Is Jamie Benn's Art Ross win the worst of all time?

[wetcoast]

This is an objective trophy. The idea they are wrong winners is ridiculous.

Came here to say this, he won the Art Ross by scoring the most points.

Was he the most valuable player in the league that year is another question and Hart voters thought not.

Part of the problem is that some simple minded people focus on the winner of something and pretend that their performance is so much better than some of the non winners in that year which is just garbage.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I'm not sure if it is the worst without going back to look more closely, but it is definitely near the top on the list.

 

[blundluntman]

Came here to say this, he won the Art Ross by scoring the most points.

Was he the most valuable player in the league that year is another question and Hart voters thought not.

Part of the problem is that some simple minded people focus on the winner of something and pretend that their performance is so much better than some of the non winners in that year which is just garbage.

so you don't think some art ross performances are more impressive than others?

 

[wetcoast]

so you don't think some art ross performances are more impressive than others?

Sure but the elite ones is what everyone focuses on the "worst" ones are often a gut reaction of who and not understanding or looking at the entire picture and context.

The biggest one is he has the lowest points (counting stats) and not recognizing that league scoring was down that year.

It might very well be the "worst" but most people will have a gut reaction reach that conclusion then justifying it with limited scope.

 

[Atoyot]

I'm a Stars fan, so I'm sure there is some bias, but I don't remember a race coming down to the wire like that before.

He started out 1 point behind Tavares and Crosby on the final day of the season and they all played that night. Crosby was held off the scoresheet (which surprised me because I thought he was gonna take it that night no problem), but I remember watching at home as the Stars broadcast showed every time Tavares added a point to his totals (I think he had 2 that night IIRC), so when there were only a few minute left and Benn was still sitting at 2 points for the night, I thought it was lost. Then he comes back and gets 2 more in those last couple of minutes to slide in and take the lead and the win in like the last minute or something.

Call it weak if you want, but that shit was an exciting way to end the season.

That must have been really fun to experience as a fan.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

This is an objective trophy. The idea they are wrong winners is ridiculous.

I mean, come on. If a teacher is grading on a curve, can their top student not be a strong or weak top student? No one said he was the wrong winner…. just that his win was the worst. If you think it’s a stupid topic, so be it. To pretend like it is a baseless point of discussion is taking things seriously to a point of ridiculousness that plain ridiculousness could never match.

 

[Voight]

There's a difference between a wrong winner and an unimpressive winner. The poll infers the latter

Even then. Benn managed to score more than a prime Ovy/Crosby/Tavares. Not exactly an easy task.

 

[Voight]

What lmao. Stop trying to revise history- clearly you didn't follow the NHL during Benn's peak.

Players that scored more points than Jamie Benn from 2013-14 to 2016-17 (5 season period):

• Sidney Crosby
• Patrick Kane

At his peak, Benn was easily a top 10 player in the NHL and so was Tyler Seguin. They were an unstoppable force (offensively).

Seguins prime is often underrated. Six straight seasons of 70+ points, IMO he doesn't get a lot of hype because scoring was fairly low during his best years and as a result he doesn't have the gaudy point totals we saw before & after.

Example - his 84 points in 2014 were good enough to place 4th in scoring, this past season that wouldn't of made the top 20.

 

[blundluntman]

Even then. Benn managed to score more than a prime Ovy/Crosby/Tavares. Not exactly an easy task.

I wouldn't say he was competing against prime ovi at all. Crosby had a very down year by his standards as well (he'd just put up almost 20 more points the prior season). Sure he outscored Tavares but it's not like he was a top 5 player in the league at the time. The quality of competition that year was not very high.

 

[blundluntman]

Sure but the elite ones is what everyone focuses on the "worst" ones are often a gut reaction of who and not understanding or looking at the entire picture and context.

The biggest one is he has the lowest points (counting stats) and not recognizing that league scoring was down that year.

It might very well be the "worst" but most people will have a gut reaction reach that conclusion then justifying it with limited scope.

I don't think that's entirely true. Jamie Benn had the smallest margin of separation from his competition and a lower level of competition altogether. Sure it's one of the lower scoring art rosses and maybe that's because of scoring being low, but it's also sandwiched between two 100 point seasons from superstar players. I think most people are aware of this.

Perhaps there are some that react without facts but there are plenty of comments in this thread that bring up those anecdotal facts.

 

[Voight]

I wouldn't say he was competing against prime ovi at all. Crosby had a very down year by his standards as well (he'd just put up almost 20 more points the prior season). Sure he outscored Tavares but it's not like he was a top 5 player in the league at the time. The quality of competition that year was not very high.

Thats irrelevant. He was still in his prime & Jamie Benn outscored him.

& one could argue Tavares was a top 5 player that season.

I don't understand the logic behind saying the quality of competition wasn't very high. 2015 may have been a low scoring year but all the usual suspects were healthy and in the running. Literally the same guys who finished top 10 in points the year before were healthy.

 

[blundluntman]

Thats irrelevant. He was still in his prime & Jamie Benn outscored him.

& one could argue Tavares was a top 5 player that season.

I don't understand the logic behind saying the quality of competition wasn't very high. 2015 may have been a low scoring year but all the usual suspects were healthy and in the running. Literally the same guys who finished top 10 in points the year before were healthy.

It's not irrelevant at all. If he had outperformed a season that Crosby had the last 2 years before then you could argue he beat Crosby at his best (who still had a better ppg btw). By Crosby's standard, he absolutely underperformed, anybody will tell you that. Even if you argue the quality of competition wasn't high (which I still believe to be true), his separation from the rest of the pack was in the top 3 lowest spanning back to 1967 iirc. Ovi was not the same Ovi from the late 2000s, most of the star players in the league were not in the prime of their career compared to their peaks. Even his own linemate was scoring at a higher level than him and would've likely won the scoring race if he didn't miss 11 games that year.

 

[Regal]

Thats irrelevant. He was still in his prime & Jamie Benn outscored him.

& one could argue Tavares was a top 5 player that season.

I don't understand the logic behind saying the quality of competition wasn't very high. 2015 may have been a low scoring year but all the usual suspects were healthy and in the running. Literally the same guys who finished top 10 in points the year before were healthy.

Players don’t play or produce at the same level year to year. We can use surrounding seasons, league average scoring and vsx numbers to give a sense of how players are performing year to year regardless of the scoring environment. It’s clear Crosby wasn’t performing at the level of his reputation that year, and that while Tavares might have been a top player for a couple seasons, his year doesn’t compare to many other players who came close to the Art Ross in other seasons. Yea there was a lot of guys healthy, but the Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos group wasn’t the same as they were in their early 20s, Kane was hurt, and there wasn’t a crop of high end players replacing them at the time. It was a lull in high end talent until McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, Matthews, MacKinnon, etc came into the league/improved.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The other important thing here is that Benn really came out of nowhere to win the Art Ross, scoring 15 points in his last 6 games to win it by the smallest margin, all while his team was effectively eliminated from the playoffs. The other players competing for it all had something to play for other than personal stats

 

[North Cole]

If you're a Crosby fan sure, will never not be funny he lost an art Ross to Benn. Given its just a point scoring trophy, I don't see how there is good or bad wins. You can say a race was good or bad, but the win is objectively a win.

 

[Regal]

If you're a Crosby fan sure, will never not be funny he lost an art Ross to Benn. Given its just a point scoring trophy, I don't see how there is good or bad wins. You can say a race was good or bad, but the win is objectively a win.

I mean if there’s a 100m race and someone wins with a 9.95, and then in another race, the winner has a 9.89, they both objectively won the race, but one with the faster time was still the better winner

 

[North Cole]

I mean if there’s a 100m race and someone wins with a 9.95, and then in another race, the winner has a 9.89, they both objectively won the race, but one with the faster time was still the better winner

Sure but what's our context in this case? Op doesn't give us anything to go off of, just that they think it sucks. Did the guy winning with a 9.89 have a better tailwind? Scoring sucked in mid 10's...

 

[blundluntman]

Sure but what's our context in this case? Op doesn't give us anything to go off of, just that they think it sucks. Did the guy winning with a 9.89 have a better tailwind? Scoring sucked in mid 10's...

When I said worst, I basically meant least impressive. This can be measured by the separation from your peers as far as the margin between the next closest placement is, it can be based on the level of scoring relative to the goals per game the league had, and of course, you can compare the performance to other scoring wins. For example: Jagr's art ross in 1999 where he outscored the next closest player by 20 points is likely more impressive than Benn outscoring the next closest player by 1 point. Quality of competition is also a factor when you consider Jagr competed against Teemu Selanne and Paul Kariya whereas Benn competed against Tavares and an underperforming Crosby. My op was an opinion but the context of your answer is up open to your interpretation/standards.

 

[sr edler]

On his last point, a secondary assist with less than 10 seconds left on the season, I don't think he even touched the puck with his stick? Didn't it just bounce off of his pants or something?

 

[KevinRedkey]

I'm a Stars fan, so I'm sure there is some bias, but I don't remember a race coming down to the wire like that before.

He started out 1 point behind Tavares and Crosby on the final day of the season and they all played that night. Crosby was held off the scoresheet (which surprised me because I thought he was gonna take it that night no problem), but I remember watching at home as the Stars broadcast showed every time Tavares added a point to his totals (I think he had 2 that night IIRC), so when there were only a few minute left and Benn was still sitting at 2 points for the night, I thought it was lost. Then he comes back and gets 2 more in those last couple of minutes to slide in and take the lead and the win in like the last minute or something.

Call it weak if you want, but that shit was an exciting way to end the season.

The one hat comes to mind for me is Forsberg vs Naslund vs Thornton in 2002-2003.

Morning of May 22nd, 2003:
Naslund sits at 94 points with 7 games left
Thornston sits at 91 points with 8 games left.
Forsberg sits at 88 points with 9 games left

Morning of May 30th, 2003:
Naslund sits at 102pts with 3 games left.
Thornton sits at 96 points with 4 games left.
Forsberg sits at 99 points with 4 games left.

Morning of April 5th 2003:
Naslund sits at 104pts with 1 game left.
Thornton sits at 99 points with 1 game left.
Forsberg sits at 103 points with 1 game left.

April 5th, 2003:
Thornton gets 2 points to end the season with 101pts
It's between Forsberg and Naslund at this point.

April 6th, 2003 - the final game of the season.
Naslund plays over 23mins and almost 8 full minutes on the PP but VAN can't get anything past Jamie Storr, and they lose 2-0.
Colorado beats St.Louis 5-2 and Forsberg gets 3 points to leapfrog Naslund and win the Art Ross.

Despite being ahead 3-1, both teams (COL & VAN) ended up losing to the Minnesota Wild in 7 that year. Forsberg won the Hart over Nalsund as well. A big reason why is he finished the season with 18 points in his final 9 games, and centered Hejduk to 50 goals.

 

[wetcoast]

Players don’t play or produce at the same level year to year. We can use surrounding seasons, league average scoring and vsx numbers to give a sense of how players are performing year to year regardless of the scoring environment. It’s clear Crosby wasn’t performing at the level of his reputation that year, and that while Tavares might have been a top player for a couple seasons, his year doesn’t compare to many other players who came close to the Art Ross in other seasons. Yea there was a lot of guys healthy, but the Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos group wasn’t the same as they were in their early 20s, Kane was hurt, and there wasn’t a crop of high end players replacing them at the time. It was a lull in high end talent until McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, Matthews, MacKinnon, etc came into the league/improved.

Agree with this as weird things happen for these reasons sometimes..

Crosby also played through recovering from the mumps in December and his numbers were drastically down that month with a 11-2-3-5 line.

 

[ricky0034]

He tied it with an empty net goal and won it with an empty net assist.

and still finished the season with two less empty net points than Crosby

 

[mahomes95]

The NBA and NFL are never going to have someone of Jamie Benn caliber win thier major trophies. Most hockey players are plumbers.

 

[tarheelhockey]

FWIW, the other major contender in this category would be the second that the Ross was awarded: Roy Conacher’s win in 1949.

The late 40s NHL was just a low-voltage league that was still recovering from being decimated by WWII disruptions. A young Gordie Howe was breaking into stardom, but missed 6 weeks with knee surgery. Maurice Richard was the other big star, but had arguably the worst season of his career while dealing with hip injuries. The reigning scoring champ, Lach, faced a series of injuries and actually retired briefly after the season.

Meanwhile, the ‘49 Black Hawks were a terrible team that scored a lot while playing zero defense. Their star was an aging Doug Bentley, playing in his last great season before decline. Bentley would have won the Ross, having the slightly higher PPG and leading the league in assists, but missed two games whereas his winger Conacher played the full schedule. This eventually punched Conacher’s ticket for the HHOF (48 years after his retirement!) an honor that wouldn’t have been seriously considered without that Ross win.

Incidentally, the overall scoring rate in 1949 was almost identical to 2015, only 0.01 gpg different.

That’s the only other case with all the ingredients:
- League at low tide in terms of star power and scoring
- The top stars of the era had poor seasons
- Winner was a third-rate star known chiefly for winning the Ross this one time
- Winner played for a really bad team which did little else but allow their top line to rack up numbers
- Player was largely carried by a legit star linemate, who lost the scoring race by missing a couple of games

 

[glovesave_35]

Find me a worse one in terms of both quality of player & actual production.

Hah, quality of player. For a five year stretch during Benn's prime he was 3rd in scoring.

From 2013-14 - 2017-18 Benn was only behind Crosby and Kane, and in front of Ovechkin. And one of those seasons he won the scoring race. This isn't like Reilly Smith winning.

If someone wants to disparage the winner of that year because it was such a low point total, I get it. But the player in question also has a 1st Team All Star selection on his resume and finished 2nd in scoring the year after winning the Art Ross.

The low point total is more of a statement about where the league was scoring-wise, though. It was completely different than now. Prime Benn would be one of the 100 point scorers in the game these days without question.