Is Matthews underrated on these boards?

[IBeL34f]

It seemed to me that most non leaf fans on hfboards saw him precisely for what he was at the time, and rated him accordingly. A mediocre one dimensional winger who averaged 70 points who had the potential to be lethal in the proper situation.

I don't understand the confusion. When Kessel was mediocre, everybody thought that he was mediocre. When Kessel took the next step and started winning cups left right and centre, everybody acknowledged it. To claim that it's all just "anti leaf bias" is pure sillyness.

If the only thing separating a mediocre one-dimensional winger from being lethal is the proper situation, don't you think it's possible that the player was never mediocre at all, but was always lethal and simply in the wrong situation?
To suggest that he suddenly became a different player when he went from a bottom-feeder to one of the closest arguments for a modern-day Dynasty seems far-fetched. As far as I can tell, he's still the same ol' Phil.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Kessel hasn't changed much...he's still pretty much who he is...an elite, game-breaking scoring 1st line winger with good vision and underrated passing ability. He was mocked and hated when he was a Leaf, surrounded by mostly a cast of misfits at the time and still produced at a high level...there was also unfair expectation placed on his shoulders as a winger because of what Burke gave up for him. If Nylander could produce like Kessel did with Bozak as his centre instead of Matthews, would you think he's a dud? From the hate Kessel got, you would think he's a dud. It was objectivity out the window when Kessel was a Leaf.

Kessel was mocked for most the regular season his first year on the Pens as well. Was that just "Pens hate"?

You know what changed the mockery? Winning two cups while putting up Conn Smythe worthy numbers both post seasons.

What is possibly confusing about this? Win two cups while putting up Conn Smythe numbers... and people will think you're better. How is that possibly confusing?

 

[Morbo]

Yep. Playing well in 7 playoff games as a leaf spanning 6 seasons should have garnered him the precise same amount of league wide respect as winning two cups in a row while putting up Conn Smythe type numbers.

Just listen to yourself...

you should listen more carefully. first nobody said that, second are we not counting Boston as well? I was.

fact is, you're a prime example of a guy who ran his mouth endlessly about Kessel and got embarassed, plain and simple.

still can't deal with it today.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If the only thing separating a mediocre one-dimensional winger from being lethal is the proper situation, don't you think it's possible that the player was never mediocre at all, but was always lethal and simply in the wrong situation?
To suggest that he suddenly became a different player when he went from a bottom-feeder to one of the closest arguments for a modern-day Dynasty seems far-fetched. As far as I can tell, he's still the same ol' Phil.

Saying Kessel could be elite in the proper situation is far different than Kessel actually doing it.

Now that Kessel has won 2 cups while putting up Conn Smythe worthy numbers, people think he's better. How is that in any way hypocritical or confusing?

 

[Menzinger]

Let's not make it Kessel. Let's make it literally anybody else.

Imagine this player averaged 70 points a season but had "suspect" defensive play. Now, imagine that player gets traded, and then wins two cups in a row while putting up Conn Smythe numbers both post seasons. Wouldn't said player now have a much more positive reputation league wide? You know... due to the two cup wins and two Conn Smythe worthy post seasons? Wouldn't people, league wide, respect that player more? Or would that just be "leaf hate"?

It would depend on if the player was performing at any higher level after switching from one team to the next. If there had been little change in his level of play than that player should have deserved that reputation prior to the trade.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

you should listen more carefully. first nobody said that, second are we not counting Boston as well? I was.

fact is, you're a prime example of a guy who ran his mouth endlessly about Kessel and got embarassed, plain and simple.

still can't deal with it today.

I still can't deal with it? I've argued on this board that Kessel was robbed of a Conn Smythe that first cup win. He deserved it. Sure doesn't sound like somebody that hates Kessel.

The argument in this thread: "People only think Kessel is good now because of leaf hate."

My argument: "People think Kessel is good now because he just won two cups in a row while putting up Conn Smythe worthy numbers."

It's pretty easy to see which of those two are arguments is more silly.

 

[IBeL34f]

Saying Kessel could be elite in the proper situation is far different than Kessel actually doing it.

Now that Kessel has won 2 cups while putting up Conn Smythe worthy numbers, people think he's better. How is that in any way hypocritical or confusing?

Because people judging players based on actually watching them can distinguish when an elite player is simply in a bad situation.
You're even saying it yourself, perception has changed based on the situation - If you're judging the player, it should be based on that player's merit, not the situation they're in. Perception changing so drastically based solely on the situation suggests that there's a problem with the way people are perceiving that player.

 

[Superstar]

Kessel was mocked for most the regular season his first year on the Pens as well. Was that just "Pens hate"?

You know what changed the mockery? Winning two cups while putting up Conn Smythe worthy numbers both post seasons.

What is possibly confusing about this? Win two cups while putting up Conn Smythe numbers... and people will think you're better. How is that possibly confusing?

Kessel was a PPG playoff performer (6 goals, 11 pts in 11 games, no small feat) even before he joined the Leafs (I mentioned that in my edited post) and scored 36 goals (60 pts) in 70 games as a 21 year old for the Bruins...produced year after year as a Leaf with Bozak as his centreman...he was the least of our problems when he was a Leaf...yet he was the perennial whipping boy with fans, non-fans, the media, even on national TV...there's no denial of that...embarrassing really.

I'm sure winning 2 Cups help with the perception, but that doesn't change who Kessel is as a player...he was treated unfairly when he was Leaf, and that's not due to any objectivity...only now, Kessel could shove the hate and some hotdogs down their throats while drinking from those 2 Cups.

I'll end it here, as this is a Matthews thread.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

It would depend on if the player was performing at any higher level after switching from one team to the next. If there had been little change in his level of play than that player should have deserved that reputation prior to the trade.

It was hard to call Kessel a playoff warrior when he only had 20 playoff games spanning 9 years.

In comparison, he just played fifty playoff games over a mere two seasons. And he just so happened to win two cups while putting up Conn Smythe numbers.

So Kessel proved he was a playoff warrior these past two years. Something he hadn't had the opportunity to do prior.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Kessel was a PPG playoff performer even before he joined the Leafs (I mentioned that in my edited post) and scored 36 goals (60 pts) in 70 games as a 20 year old for the Bruins...produced year after year as a Leaf with Bozak as his centreman...he was the least of our problems when he was a Leaf...yet he was the perennial whipping boy with fans, non-fans, the media, even on national TV...there's no denial of that...embarrassing really.

I'm sure winning 2 Cups help with the perception, but that doesn't change who Kessel is as a player...he was treated unfairly when he was Leaf, and that's not due to any objectivity...only now, Kessel could shove the hate and some hotdogs down their throats while drinking from those 2 Cups.

I'll end it here, as this is a Matthews thread.

As I just wrote above, it's hard to call a player with 20 playoff games in his 9 year career a "playoff warrior". The sample size was far too small.

But he's just played fifty playoff games in the past two seasons. He won two cups. He put up Conn Smythe worthy numbers. That's quite a bit more than 20 games in 9 years. And it's affected the way people think about him.

What a silly argument. It's apparently not the two cup wins and Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs that made people respect Kessel more. Nope. Nothing to do with those cups. What was it that won him his respect? "Leaf hate".

It's just so silly.

 

[Skin Tape Session]

Kessel was mocked for most the regular season his first year on the Pens as well. Was that just "Pens hate"?

You know what changed the mockery? Winning two cups while putting up Conn Smythe worthy numbers both post seasons.

What is possibly confusing about this? Win two cups while putting up Conn Smythe numbers... and people will think you're better. How is that possibly confusing?

He put up those numbers against second and third pairing d men. He couldn't hang with sid, he couldn't hang with geno. There is a reason Kessel has been traded twice. I do not believe for a second that Phil is a locker room cancer but I also would not want to be stranded and have just Phil to help us survive.

He would have been the second best player of his generation if he applied himself. Guy can skate, and has one of the best shots ever. Problem is he is lazy, unmotivated, gets down on himself and disappears when he is the guy. I do not miss him and I do not look back on his time fondly.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Because people judging players based on actually watching them can distinguish when an elite player is simply in a bad situation.
You're even saying it yourself, perception has changed based on the situation - If you're judging the player, it should be based on that player's merit, not the situation they're in. Perception changing so drastically based solely on the situation suggests that there's a problem with the way people are perceiving that player.

Do you really think that that is something special to just leaf players? It's so silly.

A player having the potential to put up Conn Smyth numbers while winning two cups is not the same as a player actually doing it.

Kessel has done it now. People respect him more now. It has nothing to do with "leaf hate", as is the topic of this thread.

 

[Menzinger]

It was hard to call Kessel a playoff warrior when he only had 20 playoff games spanning 9 years.

In comparison, he just played fifty playoff games over a mere two seasons. And he just so happened to win two cups while putting up Conn Smythe numbers.

So Kessel proved he was a playoff warrior these past two years. Something he hadn't had the opportunity to do prior.

He was a near PPG in his playoff sample size prior to the trade (high scoring at the Olymoics too)

The Kessel in the Pens is the same guy he was with the Leafs. He’s gotten more opportunity to showcase himself, but to anyone paying attention, he’s just Phil being Phil.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

He was a near PPG in his playoff sample size prior to the trade (high scoring at the Olymoics too)

The Kessel in the Pens is the same guy he was with the Leafs. He’s gotten more opportunity to showcase himself, but to anyone paying attention, he’s just Phil being Phil.

Take a typical player that's average 70 points and barely ever played in the playoffs in their career up to that point.

Now imagine that player just won two cups in a row while putting up Conn Smythe worthy numbers.

Will people respect that player more as a result?

I mean... it's just silly that I even need to ask that question.

 

[IBeL34f]

Do you really think that that is something special to just leaf players? It's so silly.

A player having the potential to put up Conn Smyth numbers while winning two cups is not the same as a player actually doing it.

Kessel has done it now. People respect him more now. It has nothing to do with "leaf hate", as is the topic of this thread.

Lots of players get tons and tons of League-wide respect despite not winning Cups or Conn Smythes. That Kessel was on a bottom-feeding team incapable of competing for a Stanley Cup is not his fault, and people who judge players based on their abilities as players recognize things like that.

Kessel was 23rd in the League in PPG between 2009/10 and 2014/15 (0.88) and is 23rd in the League in PPG from 2015/16 to today (0.88).

I'm not making that up, his production with Pittsburgh is literally the exact same as it was with Toronto.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

He was a near PPG in his playoff sample size prior to the trade (high scoring at the Olymoics too)

The Kessel in the Pens is the same guy he was with the Leafs. He’s gotten more opportunity to showcase himself, but to anyone paying attention, he’s just Phil being Phil.

If Kessel put up conn Smythe numbers with the leafs two years in a row, while winning two cups, do you think the rest of the league would still undervalue him due to “leaf hate?”

 

[cupcrazyman]

Matthews is the greatest thing since sliced bread !

Seriously,I think too many of us look at his points & say meh but i trust Babcock even though it may take the shine off of Matthews winning a lot of individual awards.

 

[IBeL34f]

If Kessel put up conn Smythe numbers with the leafs two years in a row, while winning two cups, do you think the rest of the league would still undervalue him due to “leaf hate?”

Kessel's Playoff production with Boston - 15GP, 15P, 1.00PPG
Kessel's Playoff production with Toronto - 7GP, 6P, 0.86PPG
Kessel's Playoff production with Pittsburgh - 49GP, 45P, 0.92PPG

The only thing that changes about Kessel is where he plays. If perception is changing, there's a problem with the perception, or the people doing the perceiving. Whether that has anything to do with anti-Leafs bias or not is beyond me, I can't speak for the motivations of other peoples' perceptions. But if people think Kessel magically became a different player now that he's in Pittsburgh on a Championship team, I don't think those people have been paying attention to Kessel at all.

If your argument proves anything, it's that people should watch players and judge them for themselves based on those players' talents, rather than paying attention to what other people think, because popular opinion might not be watching all that closely.

 

[Gallagbi]

As I just wrote above, it's hard to call a player with 20 playoff games in his 9 year career a "playoff warrior". The sample size was far too small.

Wasn't hard for anyone paying attention to call him that. And in typical Kessel fashion.

What a silly argument. It's apparently not the two cup wins and Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs that made people respect Kessel more. Nope. Nothing to do with those cups. What was it that won him his respect? "Leaf hate".

It's just so silly.

So his play has been steady in the playoffs, but his reputation changed based on his team result.

 

[Menzinger]

As I just wrote above, it's hard to call a player with 20 playoff games in his 9 year career a "playoff warrior". The sample size was far too small.

But he's just played fifty playoff games in the past two seasons. He won two cups. He put up Conn Smythe worthy numbers. That's quite a bit more than 20 games in 9 years. And it's affected the way people think about him.

What a silly argument. It's apparently not the two cup wins and Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs that made people respect Kessel more. Nope. Nothing to do with those cups. What was it that won him his respect? "Leaf hate".

It's just so silly.

And again, his level of play hasn’t. Hanged, @IBeL13f ‘s post above shows the numbers clear as day.

Which means people either weren’t paying attention to Phil as a Leaf (seems unlikely), or there’s another dynamic at play....

 

[LeafFever]

If Kessel put up conn Smythe numbers with the leafs two years in a row, while winning two cups, do you think the rest of the league would still undervalue him due to “leaf hate?”

Can you please explain why people on the main board now deny they ever hated Kessel? If it wasn't Leaf hate, why would they deny this only to have Leaf fans constantly bring up old threads and embarrass them? Seriously, they now have changed history where only Leaf fans ever criticized Kessel. It is pretty unbelievable. Not a single person has givne the answer they now like him more because of the cup wins.
Do you honestly think in Florida or Arizona Kessel would have gotten the same criticism? It was completely ridiculous and over-the-top. Of course it was due to the team he played for.

 

[LeafFever]

Do you really think that that is something special to just leaf players? It's so silly.

A player having the potential to put up Conn Smyth numbers while winning two cups is not the same as a player actually doing it.

Kessel has done it now. People respect him more now. It has nothing to do with "leaf hate", as is the topic of this thread.

You believe the Kessel criticism was normal then? Because I have never seen anything like it. The main board acted like their team won the cup he night he was picked last at the all-star game. Anyone remember that?
You keep bringing up why you believe he is no longer hated(The cups). But you fail to explain why he was hated so much in the first place. I think I know why...

 

[hotpaws]

You believe the Kessel criticism was normal then? Because I have never seen anything like it. The main board acted like their team won the cup he night he was picked last at the all-star game. Anyone remember that?
You keep bringing up why you believe he is no longer hated(The cups). But you fail to explain why he was hated so much in the first place. I think I know why...

you weren't a member when Kessel was a Leaf , so wtf are you talking about ?

surely you weren't banned then registered under a different account

 

[LeafFever]

you weren't a member when Kessel was a Leaf , so wtf are you talking about ?

surely you weren't banned then registered under a different account

I was here. The hate was unbelievable. There are people who view before they register and decide to start posting.
Are you really going to try to deny it? There are so many hilarious threads to bump...

 

[hotpaws]

I was here. The hate was unbelievable. There are people who view before they register and decide to start posting.
Are you really going to try to deny it? There are so many hilarious threads to bump...

i'll take your word that you were viewing this board for years before you joined

The thing you don't understand is the main boards don't hate the Leafs , they hate our fans . It's not that we're any worse than any other fan base , it's just that there's a lot more of us.