Is Matthews underrated on these boards?

[LeafFever]

i'll take your word that you were viewing this board for years before you joined

The thing you don't understand is the main boards don't hate the Leafs , they hate our fans . It's not that we're any worse than any other fan base , it's just that there's a lot more of us.

If you travel around the country you'll see people just hate anything with the word "Toronto" infront of it.
why they hate does not matter, that hate makes them underrate Leaf players horribly.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Well he did finish 10th in the poll. (Much to the chagrin of some usual suspects). I think him not being top ten would be a joke. He scored the second most goals in the league last year, would be a serious rocket richard trophy threat with proper ice time and not missing ten games this year, and has some incredibly dominant underlying defensive numbers. (GF% and GF% rel especially stand out).

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Kessel's Playoff production with Boston - 15GP, 15P, 1.00PPG
Kessel's Playoff production with Toronto - 7GP, 6P, 0.86PPG
Kessel's Playoff production with Pittsburgh - 49GP, 45P, 0.92PPG

The only thing that changes about Kessel is where he plays. If perception is changing, there's a problem with the perception, or the people doing the perceiving. Whether that has anything to do with anti-Leafs bias or not is beyond me, I can't speak for the motivations of other peoples' perceptions. But if people think Kessel magically became a different player now that he's in Pittsburgh on a Championship team, I don't think those people have been paying attention to Kessel at all.

If your argument proves anything, it's that people should watch players and judge them for themselves based on those players' talents, rather than paying attention to what other people think, because popular opinion might not be watching all that closely.

Kessel playing 20 playoff games spanning 9 years hardly proved he was a playoff warrior. It proved nothing. Nothing at all.

Want to know what proved he was a playoff warrior? Back to back conn smythe worthy cup wins. So now that he's an actual proven playoff warrior, people respect him more. Again, how is that possibly confusing?

Look at how different this is:
1: "Kessel is a 70 point player that's barely proven himself in the playoffs." (20 games spanning 9 years).
2: "Kessel is a 70 point player that just put up two conn smythe worthy cup wins."
It's a joke.

And then you end your post by saying we should all just observe and assess players for ourselves. Yeah, that sure works well for most sports fans. The same leaf fans that were "right" about Kessel based on their observations were dead wrong about 1000 other players.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Wasn't hard for anyone paying attention to call him that. And in typical Kessel fashion.


So his play has been steady in the playoffs, but his reputation changed based on his team result.

His reputation changed based on 2 conn smythe worthy seasons. His playoff sample size was far too small up to then.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

And again, his level of play hasn’t. Hanged, @IBeL13f ‘s post above shows the numbers clear as day.

Which means people either weren’t paying attention to Phil as a Leaf (seems unlikely), or there’s another dynamic at play....

Or maybe that the sample size was too small? 20 playoff games over 9 seasons is a joke.

Make no mistake about it... if Kessel with the leafs scored almost 50 points in 2 playoff seasons leading to two cups, he would have garnered league wide respect.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Can you please explain why people on the main board now deny they ever hated Kessel? If it wasn't Leaf hate, why would they deny this only to have Leaf fans constantly bring up old threads and embarrass them? Seriously, they now have changed history where only Leaf fans ever criticized Kessel. It is pretty unbelievable. Not a single person has givne the answer they now like him more because of the cup wins.
Do you honestly think in Florida or Arizona Kessel would have gotten the same criticism? It was completely ridiculous and over-the-top. Of course it was due to the team he played for.

I don't think most people ever hated Kessel. They just thought he was a one dimensional peripheral 70 point averaging winger. Which is what he was. When he became more than that, they thought more of him. How is that possibly confusing?

 

[Nithoniniel]

Kessel as a playoff performer had nothing to do with numbers, in my opinion, so not sure sample size matters. He was deemed as such because you could actually see a very tangible difference in his game come playoff time. His work ethic increased by a lot, the shortcuts disappeared, and he applied himself in a way that he never did otherwise. A good example would be how he avoided Chara as the plague in every game against Boston over several year. He'd pull up short, keep to other parts of the ice, and give up on the puck if Chara engaged him. Suddenly it was playoffs, and Kessel looked like he was going to run through Chara if he placed himself in his way. Instead of avoiding him, he'd target him.

I can't think of any other player that changes as noticeably in playoffs as Phil does.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Regardless...

This thread seems to suggest that people respect Kessel more now due to "Leaf Hate" and not his two conn smythe deserving cup wins.

It's just such a silly argument to make.

 

[IBeL34f]

Kessel playing 20 playoff games spanning 9 years hardly proved he was a playoff warrior. It proved nothing. Nothing at all.

Want to know what proved he was a playoff warrior? Back to back conn smythe worthy cup wins. So now that he's an actual proven playoff warrior, people respect him more. Again, how is that possibly confusing?

Look at how different this is:
1: "Kessel is a 70 point player that's barely proven himself in the playoffs." (20 games spanning 9 years).
2: "Kessel is a 70 point player that just put up two conn smythe worthy cup wins."
It's a joke.

And then you end your post by saying we should all just observe and assess players for ourselves. Yeah, that sure works well for most sports fans. The same leaf fans that were "right" about Kessel based on their observations were dead wrong about 1000 other players.

Phil Kessel is not solely responsible for the amount of Playoff games he's played. Judge him based on his contributions, not based on the team around him.

If someone judging Kessel is unable to separate the circumstances to see that Kessel was always Elite, then the problem lies with the person doing the judging, not with Kessel.

If the criticisms surrounding Kessel when he was with Toronto were simply that he hadn't done enough in the Playoffs to prove how elite he was, then you might have an argument, but that's far from the case. Some people called him an "uncoachable cancer" for Christ's sake - that's a pretty far cry from suggesting that the only thing keeping him from being an elite player respected by fans world-wide is a larger sample size in the Playoffs.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Phil Kessel is not solely responsible for the amount of Playoff games he's played. Judge him based on his contributions, not based on the team around him.

If someone judging Kessel is unable to separate the circumstances to see that Kessel was always Elite, then the problem lies with the person doing the judging, not with Kessel.

If the criticisms surrounding Kessel when he was with Toronto were simply that he hadn't done enough in the Playoffs to prove how elite he was, then you might have an argument, but that's far from the case. Some people called him an "uncoachable cancer" for Christ's sake - that's a pretty far cry from suggesting that the only thing keeping him from being an elite player respected by fans world-wide is a larger sample size in the Playoffs.

Sure. It's not Kessel's fault that he wasn't in more playoff games. Regardless, the sample size was too small. He's not a playoff warrior until he proves it. Even if it's not his fault he wasn't given the opportunity.

The criticisms of Kessel when he was a leaf was that he was a one dimensional 70 point averaging winger who was mostly unproven in the playoffs. Of course that reputation will change after 2 conn smythe worthy cup wins. How could that possibly be confusing?

And sure, there were some fringe people that hated Kessel unreasonably. But Crosby has those. So does Ovechkin. Heck, some leaf fans had unreasonable hate for Sundin back in the day.

You shouldn't let such things give you a victim complex. Look how strong it is in you. Kessel wins two cups in conn smythe worthy post seasons, and people respect him more now because of "Leaf hate". It's completely obnoxious.

 

[IBeL34f]

Sure. It's not Kessel's fault that he wasn't in more playoff games. Regardless, the sample size was too small. He's not a playoff warrior until he proves it. Even if it's not his fault he wasn't given the opportunity.

The criticisms of Kessel when he was a leaf was that he was a one dimensional 70 point averaging winger who was mostly unproven in the playoffs. Of course that reputation will change after 2 conn smythe worthy cup wins. How could that possibly be confusing?

And sure, there were some fringe people that hated Kessel unreasonably. But Crosby has those. So does Ovechkin. Heck, some leaf fans had unreasonable hate for Sundin back in the day.

You shouldn't let such things give you a victim complex. Look how strong it is in you. Kessel wins two cups in conn smythe worthy post seasons, and people respect him more now because of "Leaf hate". It's completely obnoxious.

Serious question - Have you been reading my posts? Never once did I attribute anything to "Leaf hate" or being a victim of anything.

All I've said is that if peoples' perceptions changed as drastically as they apparently have, it's not because of watching him play, or because of his production. That's because an elite player going from a bad situation to an awesome situation and finding success shouldn't be cause for the Perception Switch to flip. People who are competent at assessing talent should recognize that an elite player was in a bad situation, not suddenly think that that player became way better than they ever were before. Beyond that, his production has remained exactly the same since he's been with Pittsburgh.

Whether these problems in perception stem from an anti-Leafs bias or not is beyond me. I would assume each person has their own biases that get in the way when they're judging a player, and so the reasons for the issues in perception are probably many. The point still remains that anyone who suddenly sees Kessel as some magically new, excellent player that he never was before is most likely not basing that opinion on having watched the player.

The only thing that's changed about the player is the external opportunity that they've received. Why that player should get so much more credit now, simply for being in a more favourable position to succeed, is pretty bizarre to me.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Serious question - Have you been reading my posts? Never once did I attribute anything to "Leaf hate" or being a victim of anything.

All I've said is that if peoples' perceptions changed as drastically as they apparently have, it's not because of watching him play, or because of his production. That's because an elite player going from a bad situation to an awesome situation and finding success shouldn't be cause for the Perception Switch to flip. People who are competent at assessing talent should recognize that an elite player was in a bad situation, not suddenly think that that player became way better than they ever were before. Beyond that, his production has remained exactly the same since he's been with Pittsburgh.

Whether these problems in perception stem from an anti-Leafs bias or not is beyond me. I would assume each person has their own biases that get in the way when they're judging a player, and so the reasons for the issues in perception are probably many. The point still remains that anyone who suddenly sees Kessel as some magically new, excellent player that he never was before is most likely not basing that opinion on having watched the player.

The only thing that's changed about the player is the external opportunity that they've received. Why that player should get so much more credit now, simply for being in a more favourable position to succeed, is pretty bizarre to me.

No. You, Kessel mega fans, and all other leaf fans did not know that Kessel was this player. You liked him, and hoped he was. And your wishes have come true (albeit with another team).

Nobody knew if Kessel would be the type of player that would run out of gas and disappear deep in the playoffs. We know now. He doesn't disappear. In fact, he gets better. But we only know that now. So now that he's proven that he's an absolute beast in the playoffs, all four rounds, conn smythe worthy numbers, 2 cup wins... yeah, people respect him more.

When he was just a one dimensional 70 point winger who was unproven in the playoffs? Less respect. In fact, Kessel was getting crapped on league wide during his first regular season with the Pens. Was that "anti leaf bias" as well? It's so silly.

 

[IBeL34f]

No. You, Kessel mega fans, and all other leaf fans did not know that Kessel was this player. You liked him, and hoped he was. And your wishes have come true (albeit with another team).

Nobody knew if Kessel would be the type of player that would run out of gas and disappear deep in the playoffs. We know now. He doesn't disappear. In fact, he gets better. But we only know that now. So now that he's proven that he's an absolute beast in the playoffs, all four rounds, conn smythe worthy numbers, 2 cup wins... yeah, people respect him more.

When he was just a one dimensional 70 point winger who was unproven in the playoffs? Less respect. In fact, Kessel was getting crapped on league wide during his first regular season with the Pens. Was that "anti leaf bias" as well? It's so silly.

I feel like if the change in perception were simply going from "He's an elite regular season player who simply needs the right opportunity to prove himself in the Playoffs in order to take that next step" to "He's finally gotten a chance to prove himself in the Playoffs, and he did - He's truly an elite player", then 1) you'd have an argument, and 2) we wouldn't be talking about this pages and pages later.

People who criticized Phil Kessel while he was with Toronto were not simply waiting to see how he'd perform over a larger sample size in the Playoffs.

 

[LeafFever]

I don't think most people ever hated Kessel. They just thought he was a one dimensional peripheral 70 point averaging winger. Which is what he was. When he became more than that, they thought more of him. How is that possibly confusing?

People HATED Kessel. you are wrong.
Do you really think on any other team he'd get that criticism? And why on the main boards do people deny criticizing him?

 

[LeafFever]

Regardless...

This thread seems to suggest that people respect Kessel more now due to "Leaf Hate" and not his two conn smythe deserving cup wins.

It's just such a silly argument to make.

You can't explain why they hated him to begin with. You keep mentioining the cup wins. it's a team game. And by no means was he deserving of a Conn Smythe last season. The guy was a running joke when he was on the Leafs. And really, I fail to see how his play has been better in Pitssburgh. The guy had 2 80 point seasons with Tyler Bozak as his centre.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I feel like if the change in perception were simply going from "He's an elite regular season player who simply needs the right opportunity to prove himself in the Playoffs in order to take that next step" to "He's finally gotten a chance to prove himself in the Playoffs, and he did - He's truly an elite player", then 1) you'd have an argument, and 2) we wouldn't be talking about this pages and pages later.

People who criticized Phil Kessel while he was with Toronto were not simply waiting to see how he'd perform over a larger sample size in the Playoffs.

People who criticized Kessel in Toronto criticized him for what he was. A one dimensional 70 point averaging winger unproven in the playoffs who would often disappear for long stretches in the season.

That perception didn't change until he won back to back cups with conn smythe worthy performances.

If it makes you feel better to present leaf fans as victims... then that's fine I suppose. It's just not based in logic.

Honestly, only leaf fans would do this.

League: "After back to back cup wins and conn smythe worthy performances, I have a new found respect for Kessel."

Leaf fans: "No.... IT'S BECAUSE OF LEAF HATE."

League: "Uh... no. It's the back to back cup wins with conn smythe worthy performances."

Leaf fans "LEAF HATE!!"

 

[Throw More Waffles]

People HATED Kessel. you are wrong.
Do you really think on any other team he'd get that criticism? And why on the main boards do people deny criticizing him?

Probably because the individuals that are denying criticizing him were individuals who never actually criticized him.

When you see individual fans as... you know... individual fans, and not as part of some vast conspiracy towards hating the maple leafs... your perspective changes.

 

[LeafFever]

People who criticized Kessel in Toronto criticized him for what he was. A one dimensional 70 point averaging winger unproven in the playoffs who would often disappear for long stretches in the season.

That perception didn't change until he won back to back cups with conn smythe worthy performances.

If it makes you feel better to present leaf fans as victims... then that's fine I suppose. It's just not based in logic.

Honestly, only leaf fans would do this.

League: "After back to back cup wins and conn smythe worthy performances, I have a new found respect for Kessel."

Leaf fans: "No.... IT'S BECAUSE OF LEAF HATE."

League: "Uh... no. It's the back to back cup wins with conn smythe worthy performances."

Leaf fans "LEAF HATE!!"

But why do other players like that not get criticized? I really think you are not aware of the hate this guy got. I need to start bumping up old threads. It's all Leaf fans defending him and non Leaf fans crapping on him for 5 years.
And BTW, that idea that Kessel was "Streaky" was a myth created by people who hated him. He never was streaky at all.

 

[LeafFever]

Probably because the individuals that are denying criticizing him were individuals who never actually criticized him.

When you see individual fans as... you know... individual fans, and not as part of some vast conspiracy towards hating the maple leafs... your perspective changes.

Obviously you have missed it, but posters who are still here have been nailed by fans who changed their opinion due to the jersey change.
Apparently according to those on the main board, NO non-Leaf fan ever criticized him. It was all Leaf fans. that is their story now. Yet dozens of old threads prove that wrong.
There has been a complete change of history on that main board.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

You can't explain why they hated him to begin with. You keep mentioining the cup wins. it's a team game. And by no means was he deserving of a Conn Smythe last season. The guy was a running joke when he was on the Leafs. And really, I fail to see how his play has been better in Pitssburgh. The guy had 2 80 point seasons with Tyler Bozak as his centre.

Because Kessel was a soft one dimensional 70 point averaging unproven playoff performer (2o games spanning 9 years).

He was judged appropriately.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Obviously you have missed it, but posters who are still here have been nailed by fans who changed their opinion due to the jersey change.
Apparently according to those on the main board, NO non-Leaf fan ever criticized him. It was all Leaf fans. that is their story now. Yet dozens of old threads prove that wrong.
There has been a complete change of history on that main board.

Kessel was mocked relentlessly his first regular season with the Pens. How does that fit into your vast "it's leaf fans versus the world" conspiracy?

 

[LeafFever]

Because Kessel was a soft one dimensional 70 point averaging unproven playoff performer (2o games spanning 9 years).

He was judged appropriately.

Yet no one else is judged like that. That's what you are not getting. Name another player like that you gets %5 of the criticism.
The Rick Nash thing I always found interesting: In Columbus, people loved him as this two-way beast. Yet the guy has been crap in the playoffs his entire career and he never, ever get any criticism for his team not doing well.

 

[MapleLeafs9]

Kessel as a playoff performer had nothing to do with numbers, in my opinion, so not sure sample size matters. He was deemed as such because you could actually see a very tangible difference in his game come playoff time. His work ethic increased by a lot, the shortcuts disappeared, and he applied himself in a way that he never did otherwise. A good example would be how he avoided Chara as the plague in every game against Boston over several year. He'd pull up short, keep to other parts of the ice, and give up on the puck if Chara engaged him. Suddenly it was playoffs, and Kessel looked like he was going to run through Chara if he placed himself in his way. Instead of avoiding him, he'd target him.

I can't think of any other player that changes as noticeably in playoffs as Phil does.

Daniel Briere, one of Matthews’ idols growing up. His game was on a whole other level in the playoffs. Shame he never got to win a cup.

 

[LeafFever]

Kessel was mocked relentlessly his first regular season with the Pens. How does that fit into your vast "it's leaf fans versus the world" conspiracy?

There is absolutely no truth to this whatsoever.
You joined after the Kessel trade. Are you sure you really know how much heat this guy got?
Again, people need to see the night Kessel was picked last at the all-star game. I have never seen anything like it. People were in their glory watching it and laughing.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

But why do other players like that not get criticized? I really think you are not aware of the hate this guy got. I need to start bumping up old threads. It's all Leaf fans defending him and non Leaf fans crapping on him for 5 years.
And BTW, that idea that Kessel was "Streaky" was a myth created by people who hated him. He never was streaky at all.

Kessel was streaky. It's a complete joke to suggest otherwise.

It's possible that there was more attention on Kessel than what was normal... largely due to the publicity around the trade, leafs dropping to 2nd last while Boston had our pick, then 7th last, etc. etc. etc.

But Kessel was just a streaky one dimensional 70 point averaging unproven playoff performer. That's what he was. He's not that any longer. So people respect him more now. Claiming it's because of "leaf hate" and not he conn smythe worthy performances is a complete joke.