Is Jagr the greatest European player of all time?

[CostaRica]

Russia ceased to be part of Europe in 2022. According to some, already in 2014. Players from there are not under consideration. I hope that helped some confused individuals.

Which geographic site did you gather this fictitious information from

 

[cupface52]

Slava Fetisov is the greatest IMHO - most impactful/most winning player (skater) to come out of Europe.

Jagr is the best Euro forward until the day Ovechkin breaks the record. Then we can start debating Jagr vs Ovechkin.

Larionov is arguably the most intellectual of all Europeans.

Tretiak is the best European goalie ever.

Hasek is the best European goalie to say in the NHL.

Bure is the most excuses - electrifying player from Europe.

Sundin is the lost underrated European NHLer.

Seeing as Hasek is the best goalie to ever play in the NHL, wouldn't that make Tretiak the GOAT goalie? Not that I agree Tretiak>Hasek at all.

 

[wetcoast]

Seeing as Hasek is the best goalie to ever play in the NHL, wouldn't that make Tretiak the GOAT goalie? Not that I agree Tretiak>Hasek at all.

Not to mention Fetisov in the NHL resume is just beyond weak and the fact that Dmen generally age better than forwards really hurts his case.

 

[10Ducky10]

Stan Makita

 

[ozzie]

I'm torn between Hasek, Jagr and Lidstrom if we keep it to NHL performance. You can't ignore Makarov or some of those famous soviets either.

Homer pick is Lidstrom, brain says Hasek with the 1998 gold medal, 2 harts.

 

[Gerulaitis]

Not to mention Fetisov in the NHL resume is just beyond weak and the fact that Dmen generally age better than forwards really hurts his case.

Beyond weak? How many Stanley Cups he has? Your attempt to troll is weak.

 

[Gerulaitis]

Seeing as Hasek is the best goalie to ever play in the NHL, wouldn't that make Tretiak the GOAT goalie? Not that I agree Tretiak>Hasek at all.

Hasek is the best European goaltender in the NHL history.

 

[wetcoast]

Beyond weak? How many Stanley Cups he has? Your attempt to troll is weak.

The fact of the matter is that his resume in the NHL is really weak.

But if you really think he is Best all time at anything, that's on you and not really backed up by enough facts here.

I grew up loving the Russian style of play, total hockey 5 man units but the fact of the matter is that the sum was greater than the parts for the Green unit in many ways.

Fetisov played on 2 SC teams late in his career at age 38 and 39 as a depth player.

 

[Gerulaitis]

The fact of the matter is that his resume in the NHL is really weak.

But if you really think he is Best all time at anything, that's on you and not really backed up by enough facts here.

I grew up loving the Russian style of play, total hockey 5 man units but the fact of the matter is that the sum was greater than the parts for the Green unit in many ways.

Fetisov played on 2 SC teams late in his career at age 38 and 39 as a depth player.

Fetisov's resume is far from week.

You're ignoring the obvious facts here.
But if this makes you feel better, than what can we do?...

 

[bert]

Pretty easily at this point.

 

[wetcoast]

Fetisov's resume is far from week.

You're ignoring the obvious facts here.
But if this makes you feel better, than what can we do?...

What exactly are the strong points of his NHL resume?

Like does he have any top 100 dman seasons post age 30 in the NHL?

I'd argue a big no there.

He had a 20th placing for post season all star dman in his rookie season, that's the highlight.

 

[Gerulaitis]

What exactly are the strong points of his NHL resume?

Like does he have any top 100 dman seasons post age 30 in the NHL?

I'd argue a big no there.

He had a 20th placing for post season all star dman in his rookie season, that's the highlight.

And despite being over the hill, he went on to be an important part of the Detroit Red Wings that reached 3 Cup finals and won 2 of them.

Obviously, you don't know that he was a super experienced veteran who influenced younger players in Detroit, including mentoring young Nik Lidström.

And I guess you've never heard of Fetisov before he came to the NHL and who he was in his prime in the 80s.

 

[jalapenoWithAnH]

If you consider accomplishments, skill and value to the team then I'd say the list in order is:

Hasek, Lidstrom, Jagr and Fedorov.

But if you only consider pure skill Id put Hasek first and Fedorov second.

I think if Fedorov had stayed a bit more consistent he would've passed Jagr on the first list. At the time Jagr was playing Gretzky and Yzerman said Fedorov was the best player in the league. He went on to win Hart and Selke in the same year, a feat that has not been achieved before or after that by anyone else.

Scott Bowman also said Fedorov could've been an all star defenseman.

Jagr and Lidstrom were obviously great and achieved great things but they weren't as complete players as Fedorov. Fedorov was elite in many things: skating, speed, shooting, puck possession and defending. Where as Jagr and Lidstrom had a more limited skillset.

 

[wetcoast]

And despite being over the hill, he went on to be an important part of the Detroit Red Wings that reached 3 Cup finals and won 2 of them.

If by important you mean like the #4 Damn or 10th guy in terms of importance sure.

Obviously, you don't know that he was a super experienced veteran who influenced younger players in Detroit, including mentoring young Nik Lidström.

Your timeline is off, Lidstrom had already played 3 full seasons before Fetisov arrived and Fetisov often played with the other Russian players in detroit.

And I guess you've never heard of Fetisov before he came to the NHL and who he was in his prime in the 80s.

I related that I did in a previous post, I'm in my mid 50s and like I said loved the russians style of play and sue of 5 man units and total hockey.

 

[bleedgreen]

Second leading scorer in the history of the NHL.

It’s fair to give him the nod. A lot of people just never liked the guy so there’s always going to be an argument. When they’re all in their primes Jagr was hands down the best other than possibly Hasek. I don’t think a single coach who was trying to win one game would choose prime Lidstrom over prime Jagr. Fedorov had the ability to do whatever he wanted but he really picked his times to do it, he was not nearly as dominant individually as Jagr was - even if he appeared to have the skill to do so. Hasek to me is the only true competitor and obviously it’s difficult to compare a goalie to a forward.

It’s Jagr or Hasek, you can make an argument for either but I’m going with again - the second leading scorer in the history of the game.

 

[Gerulaitis]

If by important you mean like the #4 Damn or 10th guy in terms of importance sure.



Your timeline is off, Lidstrom had already played 3 full seasons before Fetisov arrived and Fetisov often played with the other Russian players in detroit.


I related that I did in a previous post, I'm in my mid 50s and like I said loved the russians style of play and sue of 5 man units and total hockey.

Lidström himself said that Slava mentored him. Probably he wasn't aware about the "timeline" ...

Loving the Russian style of hockey has nothing to do with it (I'm not sure what the Russian style is now - but the Tikhonov's Soviet system was a masterpiece).

Fetisov is the best skater that Russia ever produced.
Hockey is a team sport. Fetisov elevated the Soviet players that played with him; he was a key element to their chemistry.

 

[rea]

Completely off topic, but who else feels the Pearson/Lindsay should be viewed more prestigiously than the Hart, as it's voted by their peers vs the Hart voted by the media?

On topic, I think Jagr is the greatest euro, followed by Hasek. Just his longevity and ability to stay competitive at the highest levels should give him the extra leg up. This doesn't discount Hasek, as I believe he was the best goalie of this era, but again, for me, the tiebreaker would be the longevity and being able to/having the passion to still contribute in the top leagues. Gotta go w Jagr

Also, I'd like to add, that he was throwing up his best numbers during the dead puck era, where he won all his art ross trophies, when the rules allowed teams to clutch grab , commit murder on the ice, and play the trap d style.

 

[Boxscore]

Lost in all of this talk is Alex Ovechkin, who will soon be the greatest goal scorer in NHL history, surpassing Gretzky -- a feat that was once considered impossible by many. In addition to scoring more goals than any player in hockey history, Ovie checks every box...

Elite offensive production, check.

Stanley Cup, check.

Conn Smythe, check.

Art Ross. check.

Harts, 3x.

Rocket Richards, 9x.

Ted Lindsays, 3x.

Calder, check.

1 of 2 Euros to score 1,600+ points (Jagr being the other in 250+ more GP).

All-star, 13x (Compared to Jagr's 9x and equal to Lidstrom's 13x).

World Junior Gold, check.

World Gold, check.

Durability and longevity, check.

The fact is, this guy's trophy chest is jam-packed. He's a champion, icon, and is the single greatest goal scorer in the history of a sport that is 107 years old. So, why aren't we considering Ovie for the greatest European player ever??

 

[authentic]

Really? I don't even think Larionov was the best player on his line. Arguably the 4th best from the Green Unit.

The Euro GOAT comes down to:

Ovechkin
Jagr
Lidstrom
Hasek
Fetisov
Makarov
Tretiak

... for me. I don't think anyone else can be in the discussion. And I love Forsberg, Sundin, Kucherov, Kharlamov, etc.

Really? I don't even think Larionov was the best player on his line. Arguably the 4th best from the Green Unit.

The Euro GOAT comes down to:

Ovechkin
Jagr
Lidstrom
Hasek
Fetisov
Makarov
Tretiak

... for me. I don't think anyone else can be in the discussion. And I love Forsberg, Sundin, Kucherov, Kharlamov, etc.

For greatest I would agree but when it comes to best Lidstrom wasn’t even the best Swedish player, that was Forsberg fairly easily.

 

[wetcoast]

Lidström himself said that Slava mentored him. Probably he wasn't aware about the "timeline" ...

Yet the facts remain that he played 3 full seasons and was laready an excellent dman for his age.

Hockey people say things all the time, Bowman called Lidstrom perfect, did he ever say this about Fetisov?

see how much a quote without context means?

Loving the Russian style of hockey has nothing to do with it (I'm not sure what the Russian style is now - but the Tikhonov's Soviet system was a masterpiece).

You question if I ever saw him play, I clarified it and also expressed my non bias on the matter.

Fetisov is the best skater that Russia ever produced.

That's your opinion and his NHL resume suggests otherwise.

Hockey is a team sport. Fetisov elevated the Soviet players that played with him; he was a key element to their chemistry.

Or maybe the sum of the Green Unit was greater than it's parts?

Krutov is the obvious example here.

 

[Gerulaitis]

Yet the facts remain that he played 3 full seasons and was laready an excellent dman for his age.

Hockey people say things all the time, Bowman called Lidstrom perfect, did he ever say this about Fetisov?

see how much a quote without context means?




You question if I ever saw him play, I clarified it and also expressed my non bias on the matter.

That's your opinion and his NHL resume suggests otherwise.


Or maybe the sum of the Green Unit was greater than it's parts?

Krutov is the obvious example here.

An NHL resume of a player who came to the league past his prime means almost nothing. The prime Fetisov was the most outstanding defence man of the 80s and his resume playing against NHL teams is superb.

Lidström knows who was his mentor.

Krutov was the top 4 winger of the 80s. I'd put only Makarov and Bossy ahead of him. Maybe someone else but I can't think of any.

 

[Gerulaitis]

Lost in all of this talk is Alex Ovechkin, who will soon be the greatest goal scorer in NHL history, surpassing Gretzky -- a feat that was once considered impossible by many. In addition to scoring more goals than any player in hockey history, Ovie checks every box...

Elite offensive production, check.

Stanley Cup, check.

Conn Smythe, check.

Art Ross. check.

Harts, 3x.

Rocket Richards, 9x.

Ted Lindsays, 3x.

Calder, check.

1 of 2 Euros to score 1,600+ points (Jagr being the other in 250+ more GP).

All-star, 13x (Compared to Jagr's 9x and equal to Lidstrom's 13x).

World Junior Gold, check.

World Gold, check.

Durability and longevity, check.

The fact is, this guy's trophy chest is jam-packed. He's a champion, icon, and is the single greatest goal scorer in the history of a sport that is 107 years old. So, why aren't we considering Ovie for the greatest European player ever??

Based on the facts you've presented, Ovechkin must be the best hockey player of all time in both Europe, America and everywhere else

 

[FlyguyOX]

Opened this up expecting there to be some debate about whether a Russian would be considered european.

Was not disappointed.