Is Johansson our 4th long-term/core top-4 D (Mo, Ed, ASP.. AJo?)

[ElProfessor]

I don't want to get too into the weeds here re: pairings. But we entered this season thinking we had 3 of our top-4 in the system (Mo, Ed, ASP) and still needed to add an elite D.

Has that changed? Is AJo a legit top-4 D on a Stanley Cup contender for the next decade?

*****

Johansson --- Seider
Edvinsson --- ASP
Wallinder/Buium/Tuomisto/???

(PP1: ASP; PP2: Seider)(PK1: Edvinsson-Seider; PK2: ???)

*****

If you want to keep Ed-AJo together..

??? --- Seider
Edvinsson --- Johansson
Wallinder/Buium/??? --- ASP

(PP1: ASP; PP2: Seider)(PK1: Edvinsson-Seider; PK2: ???)

*****

Is that ^ a good enough D-core, over the next decade, to compete for Stanley Cups?

I mean, honestly.. even today.. in a Stanley Cup series.. I don't think Johansson--Seider would be significantly overmatched by any top line in the league. And how much better will Johansson get as he adds strength, confidence and maturity?

Do we really need to sign or trade for a 4th elite D? Or would that cap space/trade assets/draft capital be better spent on forwards?


...........
Excuse me if it's inappropriate to make this its own thread here (it seems like all of the player-specific threads here are still tied to their original draft posts...and like All Of the off-season topics are merged together into 1 or 2 mass threads)

But I felt this was a major/meta-enough of a topic to deserve it's own space

Click to read more...

 

[DTR]

Johansson is a nice story but he’s more likely our third pair LD long term than he is our first pair LD.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

I am not in a hurry to break AlJo and Ed to be honest. Keep the good thing going and find a replacement for Chia.

 

[dalem177]

I certainly haven't disliked anything I've seen from that pairing so far.

 

[ColdToiletSeats]

I can't wait to see ASP

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

Considering they haven't played together yet, I'm not so sure.

 

[ElProfessor]

I am not in a hurry to break AlJo and Ed to be honest. Keep the good thing going and find a replacement for Chia.

Sure... but do you want to play Seider and ASP together (one on their off-hand)... or to relegate ASP to the 3rd pair?

Talking big long-term picture here

Johansson is a nice story but he’s more likely our third pair LD long term than he is our first pair LD.

Let's unpack that...

Why?

Because he's not big and because he's not a major point producer?

Did you see him going against McDavid (the most talented player he will ever see on earth) as a rookie the other night? He was in his sweater dude, shut him down.

Maybe back in the day all elite defensemen were big and physical...but isn't it almost better, defensively, to have the skating to stick to a guy like McDavid like glue in today's game? How many defenseman in the league can even do that?

He's about the same size Kronwall was at the same age. He's going to get a lot bigger and stronger (and better in general). He's tough as nails. Major IQ. Not a big-time point producer...but already moves the puck well enough as a rookie where he should for sure be QB'ing our 2nd PP.

Seems like sort of out of date thinking that labels a rookie currently kicking serious ass on the 2nd pair in a playoff chase as being a "future 3rd pair D".

 

[SantosHalper]

It would be nice to have our own Forsling. I do see similarities.

 

[heyfolks]

IF he ends up a partner for Mo or Simon. it would be a huge boost to the rebuild. Seeing him against the Cans is making me a believer. McDavid is so good, just stealing the puck from him once made me think he has a shot.

Today, he is the 3rd best d'man, but that isn't a huge statement with the scrape heap below him. I am not as high on ASP as some others, but he isn't in the discussion for a few seasons. Mo was DY+2, Simon +3, Ajo +4. ASP is just 19 and has not played in NA. He will likely need a few years.

 

[jkutswings]

Johansson --- Seider
Edvinsson --- ASP

...PP1: ASP.....PP2: Seider
...PK1: Edvinsson-Seider.....PK2: ???

Is that ^ going to be a good enough top-4, over the next decade, to compete for Stanley Cups?

I mean, honestly.. even today.. in a Stanley Cup series.. I don't think Johansson--Seider would be significantly overmatched by any top line in the league. And how much better will Johansson get as he adds strength, confidence and maturity?

...And I don't need to rehash the valid debates about who the best defender will be / who will win the most Norris's of Seider, Edvinsson and ASP here.

Do we really need to sign a Chychrun/Pettersson/Provorov, or to trade major assets for a top pair LHD? Or do we already have a top-4 that's good enough?

If the answer is no, that's really good. We appear -- at the moment -- to look set in net with Cossa and Augustine. If we're set w our top-4 D as well..

Just need to focus on shoring up the 3rd pair (Wallinder, Buium, Tuomisto, outside?...easy) and finding elite scoring forwards via FA, the draft and possibly trades.

.....

Excuse me if it's inappropriate to make this its own thread here (it seems like all of the player-specific threads here are still tied to their original draft posts...and like All Of the off-season topics are merged together into 1 or 2 mass threads)

But I felt this was a major/meta-enough of a topic to deserve it's own space

Unless you think that Detroit will one day have arguably the best collection of 4 centers in the league, or the most firepower with Buchelnikov becoming at least another Raymond, I don't see why a defense "good enough" should be good enough.

Maybe I'm greedy, but if they're leaning into being hard to play against, then go all the way and create the best defense in the league. Make that (along with goaltending) your calling card... and be damn good at it.

 

[DTR]

Let's unpack that...

Why?

Because he's not big and because he's not a major point producer?

Did you see him going against McDavid (the most talented player he will ever see on earth) as a rookie the other night? He was in his sweater dude, shut him down.

Maybe back in the day all elite defensemen were big and physical...but isn't it almost better, defensively, to have the skating to stick to a guy like McDavid like glue in today's game? How many defenseman in the league can even do that?

He's about the same size Kronwall was at the same age. He's going to get a lot bigger and stronger (and better in general). He's tough as nails. Major IQ. Not a big-time point producer...but already moves the puck well enough as a rookie where he should for sure be QB'ing our 2nd PP.

Seems like sort of out of date thinking that labels a rookie currently kicking serious ass on the 2nd pair in a playoff chase as being a "future 3rd pair D".

Because Johansson is 24 years old with 30 career games under his belt. The idea that we can start penciling him as a future #1 is ridiculous.

 

[ElProfessor]

Unless you think that Detroit will one day have arguably the best collection of 4 centers in the league, or the most firepower with Buchelnikov becoming at least another Raymond, I don't see why a defense "good enough" should be good enough.

Maybe I'm greedy, but if they're leaning into being hard to play against, then go all the way and create the best defense in the league. Make that (along with goaltending) your calling card... and be damn good at it.

Welllll.

There's only so much cap space, draft capital and trade resources.

Everything that doesn't go towards a big #1 LHD can go towards offense.

...

Do you think Johansson-Seider & Edvinsson-ASP could match up favorably against the top two lines of NHL Stanley Cup contenders over the next decade, roughly speaking?

I kind of do...

Because Johansson is 24 years old with 30 career games under his belt. The idea that we can start penciling him as a future #1 is ridiculous.

And penciling in ASP as our future PP QB and #2 D is.... what exactly?

 

[KJoe88]

We don’t even know how ASP can handle the NHL yet.

He may end up a poor man’s Makar or Brendan Smith…

 

[ElProfessor]

IF he ends up a partner for Mo or Simon. it would be a huge boost to the rebuild. Seeing him against the Cans is making me a believer. McDavid is so good, just stealing the puck from him once made me think he has a shot.

Today, he is the 3rd best d'man, but that isn't a huge statement with the scrape heap below him. I am not as high on ASP as some others, but he isn't in the discussion for a few seasons. Mo was DY+2, Simon +3, Ajo +4. ASP is just 19 and has not played in NA. He will likely need a few years.

He already Is a great partner for Ed.. in the middle of a heated playoff chase.. as a rookie.

I don't think it's really even debatable that he couldn't *eventually* be a great partner for Mo on the 1st pair. Hell, he could probably be Mo's partner tomorrow (on his natural side, with a better partner) and be even better than he is w Ed.

...

As far as ASP goes, I think he'll be our #2 out of camp next yr. He may even get some games in Detroit this yr once his season's over.

We don’t even know how ASP can handle the NHL yet.

He may end up a poor man’s Makar or Brendan Smith…

He's more hyped than any defensive prospect we've had in the last 30yrs besides Seider. More hyped than Edvinsson even.

Don't make people read that name. Or Kindl. Or Cholowski.

Nothing's guaranteed...but come on...leave that at home.

 

[Winger98]

Sure... but do you want to play Seider and ASP together (one on their off-hand)... or to relegate ASP to the 3rd pair?

Talking big long-term picture here

ASP locking down the third pair isn't the worst thing. We saw Tampa run Hedman, McDonagh, and Sergaechev out on different pairs and it worked pretty well. If we do end up moving Albert to the left side, we could also run:

Ed-Mo
Albert-ASP

for a top4. With how the Wings are set up, we have time to give Albert a longer look before really committing to anything. Chiarot is around for another, and Gus has been fine on the third pair.

Unless you think that Detroit will one day have arguably the best collection of 4 centers in the league, or the most firepower with Buchelnikov becoming at least another Raymond, I don't see why a defense "good enough" should be good enough.

Maybe I'm greedy, but if they're leaning into being hard to play against, then go all the way and create the best defense in the league. Make that (along with goaltending) your calling card... and be damn good at it.

With how Albert has been playing, upgrading on him will be easier said than done. At some point, what you will have to spend in assets and cap to upgrade on some of these guys ends up with diminishing returns.

 

[lilidk]

I hope we trade for Josi or similar to play with Seider.
Seider has not reached his potential yet and there is something he could learn from Josi.
AJo is good with Edvinsson , let's just keep that way

 

[ElProfessor]

ASP locking down the third pair isn't the worst thing. We saw Tampa run Hedman, McDonagh, and Sergaechev out on different pairs and it worked pretty well. If we do end up moving Albert to the left side, we could also run:

Ed-Mo
Albert-ASP

for a top4. With how the Wings are set up, we have time to give Albert a longer look before really committing to anything. Chiarot is around for another, and Gus has been fine on the third pair.



With how Albert has been playing, upgrading on him will be easier said than done. At some point, what you will have to spend in assets and cap to upgrade on some of these guys ends up with diminishing returns.

I think...

A) You don't want the two little guys together (Johansson and ASP)

and B) ASP is going to be too good to stick on the 3rd pair.

I hope we trade for Josi or similar to play with Seider.
Seider has not reached his potential yet and there is something he could learn from Josi.
AJo is good with Edvinsson , let's just keep that way

Sure. But this doesn't occur in a vacuum.

Trading for Josi or someone similar will cost assets and cap space.

And those will be assets and cap space that can't go towards adding scoring forwards.

So the question is...

Johansson--Seider
Edvinsaon--ASP

Is that good enough to matchup against the top-two lines of Stanley Cup contenders over the next decade?

I think so.

Is our current group of forwards talented enough to win a Stanley Cup?

Definitely not.

So where do we focus our available assets and cap space?

 

[jkutswings]

With how Albert has been playing, upgrading on him will be easier said than done. At some point, what you will have to spend in assets and cap to upgrade on some of these guys ends up with diminishing returns.

To clarify, I'm not explicitly requiring an upgrade on Johansson. Getting two more guys of his caliber to play the third pairing might also do the trick, as opposed to the typical tier of third pairing defenseman.

I guess after getting screwed by the lottery repeatedly, and so many rounds of listening to how awful it is that the Wings don't have an Art Ross center, I'd rather do everything possible to maximize the next logical facet of the roster. Load up where you can based on what you're already hoping to be good at and really lean into your strength.

 

[lilidk]

I think...

A) You don't want the two little guys together (Johansson and ASP)

and B) ASP is going to be too good to stick on the 3rd pair.


Sure. But this doesn't occur in a vacuum.

Trading for Josi or someone similar will cost assets and cap space.

And those will be assets and cap space that can't go towards adding scoring forwards.

So the question is...

Johansson--Seider
Edvinsaon--ASP

Is that good enough to matchup against the top-two lines of Stanley Cup contenders over the next decade?

I think so.

Is our current group of forwards talented enough to win a Stanley Cup?

Definitely not.

So where do we focus our available assets and cap space?

It should be blend experience and youth. Unfortunately our veterans on defense has no hockey IQ to play on top pairs. In 2-4 years, sure put AJo with Seider and ASP with Edvinsson , but for now I hope we have guy like Josi to improve our young defensive core.
So yes, I like your pairing, but not for next season

 

[KJoe88]

He's more hyped than any defensive prospect we've had in the last 30yrs besides Seider. More hyped than Edvinsson even.

Don't make people read that name. Or Kindl. Or Cholowski.

Nothing's guaranteed...but come on...leave that at home.

It’s called realism.

We literally have no idea.

 

[FMichael]

I am not in a hurry to break AlJo and Ed to be honest. Keep the good thing going and find a replacement for Chia.

This…Not sure why anyone would want to mess with this particular pairing when considering how well they’re playing together (even with taking into consideration that AlJo is a lefty playing on the right side).

 

[Henkka]

Johansson --- Seider
Edvinsson --- ASP

That's kind of it. The big plan. I definitely see it.

Axel as the 1st PP QB. He could overlap Seider because he is just better. My god that's a nice luxury to have.

Ed and Seider doing the biggest defensive things. Johansson maybe being the supportive guy.

 

[lilidk]

AlJo Seider
Edvinsson ASP
AnJo Buium

 

[Winger98]

To clarify, I'm not explicitly requiring an upgrade on Johansson. Getting two more guys of his caliber to play the third pairing might also do the trick, as opposed to the typical tier of third pairing defenseman.

I guess after getting screwed by the lottery repeatedly, and so many rounds of listening to how awful it is that the Wings don't have an Art Ross center, I'd rather do everything possible to maximize the next logical facet of the roster. Load up where you can based on what you're already hoping to be good at and really lean into your strength.

Yeah, it sucked that we picked later than we should have in every single draft, but when they start doing re-drafts of those years how high do you think Seider is going to go? Raymond? Ed? I've said it before, but I wouldn't be surprised if we look back and find out we ended up with a top3 guy from several of these drafts. Even Kasper is looking really good lately.

I'm not against making moves, not at all, but we also have a lot of kids trending in the right direction, and a bunch playing in Detroit right now that are looking really good. It's a good problem to have.

I think...

A) You don't want the two little guys together (Johansson and ASP)

and B) ASP is going to be too good to stick on the 3rd pair.

So was Sergaechev in Tampa, but being able to have him there ends up being an advantage just like have a great 3C behind your top2. ASP could still get his minutes. Late in games we could condense pairings as we see fit. It offers a lot of flexibility, especially if Albert is just flat better on the right side and he pairs so well with Ed.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

I can't wait to see ASP

Uh, well you could use Google images.