Is mcdavid too good not to win a cup?

[NVious]

He already is the best player to never win a cup. Only time will tell if if he ever will win one.

Personally I don't think it's possible unless he is the greediest player in NHL history and literally only cares about money (which doesn't strike me at all as his personality).

He is currently at 1.6ppg in the playoffs, even if he drops to 1ppg, that would make him the 9th best in the NHL which would basically mean into his mid-late 30s he would pretty easily be a top 10 asset for any contending team. And that's assuming a massive dropoff from 1.6 to 1.

At that point he could sign some insanely team friendly deal to stack a contender and win at least one cup. Sid's nearly 40 and still putting up insane numbers and could contribute massively should he go to a playoff team.

Anyways, I personally just don't see how anyone could blame him when he leads the league in playoff ppg (5th in gpg). When you look at that list, it's literally him/Drai and other guys who have won/won a ton. He is literally nearly at Lemieux's level (1.59 vs 1.61) and people are blaming a guy who is only behind Gretzky/Lemieux for playoff ppg. It's insanity to me, especially when you look at the decade of Edmonton's #1 D/G who are abysmal relative to the other all time greats' teams.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

So is the 1 series win in the 3 years following the 09 Cup Crosby's fault and not MAF's .891/.899/.834 save %s?

No one player is good enough to overcome .850 goaltending

Good to point out that Crosby had to deal with worse goaltending than McDavid. Yet still won cups whenever he got remotely competent play from the position.

 

[NVious]

Good to point out that Crosby had to deal with worse goaltending than McDavid. Yet still won cups whenever he got remotely competent play from the position.

Except he didn't. In between the bad runs were his good runs, Fleury being a 1st overall pick that ended up having a HOF career.

He had a 933 07-08 run and a 908 08-09 run.

Someone analyzed Skinner here:



Here are the cliffs:
Over the last three playoffs he has
-14.79GSAA 39th of 39
-8.5GSAx last of all goalies to play a game.

This is who the Oil are going with in year 10 of McDavid. So if a few years of Fleury having bad runs cost Crosby, how much more do you think the worst goalie in the playoffs in YEAR 10 of Mcdavid's career is costing McDavid?

 

[TheLegend27]

Good to point out that Crosby had to deal with worse goaltending than McDavid. Yet still won cups whenever he got remotely competent play from the position.

Still waiting for McDavid to get competent play from the position. Imagine if people took Fluery’s performances the three years after 09 and said they lost because Crosby sucks at defense… oh wait I’ve seen this take recently to blame someone similar to Crosby. Seems like a bit of double standard, Crosby losses 09-2015 are “bad goaltending, poor team defensive structure, out of touch coach”, but McDavid needs to play 200 foot.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Except he didn't. In between the bad runs were his good runs, Fleury being a 1st overall pick that ended up having a HOF career.

He had a 933 07-08 run and a 908 08-09 run.

Someone analyzed Skinner here:



Here are the cliffs:
Over the last three playoffs he has
-14.79GSAA 39th of 39
-8.5GSAx last of all goalies to play a game.

This is who the Oil are going with in year 10 of McDavid. So if a few years of Fleury having bad runs cost Crosby, how much more do you think the worst goalie in the playoffs in YEAR 10 of Mcdavid's career is costing McDavid?

Fleury had a good run in 2008. And was good in 2017 for two rounds before being replaced. He was solid in 2014 too although he completely flew blew one of the games against CBJ. 2009 was very up and down. Everything else was really bad.

Skinner had a better SV% relative to league than Fleury did in 09. Mike Smith and Cam Talbot had some good series too

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Still waiting for McDavid to get competent play from the position. Imagine if people took Fluery’s performances the three years after 09 and said they lost because Crosby sucks at defense… oh wait I’ve seen this take recently to blame someone similar to Crosby.

Good thing people have eyes then, and can separate individual performance from how the team plays in front of them. Well some of us at least.

This is quite a funny analogy though since Crosby was hurt one of those years, good one buddy.

And in 2012 Fleury had the single worst playoff series by a goalie in NHL history. On top of the team being badly outcoached which McDavid has never had to deal with.

 

[TheLegend27]

Good thing people have eyes then, and can separate individual performance from how the team plays in front of them. Well some of us at least.

This is quite a funny analogy though since Crosby was hurt one of those years, good one buddy.

And in 2012 Fleury had the single worst playoff series by a goalie in NHL history. On top of the team being badly outcoached which McDavid has never had to deal with.

Murray was 0.923 in 2016, and a whopping 0.937 in 2017. Fleurry had 0.924 in 2017. Don't you think that's miles better than any goaltending McDavid has had?. There is no reason to believe Crosby would've had these two cups if Fleury and Murray don't have outstanding playoff runs. Yes, Crosby had bad goaltending, but he didn't win in those years; he specifically won during years with historic goaltending. McDavid doesn't even get average goaltending. Crosby and the Penguins made individual mistakes during those playoffs(albeit less often than the Oilers); the difference is that Murray and Fleury were there to bail them out. By the way, Fleury was very great in 08, amazing in 2015, and pretty good in 2014, what's the narrative for those playoff losses?.

 

[daver]

Murray was 0.923 in 2016, and a whopping 0.937 in 2017. Fleurry had 0.924 in 2017. Don't you think that's miles better than any goaltending McDavid has had?. There is no reason to believe Crosby would've had these two cups if Fleury and Murray don't have outstanding playoff runs. Yes, Crosby had bad goaltending, but he didn't win in those years; he specifically won during years with historic goaltending. McDavid doesn't even get average goaltending. Crosby and the Penguins made individual mistakes during those playoffs(albeit less often than the Oilers); the difference is that Murray and Fleury were there to bail them out. By the way, Fleury was very great in 08, amazing in 2015, and pretty good in 2014, what's the narrative for those playoff losses?.

The Pens had good goaltending in 2016 the way the Wings had good goaltending in any of their four Cups. The team played excellent puck possession, 2-way hockey in front of them.

Skinner can look competent at times and bad at times too but there are also a ton of goals where you can point to terrible play by the d-corps and/or the forwards, especially this year. That being said, I wouldn't go so far as to give Crosby and the Pens more cups if goaltending was different from 2010 to 2015. A healthier Crosby/Malkin duo was more of the issue.

At the end of the day, the Oilers usually live and die by trying to outoffense their opponents; which starts with McDavid, a player who lives and dies by using his speed. He is like Jagr and Ovechkin; an offensive weapon that can take advantage of offensive opportunities like only a handful in league history could ever do but it comes at the cost of defensive lapses in trying to create those opportunities. Is it any shock that they have one of the best offensive defenseman and one of the worst defensive defensiveman in the league in Bouchard?

With Crosby, you have a player who was just as productive offensively as those players but could create opportunities without creating defensive lapses with his puck possession and grinding style. He has rightly earned his "winner" label.

Jagr never got close on his own during his prime, even with Mario, also a player who later in his career was pretty much offense only. Ovechkin notably played a competant 2-way game in the Caps only Cup run after pretty much ignoring defense for most of his career.

 

[daver]

Skinner had a better SV% relative to league than Fleury did in 09. Mike Smith and Cam Talbot had some good series too

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Out of the 15 goalies who played 18 playoff games or more over a six year period from '19 to '24, Skinner in '24 is 13th in sv% and 8th in GAA.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Out of the 17 goalies who played 18 playoff games or more over a six year period from '06 to '11, MAF in '09 is 14th in sv% and 14th in GAA.

 

[daver]

By the way, Fleury was very great in 08, amazing in 2015, and pretty good in 2014, what's the narrative for those playoff losses?.

The narrative in 2008 is that the Pens were playing great 2-way hockey going into the SCF before getting easily beat by the best Cup winner since the lockout. MAF was good but clearly not the main reason the Pens were 12-2 after the ECF. I doubt they beat the Wings in 2008 with a healthy Malkin but one does wonder.

The narrative in 2015 is the Pens were likely their weakest since 2007 and were up against a peak Rangers team and a peak Lundquist who outgoalied MAF.

The narrative in 2017 is Murray was Smythe-worthy but only played 11 games while MAF was below average in the15 games he played as the Pens were dealing with no Letang and a banged up Crosby after getting concussed in the Caps series. The Pens generally did what they had to do to win that year; a sign a great champion lead by Crosby again.

What's the narrative in 2021 for the Oilers? One goal through their first two games put the nail in the coffin.

 

[JohnnyConcussion]

McDavid will win a cup but not with the Oilers.

 

[NVious]

Fleury had a good run in 2008. And was good in 2017 for two rounds before being replaced. He was solid in 2014 too although he completely flew blew one of the games against CBJ. 2009 was very up and down. Everything else was really bad.

Skinner had a better SV% relative to league than Fleury did in 09. Mike Smith and Cam Talbot had some good series too

And that's the big difference, Fleury can turn it on.

He is a #1 overall pick so obviously he's going to have more confidence than a struggling third rounder.
He went on to have a HOF career, does Skinner even make 5 years in the NHL?
In any case, his struggles show that awful goaltending can sink the best 2 players in the game

Meanwhile Skinner is the solution to year 10 of McDrai:
No draft/winner pedigree
Never did anything special
Literally ranked worst among 39 goalies for the past 3 years

 

[McShogun99]

Except he didn't. In between the bad runs were his good runs, Fleury being a 1st overall pick that ended up having a HOF career.

He had a 933 07-08 run and a 908 08-09 run.

Someone analyzed Skinner here:



Here are the cliffs:
Over the last three playoffs he has
-14.79GSAA 39th of 39
-8.5GSAx last of all goalies to play a game.

This is who the Oil are going with in year 10 of McDavid. So if a few years of Fleury having bad runs cost Crosby, how much more do you think the worst goalie in the playoffs in YEAR 10 of Mcdavid's career is costing McDavid?

Mcdavid has only had 1 year of elite goaltending, Talbot in 2016-17. Since then it's been average to bad.

 

[RogerRoger]

Except he didn't. In between the bad runs were his good runs, Fleury being a 1st overall pick that ended up having a HOF career.

He had a 933 07-08 run and a 908 08-09 run.

Someone analyzed Skinner here:



Here are the cliffs:
Over the last three playoffs he has
-14.79GSAA 39th of 39
-8.5GSAx last of all goalies to play a game.

This is who the Oil are going with in year 10 of McDavid. So if a few years of Fleury having bad runs cost Crosby, how much more do you think the worst goalie in the playoffs in YEAR 10 of Mcdavid's career is costing McDavid?

I wished he analyzed Skinner's play with Bouchard off the ice.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Murray was 0.923 in 2016, and a whopping 0.937 in 2017. Fleurry had 0.924 in 2017. Don't you think that's miles better than any goaltending McDavid has had?. There is no reason to believe Crosby would've had these two cups if Fleury and Murray don't have outstanding playoff runs. Yes, Crosby had bad goaltending, but he didn't win in those years; he specifically won during years with historic goaltending. McDavid doesn't even get average goaltending. Crosby and the Penguins made individual mistakes during those playoffs(albeit less often than the Oilers); the difference is that Murray and Fleury were there to bail them out. By the way, Fleury was very great in 08, amazing in 2015, and pretty good in 2014, what's the narrative for those playoff losses?.

2008 they lost in the finals to probably the best team of the century so far - and they were a super young team. Crosby/Malkin/Staal/Fleury were only 20/21/19/23.

2014 they choked away a 3-1 lead against the rags. Bylsma and Shero get fired.

2015 tons of injuries and Mike Johnston was an awful coach.

Year to year a lot of variables can derail cup ambitions. That's why it's important to put the team in a position to contend every year and hope you break through a few times. Edmonton simply doesn't address their weaknesses. Year after year.

 

[Fataldogg]

Not with Skinner in net. His entire prime he hasn't had an NHL caliber goalie in net. Skinner is an .889 in 37 career playoff games. How are you supposed to win a Cup with garbage goaltendihg like that?

Its baffling that they haven't made a move for a legitimate goalie this whole time.

 

[Fataldogg]

Lol he's good but he and his team have to deliver. For whatever reason he hasn't yet, perhaps his speed-oriented play style isn't as conducive to success in the post-season? But no, I wouldn't rate him as too good to not win a Cup.

He scored 42 points last season in the playoffs. Its quite conducive to playoff success. He won the Conn Smythe. You aren't going to win a Cup when your goalies can't stop a beach ball. The onus falls on management for never finding an adequate goalie during his prime. I'm not saying they need to get a prime Henrik Lundqvist, Carey Price, Rask, etc, but they need to get someone who is at least average.

 

[geebster]

The solution has always seemed obvious: they need an actual reliable star goalie. Using a below average goalie that you hope gets hot at the right time isnt a recipe for success unless you have a defense and forward group that can make up for when that goalie isn't hot. Honestly feel bad at how they've tried to big brain moneyball the goaltending only to fail miserably over and over.

Also goaltending coach seems to be a position of weakness. There are several teams who have had long stretches of every single goalie they sign being competent. Before Ian Clark stepped back this season, the Canucks were out of NHL goalies in the playoffs and still almost beat the Oilers. The Oilers have the opposite where you can more or less guarantee anyone who steps in will be mediocre.

 

[PainForShane]

This conversation has gotten so weird.

The main reason McDavid hasn't won a cup yet is because he went scoreless last year in game 7. It's that simple.

If he'd scored a couple points in that game -- which everyone expected him to -- then Edmonton would've won the cup. And by the way, if you're generally regarded as the best offensive player of your generation, it's your job to get on the scoresheet.

But yeah, let's blame Skinner. McDavid goes pointless in losing a 1-goal game, of course it's because of Stuart Skinner! smh.

***

Now this year? Sure. But if Skinner doesn't turn it around this series, then going forward I'm sure Edmonton will find a different goalie, then we'll see what happens. In the meantime, Skinner wasn't the reason Edm lost game 7 last year and frankly speaking I'm amazed that multiple ppl are blaming the goalie for McDavid's lack of offense when it mattered most.

 

[Dr Pepper]

This conversation has gotten so weird.

The main reason McDavid hasn't won a cup yet is because he went scoreless last year in game 7. It's that simple.

If he'd scored a couple points in that game -- which everyone expected him to -- then Edmonton would've won the cup. And by the way, if you're generally regarded as the best offensive player of your generation, it's your job to get on the scoresheet.

But yeah, let's blame Skinner. McDavid goes pointless in losing a 1-goal game, of course it's because of Stuart Skinner! smh.

***

Now this year? Sure. But if Skinner doesn't turn it around this series, then going forward I'm sure Edmonton will find a different goalie, then we'll see what happens. In the meantime, Skinner wasn't the reason Edm lost game 7 last year and frankly speaking I'm amazed that multiple ppl are blaming the goalie for McDavid's lack of offense when it mattered most.

Quite the leap you just made there.....no guarantee at all Edmonton wins last year, even if McJesus had a more noticeable game on the scoresheet.

Florida was just the better team.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

And that's the big difference, Fleury can turn it on.

He is a #1 overall pick so obviously he's going to have more confidence than a struggling third rounder.
He went on to have a HOF career, does Skinner even make 5 years in the NHL?
In any case, his struggles show that awful goaltending can sink the best 2 players in the game

Meanwhile Skinner is the solution to year 10 of McDrai:
No draft/winner pedigree
Never did anything special
Literally ranked worst among 39 goalies for the past 3 years

You are posting from a different reality.

Fleury has always had confidence issues. Fleury did sink the 2 best players in the game. He has the worst 4 year playoff stretch ever, right in the middle of Crosby's peak.

 

[PainForShane]

Quite the leap you just made there.....no guarantee at all Edmonton wins last year, even if McJesus had a more noticeable game on the scoresheet.

Florida was just the better team.

It's not really much of a leap at all, they lost by a goal while McDavid was held completely off the scoresheet. If McDavid scores two points then most likely Edm wins 3-2.

But sure, it's not a guarantee that Edm wins that game if McDavid shows up on the scoresheet, maybe Florida makes a push or something. To me, the outcome seems likely but like you said, not guaranteed. However he didn't do that, instead he was held pointless while being a complete non-factor for the first two and a half periods of that game. Most of that blame has to fall on him.

***

Anyway the main point was that repeatedly blaming Skinner for McDavid's lack of production in last year's game 7 (and therefore Edmonton's lack of cup) just seems dumb.

 

[Cup Or Bust]

This conversation has gotten so weird.

The main reason McDavid hasn't won a cup yet is because he went scoreless last year in game 7. It's that simple.

If he'd scored a couple points in that game -- which everyone expected him to -- then Edmonton would've won the cup. And by the way, if you're generally regarded as the best offensive player of your generation, it's your job to get on the scoresheet.

But yeah, let's blame Skinner. McDavid goes pointless in losing a 1-goal game, of course it's because of Stuart Skinner! smh.

***

Now this year? Sure. But if Skinner doesn't turn it around this series, then going forward I'm sure Edmonton will find a different goalie, then we'll see what happens. In the meantime, Skinner wasn't the reason Edm lost game 7 last year and frankly speaking I'm amazed that multiple ppl are blaming the goalie for McDavid's lack of offense when it mattered most.

No teams top star is their best player every single game and responsible for winning every single game. Expecting McDavid to win the game for the Oilers every single time is crazy. The game winning goal in game 7 was a weak garbage goal and all Skinner's fault. You are not going to win every game 5-4, sometimes you need to win a tight, low scoring game, especially in the playoffs, and you can't afford to have a starting goalie who regularly gives up weak goals at key times in games. Skinner has done this since he entered the NHL, and he was lousy for most of the playoffs last season. I believe he has some of the worst playoff goalie stats in the entire salary cap era for goalies.

I don't blame him for how this years series is going but he is a liability and shouldn't be a Cup contenders starting goalie.

 

[NVious]

You are posting from a different reality.

Fleury has always had confidence issues. Fleury did sink the 2 best players in the game. He has the worst 4 year playoff stretch ever, right in the middle of Crosby's peak.

Nah you're trying to spin things.

It's year 10 of McDavid and the Oilers had a chance to get a better goalie than a 3rd round pick that was near the bottom of goalie performances last year, they chose otherwise.

You can try and explain away Fleury's good performances/his pedigree/his HOF career, but those are things that actually happened.

Skinner has never had a good playoffs
Skinner has no pedigree coming into the NHL
Skinner is by far the worst goalie in the last 3 playoffs

It's funny you talk about Fleury sinking Crosby, but Skinner being way worse is ignored.

 

[NVious]

This conversation has gotten so weird.

The main reason McDavid hasn't won a cup yet is because he went scoreless last year in game 7. It's that simple.

If he'd scored a couple points in that game -- which everyone expected him to -- then Edmonton would've won the cup. And by the way, if you're generally regarded as the best offensive player of your generation, it's your job to get on the scoresheet.

But yeah, let's blame Skinner. McDavid goes pointless in losing a 1-goal game, of course it's because of Stuart Skinner! smh.

***

Now this year? Sure. But if Skinner doesn't turn it around this series, then going forward I'm sure Edmonton will find a different goalie, then we'll see what happens. In the meantime, Skinner wasn't the reason Edm lost game 7 last year and frankly speaking I'm amazed that multiple ppl are blaming the goalie for McDavid's lack of offense when it mattered most.

McDavid is near Lemieux levels playoff production
Skinner is one of the worst goalies in recent playoffs

Obviously McDavid needs to step up and become Gretzky, his poor Lemieux efforts aren't cutting it.