Is mcdavid too good not to win a cup?

[Fatass]

Yes. Just like Dionne was too good to never win a Cup.

 

[NVious]

He's old and not as good anymore? And his teammates declined even more.

But the reason he hasn't won any series after 30 is goaltending. 2012 and 2021 goaltending collapses are something that McDavid has never had to deal with. And in 2022 they dominated but had an AHLer in net

Over the last 9 years Sid ranks 7th in points and 10th in goals. Pretty clearly a top 10 player.

Goaltending has sank Sid, so it can sink McDavid. Difference is that Sid has gotten amazing goaltending at times, McDavid never.

 

[VancouverJagger]

As distasteful as Oiler fans are I respect greatness and would actually like to see him win a Cup. It's just all the entitledness that comes with that and their fans that is pretty nauseating and hard to stomach.........

 

[syz]

Ever considered that maybe the Penguins goaltenders put up good numbers in part because of how the team in front of them played?

I am unconvinced that McDavid would buy into the system the 2017 Penguins played to win the cup.

Fleury and Murray both saved more goals than expected. The Penguins being good defensively is a myth.

 

[ManByng]

Yes. Just like Dionne was too good to never win a Cup.

I was going to reference Dionne, you're only as good as the team the GM surrounds you with. LA had some good teams in the 70's and early 80's with Dionne but not good enough to beat the Canadians, Islanders or Flyers. If McDavid never got one then I believe it wouldn't be his fault !

 

[Fatass]

I was going to reference Dionne, you're only as good as the team the GM surrounds you with. LA had some good teams in the 70's with Dionne but not good enough to beat the Canadians, Islanders or Flyers. If McDavid never got one then I believe it wouldn't be his fault !

Yup. HHOF players need teammates too. Dionne had over 1700 points! The guy was incredible. McDavid is incredible too. Imo he is in a better team currently than Dionne ever played on though.

 

[jigglysquishy]

McDavid and Dionne are three tiers apart as players. Not even close.

Dionne had 45 points across his entire playoff career. McDavid had 42 points last year.

 

[Fatass]

McDavid and Dionne are three tiers apart as players. Not even close.

Dionne had 45 points across his entire playoff career. McDavid had 42 points last year.

Different era friend with different rules. Holding, hooking, and generally mugging off the puck was okay in the Dionne years. McDavid is fabulous but so was Dionne.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Different era friend with different rules. Holding, hooking, and generally mugging off the puck was okay in the Dionne years. McDavid is fabulous but so was Dionne.

Yes the 70s and 80s. The era known for low point totals

 

[jigglysquishy]

Different era friend with different rules. Holding, hooking, and generally mugging off the puck was okay in the Dionne years. McDavid is fabulous but so was Dionne.

Hart finishes
McDavid - 1,1,1,2,3,5
Dionne - 2,3,3,5

Point finishes (deleting Gretzky)
McDavid - 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,3,6
Dionne - 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,6

Just different tiers. Dionne never came close to a season like McDavid 2021 or 2023 or 2024. Or a playoffs like McDavid 2022 or 2024. Dionne never will his team to victory like McDavid vs LA 2022.

Dionne wasn't a top 50 player all time. Probably top 75 though. McDavid is a consensus top 10 and if we're being honest, the best pick for #5.

Simply different tiers of players.

 

[Fatass]

Yes that’s why all the guys from Dionne’s eras numbers are so low …. Oh wait those are the years that hold all the records

Years with Gretzky, Mario, Lafleur, Howerchuck, Yzerman, Stasny, etc. different era with different rules. McDavid is great. But that doesn’t mean guts from other eras weren’t great too.
There aren’t many players I’d pay to see live. McDavid is the only one since prime Bure for me. Before that Mario and Wayne. Perrault and Dione. Lefleur. Orr. Very few.

 

[Fatass]

Hart finishes
McDavid - 1,1,1,2,3,5
Dionne - 2,3,3,5

Point finishes (deleting Gretzky)
McDavid - 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,3,6
Dionne - 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,6

Just different tiers. Dionne never came close to a season like McDavid 2021 or 2023 or 2024. Or a playoffs like McDavid 2022 or 2024. Dionne never will his team to victory like McDavid vs LA 2022.

Dionne wasn't a top 50 player all time. Probably top 75 though. McDavid is a consensus top 10 and if we're being honest, the best pick for #5.

Simply different tiers of players.

It’s your opinion friend. You’re welcome to it.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Years with Gretzky, Mario, Lafleur, Howerchuck, Yzerman, Stasny, etc. different era with different rules. McDavid is great. But that doesn’t mean guts from other eras weren’t great too.
There aren’t many players I’d pay to see live. McDavid is the only one since prime Bure for me. Before that Mario and Wayne. Perrault and Dione. Lefleur. Orr. Very few.

You got in before my edit but you kinda just made my point for me. All those guys put up numbers despite the different rules and Dionne put up 45 points TOTAL.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Fleury and Murray both saved more goals than expected. The Penguins being good defensively is a myth.

Expected goals? Really? Should have started with their daily horoscopes

 

[jigglysquishy]

It’s your opinion friend. You’re welcome to it.

Dionne that high up is going to be extremely uncommon.

Look at the 1998 Hockey News list.

List of 100 greatest NHL players by The Hockey News - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.m.wikipedia.org

Dionne at 38 all time. No Soviets. No one born after 1975. No pre NHLers.

Even Dionne's contemporaries viewed him as a secondary star. Direct contemporaries like Lafleur, Bossy, Trottier, Gretzky, Clarke, Dryden and Robinson are all ahead.

Look at the last HoH top 100 list. Only 30 of 32 voters had him top 100. He ended up finishing 63rd.

Thread 'Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Aggregate List'

Apr 9, 2019

Rank	Player	Lists	Points	Highest	Highest	Lowest	Lowest	Median	Eligibility	Final Ranking
1	Wayne Gretzky	32	3826	1		6	Canadiens1958	1	1-4 (10 Players)	1
2	Bobby Orr	32	3803	1		4		2	1-4 (10 Players)	3 (-1)
3	Gordie Howe	32	3782	2		4

[TBODY] ...

• quoipourquoi
• Replies: 129
• Forum: The History of Hockey

• 

Thread 'Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players'

Nov 28, 2012

From a special edition of Hockey Le Magazine. 9 other lists from longtime coaches, referees, and media members were also included. But I think Bowman's is the most interesting, considering his stature in the hockey world.

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull
11. Guy Lafleur
12. Dave Keon
13. Henri Richard
14. Mark Messier
15. Sidney Crosby
16. Raymond Bourque
17. Jacques Plante
18. Frank Mahovlich
19. Terry Sawchuk
20. Serge Savard
21. Denis Potvin
22. Glenn Hall
23...

• overpass
• Replies: 452
• Forum: The History of Hockey

Or Scotty Bowman's list. Dionne at 46 amongst Canadians only.

You can read the contemporary newspapers if you want. Dionne behind Lafleur, Trottier, Bossy is pretty evident in Dionne's prime. Obviously Gretzky is different.

Compare that to McDavid, who is unanimously considered the best of his era.

 

[Fatass]

Dionne that high up is going to be extremely uncommon.

Look at the 1998 Hockey News list.

List of 100 greatest NHL players by The Hockey News - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.m.wikipedia.org

Dionne at 38 all time. No Soviets. No one born after 1975. No pre NHLers.

Even Dionne's contemporaries viewed him as a secondary star. Direct contemporaries like Lafleur, Bossy, Trottier, Gretzky, Clarke, Dryden and Robinson are all ahead.

Look at the last HoH top 100 list. Only 30 of 32 voters had him top 100. He ended up finishing 63rd.

Thread 'Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Aggregate List'

Apr 9, 2019

Rank	Player	Lists	Points	Highest	Highest	Lowest	Lowest	Median	Eligibility	Final Ranking
1	Wayne Gretzky	32	3826	1		6	Canadiens1958	1	1-4 (10 Players)	1
2	Bobby Orr	32	3803	1		4		2	1-4 (10 Players)	3 (-1)
3	Gordie Howe	32	3782	2		4

[TBODY] ...

• quoipourquoi
• Replies: 129
• Forum: The History of Hockey

• 

Thread 'Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players'

Nov 28, 2012

From a special edition of Hockey Le Magazine. 9 other lists from longtime coaches, referees, and media members were also included. But I think Bowman's is the most interesting, considering his stature in the hockey world.

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull
11. Guy Lafleur
12. Dave Keon
13. Henri Richard
14. Mark Messier
15. Sidney Crosby
16. Raymond Bourque
17. Jacques Plante
18. Frank Mahovlich
19. Terry Sawchuk
20. Serge Savard
21. Denis Potvin
22. Glenn Hall
23...

• overpass
• Replies: 452
• Forum: The History of Hockey

Or Scotty Bowman's list. Dionne at 46 amongst Canadians only.

You can read the contemporary newspapers if you want. Dionne behind Lafleur, Trottier, Bossy is pretty evident in Dionne's prime. Obviously Gretzky is different.

Compare that to McDavid, who is unanimously considered the best of his era.[/i]

Watched all those guys play. Did you?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Watched all those guys play. Did you?

Yes.

 

[Fatass]

Yes.

Then you know.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Then you know.

Yes, I know that McDavid is much better than Dionne.

 

[Fatass]

Yes, I know that McDavid is much better than Dionne.

McDavid is great. Only guy id pay to see live since Bure. Crosby is clearly better than both but not as exciting. I saw Dionne live. Very exciting, just like McDavid. Bure was electric live too. So was Perrault. Exciting to watch with puck on stick and attacking doesn’t necessarily mean better.
Dionne has 1700 points. He played on terrible teams. He was the clubs only pkayer on many occasions. McDavid is great too.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

So we're just ignoring how scoring has gone up recently? McDavid's numbers in the playoffs were pretty poor when goalies were allowed to wear larger pads.

It was his first playoffs at age 20 on an inexperienced team. We're ready to chalk that small sample size and conclude it was the goalie pads?. Crosby never led the playoffs in points, while McDavid may well do it for the third time. Even adjusting the scoring, McDavid is a level above. His PPG increases in the playoffs, Crosby's falls quite significantly.

Ever considered that maybe the Penguins goaltenders put up good numbers in part because of how the team in front of them played?

In past years, the Oilers still had a lower SV% on non-McDavid lines. Crosby's teammates played better defense, and good on them. Before you mention the run and gun system, that doesn't explain the other lines conceding goals. The Oilers right now play a similar dump-and-chase forchecking system that the Pens played(not EXACTLY the same, but close), and McDavid bought in.

 

[Coffey]

Dionne has 1700 points.

And yet so average in the playoffs.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

Too bad McDavid is so reliant on his speed to generate offense that he cannot commit to playing as big of a role defensively as Crosby did or that he, and his team, have to be so aggressive offensively which leads to leaky team defense.

This doesn't explain why McDavid's team concedes when he's not on the ice at a much higher rate than Crosby's. McDavid being 2 goals against all series in the finals and still losing should disprove this narrative. What was he supposed to do when not on the ice to stop his team from conceding?. Also, McDavid has been playing solid defense for a few years now.

Who is arguing that Crosby did it on his own? The argument is he brought more value to his teams than McDavid and that value isn't measured solely by PPG.

The only way to argue that is to bring up vague, subjective metrics, and in that case, you can argue Crosby was more valuable than Gretzky or Lemieux because he created depth, for that matter. Crosby's line was not positive in 2016, which means the Pens needed other lines to be better. Why are we using the performance of other lines to give Crosby credit?. HBK played the way they did without Crosby, and they overplayed their abilities without Crosby. The pair elevated themselves without him. So, Crosby wasn’t single-handedly creating depth — he was operating within a system that allowed depth to shine. You can also argue that Malkin was more valuable by that logic, as he played with even worse linemates during most of his playoff runs, creating depth.

Edmonton Lines 2021-22:
Kane - McDavid- Puljujarvi
Hyman - Draisaitl - Yamamoto
Foegele - RNH - Derek Ryan

Not exactly a stacked line combination for McDavid.

 

[JJ68]

sometimes it happens.....Dale Hawerchuk never won a cup. He was great. Just never had support with the Jets.....and buffalo.....well yea, it's buffalo

 

[nbwingsfan]

Why isn't he also included in his team underperforming in Game 1 against LA? Some of the blame on a couple of the LA goals could certainly be attributed to him. Even that aside, he was pointless through 2 periods.

But the bigger points is, perhaps comparing the PPGs of Crosby vs. McDavid isn't the best inidicator of playoff performances if Crosby's teams were better positioned earlier in games and Crosby played more conservatively.

So now we’re not just removing games McDavid did get points in, but we’re now removing periods of hockey he did get points in as well?

This is so so sad.