Is Jagr the greatest European player of all time?

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Uhh... He joined the NHL in his 30's.

But more importantly you have to watch a documentary called "the Red Army" to understand his contribution to hockey, and why Russia was so dominant in International competition.



They never played "lines" or matchups.

The Soviets played in 5-man units. They didn't play designated positions like Winger, or defense. They just switched it back forth up down, etc.

These Soviets woke up in a barracks at 6am and trained all-day-night all-year together as a 5-man unit as a part of the Soviet Army team. They basically learned to play with each other by developing a 6th sense of where each other were on the ice.

The older soviets that defected early didn't easily adapt to play a singular position or a rigid system that required them to be in 1-zone or "neutral zone trap". It wasn't until Scotty Bowman reunited a Russian Unit that we saw the Soviet style absolutely dominate again.




Over the next 2 decades coaches started to dissect What the f*** was happening, and how they were able to do this. And this has now turned the entire NHL into the puck-posession style game we often see today.




Incredible movie:

I have to correct my self, I read the thread as greatest European NHL player of all time, strange, i was totally sure i saw it, so this is my fault, but i also think the lines of CSKA is an anomaly, lets say, McKinnon, Crosby; Makar, McDavid type of players etc was playing on same line for a decade would do, it would become otherwordly after the chemistry is set and having imo best goalkeeper of all time in Tretiak.
The were good when they came to NHL the soviets, but not THAT good.
 
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What ive heard from older guys, well people in the 70s is that Charlamov was the best, some of them argue that Pushkas was the best soccerplayer of all time, in some cases i think everybody is a child of their own time.
And for and a lot of people its way easier to idolise someone when your a kid, and more difficult to appreciate someone thats 10 years or more younger.
 
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Goalie and skaters are too different to argue over which is more important. Hasek obviously the best Euro goalie ever. Jagr used to be best forward. Ovi has taken over that spot. I say that as a massive fan of Jagr since his rookie season.

Most goals ever (soon). Combine that with his impressive hit totals and ability to be an absolute wrecking ball defensively and you have quite a unique player during the cap era. Account for adjusted goals and Ovi blows everyone out of the water. No other elite Euro scorer has combined physical play and elite goal scoring ability like Ovi has.
 
No, Lidstrom is far below.

His peak doesn't come close. He was never in contention for the best player in the world, never close to a hart trophy. Insane prime, but definitely below the other 3.

He's one of those guys that HF loves to overrate though.
Using awards voted on by teh media, when they're heavily biased towards forwards is certainly something. Lidstrom is one of the best defensemen of all time.
 
Using awards voted on by teh media, when they're heavily biased towards forwards is certainly something. Lidstrom is one of the best defensemen of all time.

Of course he's one of the best defensemen of all-time. But he's still behind the other 3 players all-time, clearly so.

I have Lidstrom closer to ~20th all-time, whereas I have Jagr/Ovechkin/Hasek in the ~6th to 12th position all-time.

You don't have to use Hart voting if you don't want to - he still lacks on peak. What year do you think he deserved to win a hart, even as a defenseman? Contrast that to Raymond Bourque, I think he had at least 2 seasons better than Lidstrom's best.
 
Top1 PPG:
Ovi 3
Jagr 3

Top1 GPG:
Ovi 8
Jagr 1

Harware:
Ovi 18
Jagr 9

Top 3 PPG:

Jagr - 9x
Ovechkin - 3x

Top 2 Points:

Jagr - 7x
Ovechkin - 3x

Top 3 assists:

Jagr - 6x
Ovechkin - 0x

Tier 1 Hardware (Ross/Smythe/Lindsay/Hart)

Jagr -9x
Ovechkin - 8x

Easy to make things look a certain way if you want to.
 
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Top 3 PPG:

Jagr - 9x
Ovechkin - 3x

Top 2 Points:

Jagr - 7x
Ovechkin - 3x

Top 3 assists:

Jagr - 6x
Ovechkin - 0x

Tier 1 Hardware (Ross/Smythe/Lindsay/Hart)

Jagr -9x
Ovechkin - 8x

Easy to make things look a certain way if you want to.
Teammates hardware:
Ovi's - zero
Jagr's - zillion

Also Ovechkin was robbed by envy canadians. He should has 3 Ross; 4 Harts. So it's 11.
 
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Top 3 PPG:

Jagr - 9x
Ovechkin - 3x

Top 2 Points:

Jagr - 7x
Ovechkin - 3x

Top 3 assists:

Jagr - 6x
Ovechkin - 0x

Tier 1 Hardware (Ross/Smythe/Lindsay/Hart)

Jagr -9x
Ovechkin - 8x

Easy to make things look a certain way if you want to.

Might be worth adding this too.

Additional Hart finalist nominations:

Jagr- 5x (4 runner-ups included)
Ovechkin- 2x (2 runner-ups included)

Teammates hardware:
Ovi's - zero
Jagr's - zillion

Nearly irrelevant.

Jagr doesn't win the Art Ross in 2000-2001 without the return of Lemieux. I've long beaten that drum.

Other than that, he won all his hardware without Lemieux.
 
Top1 PPG:
Ovi 3
Jagr 3

Top1 GPG:
Ovi 8
Jagr 1

Harware:
Ovi 18
Jagr 9

I'd be more interested to see this list if you removed Gretzky/Lemieux. I bet it still favors Ovie, but I think that's a more fair comp as Ovie never had to play against guys on the level of those two.

Note: I'm on the fence either way, but I think I ultimately lean Hasek. I'd have Lidstrom 4th.
 
It's a team sport.
Remove one star and opponents have 2x more time and attention for another star.

What are you not getting?

You brought up trophy count by teammates to try and diminish the amount Jagr won because he played with Lemieux.

I pointed out that you made an argument in bad faith (something I’ve seen you accuse others of countless times).

Minus the Art Ross I highlighted myself, Jagr won all his individual hardware during seasons Lemieux did not play (1994-1995, 1997-1998 through 1999-2000, and 2005-2006).
 
I hate this logic.

Ovechkin is 9 goals away. He's either great enough to surpass Jagr today, or he isn't - +/- 9 goals makes no difference.

For the record - I think Ovechkin is amazing, and just said above that both him and Jagr are close. But 9 career goals shouldn't matter.

Hah it strangely does?

I never watched Orr or Howe play. But I have mad respect for them after hearing the legacy of what they did and why the game formed into what it was.

And when you talk about a Dman winning the Art Ross, or the Gordie Howe being the all-time points leader when I was a kid carried a lot of gravitas.

Jagr being 2nd in points behind Gretzaky is a HUGE deal, and probably one of the biggest reasons he's on this list.


OV is clearly the greatest goalscorer of all-time. His exclusion from GOAT-Euro becomes incredibly difficult when he's the sole owner of that record.
 
my ranking for greatest ever

1. Gretz
2. Howe
3. Orr/Lemieux
4. Lemieux/Orr
5. Mcdavid
6. Hasek
7. Crosby/Bobby Hull
8. Bobby Hull/Crosby
9. Jagr/OV
10. OV/Jagr

I Have him as either 2nd or 3rd Greatest Euro all time with Hasek being # 1 for me
 

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