Is mcdavid too good not to win a cup?

[Cursed Lemon]

Yea Crosby was getting dragged all tournament in 2010 until the "golden goal," something that McDavid clearly would never be able to dwait I'm being notified of something.

I never said McDavid had an international resume, but he also had the dis-privilege of only having the opportunity to play on the worst-performing Canada team in decades for 4 Nations

 

[Cool Hand Puke]

How is this thread still going?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Crosby didn't "lead" shit in the Olympics or Four Nations. He was pedestrian in 2010, Canada's two leading scorers in 2014 were defensemen, and he was downright painful to watch in both games against America in Four Nations.

Moms, don't drink.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Moms, don't drink.

Hockey "fans", watch actual hockey

 

[crowfish]

Crosby was the captain of disparate teams. So he’s clearly plug & play. He drew the toughest assignments & he got things done.

His back to back Conn Smythes were well deserved unlike McOverrated’s last year. That was a joke.

The near-unanimous Conn Smythe he won was a joke? The only joke was him beating Crosby's career high in playoff points with his assists alone.

 

[daver]

I never said McDavid had an international resume, but he also had the dis-privilege of only having the opportunity to play on the worst-performing Canada team in decades for 4 Nations

Interesting that when the torch is handed from Crosby to McDavid it becomes the "worst-performing" team in decades.

The Oilers haven’t played off the Rush this series, on the contrary the Kings played a rush game while the Oilers dump and chased more frequently. This “high-octane” offense is pretty similar to how the Pens played during those cup wins. Crosby did what he needed to win, but his bar was to play passable defense and produce star like numbers on offense… he didn’t need to climb Mount Everest.

Which he did in 2008 and 2009, the latter with notably weak linemates; a common theme through most of his career. McDavid is used like an offensive weapon, and has had Draisaitl as his most common ES linemate along with the #3/#4 forward on the Oilers.

His role in 2016 was to effectively match the other team's # 1 lines, usually loaded like the Caps and the Sharks, so the Pens could roll two other scoring lines against weaker matchups. It was as important for the other team's #1 line not to score as it was for his line, comprosed of a career 3rd liner and an AHL callup, to score. He played excellent 2-way hockey; a common theme through the 2nd half of his career. Not sure how many times this needs to be explained. He also stepped up in key moments and key times throughout that run; one oif the more dominant runs since the lockout.

 

[daver]

“His team gets results when it counts most. McDavid’s team doesn’t”. Fixed it for you. Throw Prime Crosby into any of the Oiler teams of the past 10 years, and they don’t get any closer to the cup; shows you how much of a team game hockey is. I’ve never seen a player get so much credit relative to how they performed… you’d think Crosby was averaging Gretzky numbers based on how he’s talked about in those cup runs.

2008 - Leads playoffs in scoring as a 20 year old as his team gets within two games of the Cup.

2009 - Leads playoffs in goals scored with a total that is the highest over a 20 year period ('97 to '17), sets NHL record for most 1st goal of the game with six, and has 2nd highest point total over a 20 year period ('97 to '17).

2016 - Wins Conn Smythe

2017 - Wins Conn Smythe

 

[daver]

Yea Crosby was getting dragged all tournament in 2010 until the "golden goal," something that McDavid clearly would never be able to dwait I'm being notified of something.

McDavid was dragged along by Crosby in Game 1 of the Four Nations; the best individual game by any Canadian forward in the FN.

He was being dragged along in the final until he scored his "golden goal".

 

[TheLegend27]

Interesting that when the torch is handed from Crosby to McDavid it becomes the "worst-performing" team in decades.


Which he did in 2008 and 2009, the latter with notably weak linemates; a common theme through most of his career. McDavid is used like an offensive weapon, and has had Draisaitl as his most common ES linemate along with the #3/#4 forward on the Oilers.

His role in 2016 was to effectively match the other team's # 1 lines, usually loaded like the Caps and the Sharks, so the Pens could roll two other scoring lines against weaker matchups. It was as important for the other team's #1 line not to score as it was for his line, comprosed of a career 3rd liner and an AHL callup, to score. He played excellent 2-way hockey; a common theme through the 2nd half of his career. Not sure how many times this needs to be explained. He also stepped up in key moments and key times throughout that run; one oif the more dominant runs since the lockout.

None are denying any of this, all of this is accurate, but there’s two main issues with this.

1. Giving full credit to Crosby for the success of the HBK line. We can give Crosby context points, yet everyone on the second and third line had to step up, even if they’re playing weaker competition due to spreading out the talent. If it’s such a viable strategy, why didn’t the Penguins employ it in the regular season? You might win the President trophy, get home Ice and easier matchups. It’s because relying on a lower talent third line scoring while your first line is a negative is usually not a winning strategy. What you’re saying is Crosby had a better playoffs than the stats suggest because Phil Kessel drove his line well… not Crosby’s on ice ability?.

2. Implying that this could be replicated for the Oilers. That third line over preformed expectations so massively that it shouldn’t be used as a standard. McDavid was plus 15 last playoffs, are you willing to bet that the Oilers would be better had he been separated from Drai, given fourth line scrubs and was a -2 instead?. There is no guarantee that Hyman and say, Kane preform well enough on the third line to cover up the deficit.

By the way, McDavid was on ice for 2ga the entire Stanley cup finals… he’s deployed as an offensive weapon that concedes 2 goals against in 150 ish minutes of ice time?. Sounds like a bargain.

 

[daver]

None are denying any of this, all of this is accurate, but there’s two main issues with this.

1. Giving full credit to Crosby for the success of the HBK line. We can give Crosby context points, everyone on the second and third line had to step up, even if they’re playing weaker competition due to spreading out the talent. If it’s such a viable strategy, why didn’t the Penguins employ it in the regular season? You might win the President trophy, get home I’ve and easier matchups. It’s because relying on a lower talent third line scoring while your first line is a negative is usually not a winning strategy. There was a high degree of puck luck involved during those playoffs to make it work.

First and foremost,

1. Who cares about the regular season when you have won the Cup? No losing playoff team looks back towards the regular season as the reason they lost.

2. Since you seem to have reached the "throw shit against the wall and see what sticks" stage, perhaps do some research about what happened in that regular season first. The Pens hired Sullivan in mid-December and put togther the HBK line in late March. They were 3rd in points overall after his hiring while Crosby returned to being the league's best player.

3. What "puck luck" ??? The Pens were the 2nd best puck possession Cup winner since the lockout. They were never in trouble that playoff save for TBay making it somewhat close but the Pens dominated them in Game 7. They got in trouble like Team Canada got in trouble in the 2014 Olympics; another Crosby-lead team that employed a dominant puck possession strategy. Do you see a pattern here?

4. 2017 was more of the same. The Pens loaded up the 2nd line with Kessel and Malkin while Crosby had another AHL callup on his line.

Meanwhile the Oilers have reverted back to loading up McDavid with the league's best regular season player this playoff because he is not producing on his own line.

 

[daver]

2. Implying that this could be replicated for the Oilers. That third line over preformed expectations so massively that it shouldn’t be used as a standard. McDavid was plus 15 last playoffs, are you willing to bet that the Oilers would be better had he been separated from Drai, given fourth line scrubs and was a -2 instead?. There is no guarantee that Hyman and say, Kane preform well enough on the third line to cover up the deficit.

By the way, McDavid was on ice for 2ga the entire Stanley cup finals… he’s deployed as an offensive weapon that concedes 2 goals against in 150 ish minutes of ice time?. Sounds like a bargain.

You always seem to be conveniently forgetting that Crosby carried a line that had signicantly weaker linemates than McDavid ever had, even when not playing with Draisatl, in 2009.

I can't blame you for losing track of things given Crosby has three Cups and four major international titles on his resume.

 

[TheLegend27]

First and foremost,

1. Who cares about the regular season when you have won the Cup? No losing playoff team looks back towards the regular season as the reason they lost.

2. Since you seem to have reached the "throw shit against the wall and see what sticks" stage, perhaps do some research about what happened in that regular season first. The Pens hired Sullivan in mid-December and put togther the HBK line in late March. They were 3rd in points overall after his hiring while Crosby returned to being the league's best player.

3. What "puck luck" ??? The Pens were the 2nd best puck possession Cup winner since the lockout. They were never in trouble that playoff save for TBay making it somewhat close but the Pens dominated them in Game 7. They got in trouble like Team Canada got in trouble in the 2014 Olympics; another Crosby-lead team that employed a dominant puck possession strategy. Do you see a pattern here?

4. 2017 was more of the same. The Pens loaded up the 2nd line with Kessel and Malkin while Crosby had another AHL callup on his line.

Meanwhile the Oilers have reverted back to loading up McDavid with the league's best regular season player this playoff because he is not producing on his own line.

Alright, you’ve convinced me and shown a new perspective that the 2016 run is underrated from Crosby and the Pens. It makes sense for me now. He did preform well given his line-mates and objective.

Meanwhile the Oilers have reverted back to loading up McDavid with the league's best regular season player this playoff because he is not producing on his own line.

It’s not because McDavid can’t produce on his own line, the Oilers start loading up after chasing the game from behind. The first goal often causes a change in schemes for both teams, and the Oilers have had to consistently play from behind. That’s on the goaltending and defensive mistakes of the first D Pair and the bottom two lines. It’s also the bottom two lines for their inability to score or generate any offensive looks. The plan is always to separate McDrai as long as the Oilers are winning or the score is even.

Crosby has had bad goaltending, but his wins came during historic runs by Fleury and Murray(apart from 09, Fleury was good but not great). When McDavid gets good goaltending we can judge whether he makes the most of it like Crosby has.

 

[daver]

It’s not because McDavid can’t produce on his own line, the Oilers start loading up after chasing the game from behind. The first goal often causes a change in schemes for both teams, and the Oilers have had to consistently play from behind. That’s on the goaltending and defensive mistakes of the first D Pair and the bottom two lines. It’s also the bottom two lines for their inability to score or generate any offensive looks. The plan is always to separate McDrai as long as the Oilers are winning or the score is even.

If they were able to produce consistently at ES on separate lines like Crosby and Malkin, there wouldn't be this automatic joining them at the first sign of trouble.

Their overall team defense has looked bad; not just the d-men or goalie. It's a constant theme, and not a surpising one, given how much they push trying to out offense their opponent.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Interesting that when the torch is handed from Crosby to McDavid it becomes the "worst-performing" team in decades.

Anyone who watched the two games against America in Four Nations (and is being honest) will note a complete lack of the on-ice chemistry that Canada is famous for. Passes to no one, aborted breakouts, very limited cycling, just aimless running around on the ice. None of the power players like McDavid, MacKinnon, Makar, etc. were in high gear. This includes Crosby who made several uncharacteristically terrible passes and was basically a non-factor offensively. Contrast that with 2014 in which Canada was like a cat playing with their food or even the 2016 World Cup where Crosby, Marchand, and Bergeron were basically telepathic.

 

[daver]

Anyone who watched the two games against America in Four Nations (and is being honest) will note a complete lack of the on-ice chemistry that Canada is famous for. Passes to no one, aborted breakouts, very limited cycling, just aimless running around on the ice. None of the power players like McDavid, MacKinnon, Makar, etc. were in high gear. This includes Crosby who made several uncharacteristically terrible passes and was basically a non-factor offensively. Contrast that with 2014 in which Canada was like a cat playing with their food or even the 2016 World Cup where Crosby, Marchand, and Bergeron were basically telepathic.

So Crosby in the 2014 Olympics outplayed McDavid at the Four Nations in 2025?