Is Hasek really the best goaltender?

[Zine]

How many of Roy's game 7s came back when a .900 save percentage was outstanding though?

And when you look at those records in game 7s it just reinforces the fact that "clutch" is more our perception of events.

None of their records are impressive whatsoever in game 7s.

The vast majority of series was when Roy was with Colorado......so dead puck era statistics.
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/roy.html


But, yes, I do agree that "clutch" is often our perception of events.....or at least we selectively remember certain events while discarding a hostful of others.

I think, more than anything, these W/L stats prove that hockey is a team game, and that team achievement (wins, losses, cups) should not be weighed as heavily as individual performance.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

look, i hear you guys. hasek was a great goalie in the playoffs. i'd rank him ahead of richter, beezer, and other guys of his generation that have good playoff reps. belfour, almost certainly. barrasso, with some hesitation, but not a lot. vernon or fuhr, well i'll need to think about that. but we're comparing him to roy and brodeur here. of their era, roy is untouchable. i don't think anyone would argue that.

as for brodeur, two of the stats bonvie quoted above are pretty close, but the important one is not. if it were a question of who i would go into the playoffs with in his prime, i'd have to think long and hard about hasek vs. brodeur. but if it's a question of who is the better playoff goalie all-time, i think it's brodeur by some distance.

hasek has a cup, and has a near-smythe in a separate run. that's awesome. but brodeur has three cups, another finals, he came within a matteau goal of another finals, he has a near-smythe ('03), and a lot more wins and games played. some of that is opportunity, for sure. he consistently played on better teams when their careers overlapped. but this comes down, as it often does on this board, to not penalizing guys for what they did with the opportunities they were given, and to not giving guys credit for things they could have done under different circumstances.

the discrepancy in wins is enormous-- more than two stanley cups' worth of wins.here's an example that takes the question to a much larger extreme than the hasek vs. brodeur in the playoffs comparison. brian propp and marcel dionne have almost identical playoff point per game averages. all-time, there is no question dionne is the superior player. but you would still have to go with propp as having had the better playoff career because of all those extra games he played, all those extra big games he played, and all of those extra big goals he scored, even if we might speculate that dionne could have done just as much if not more if he had been on those flyers teams in his prime.

Are you playing coy or do you really not understand that this is the product of the team, not the goalies?

In the 3 years that the Devils won the Cup, Brodeur's goals against were 1.61, 1.65, 1.67. On a team with no real superstars other than him, doesn't it make you wonder how he didn't win a Conn Smyth Trophy? The answer is, because the voters watched the games and realized Brodeur didn't have to do a whole. Remember game 6 in Toronto in 2000 where he had a 6 save shutout? Down 3-2 in a series, back at home, and the Leafs managed 6 shots. Its possible Hasek was facing more shots than that on a single powerplay against the Flyers that year in the playoffs.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

.......yeah. some of the things I am reading in this thread are really making me shake my head. A 5 in the playoffs?

the number itself is arbitrary and only makes sense in relation to roy's 10 (i.e., the gold standard of their era) and brodeur's 7. it was an attempt to put some real distance between roy, brodeur, and hasek, instead of assigning a 1, 2, or 3 to each for playoff and regular performance and saying at the end that each has a score that adds up to 4.

if it would make you feel better, we can say if roy is 100 and brodeur is 85, then hasek is 75. we could alternately say that roy is 100, brodeur 97, hasek 95. or we could say that if roy is 1,000,000 and brodeur is 900,000, then hasek is 825,000. any of those work for you?

the discrepancy in wins is enormous-- more than two stanley cups' worth of wins.

Are you playing coy or do you really not understand that this is the product of the team, not the goalies?

In the 3 years that the Devils won the Cup, Brodeur's goals against were 1.61, 1.65, 1.67. On a team with no real superstars other than him, doesn't it make you wonder how he didn't win a Conn Smyth Trophy? The answer is, because the voters watched the games and realized Brodeur didn't have to do a whole. Remember game 6 in Toronto in 2000 where he had a 6 save shutout? Down 3-2 in a series, back at home, and the Leafs managed 6 shots. Its possible Hasek was facing more shots than that on a single powerplay against the Flyers that year in the playoffs.

realistically, hasek's best run ('00) is about equal brodeur's best run ('03). hasek's second best run (with detroit in '02) wasn't exactly the stuff gigueres are made of, and can be compared to either of brodeur's other cups.

as for me being coy and/or stupid, i will also direct to you the part of my post directly above what you quoted:

look, i hear you guys. hasek was a great goalie in the playoffs. i'd rank him ahead of richter, beezer, and other guys of his generation that have good playoff reps. belfour, almost certainly. barrasso, with some hesitation, but not a lot. vernon or fuhr, well i'll need to think about that. but we're comparing him to roy and brodeur here. of their era, roy is untouchable. i don't think anyone would argue that.

as for brodeur, two of the stats bonvie quoted above are pretty close, but the important one is not. if it were a question of who i would go into the playoffs with in his prime, i'd have to think long and hard about hasek vs. brodeur. but if it's a question of who is the better playoff goalie all-time, i think it's brodeur by some distance.

hasek has a cup, and has a near-smythe in a separate run. that's awesome. but brodeur has three cups, another finals, he came within a matteau goal of another finals, he has a near-smythe ('03), and a lot more wins and games played. some of that is opportunity, for sure. he consistently played on better teams when their careers overlapped. but this comes down, as it often does on this board, to not penalizing guys for what they did with the opportunities they were given, and to not giving guys credit for things they could have done under different circumstances.

the discrepancy in wins is enormous-- more than two stanley cups' worth of wins.

here's an example that takes the question to a much larger extreme than the hasek vs. brodeur in the playoffs comparison. brian propp and marcel dionne have almost identical playoff point per game averages. all-time, there is no question dionne is the superior player. but you would still have to go with propp as having had the better playoff career because of all those extra games he played, all those extra big games he played, and all of those extra big goals he scored, even if we might speculate that dionne could have done just as much if not more if he had been on those flyers teams in his prime.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Brodeur has never led the league in save percentage, something Hall did twice. Brodeur has never been top-2 in save percentage, something Hall did nine times.

Brodeur's save percentages:
3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th

Hall's save percentages:
1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd....

It's not quite an apples to apples comparison, though. Brodeur had to face Hasek in his prime, who Hall wouldn't have beaten in save % either.

Also, as we talked about before, you can't compare season by season stats between O6 goalies and modern goalies, as Hall was basically guaranteed a top 6 finish in every year. A 3rd place in save % is very impressive in a 30 team league (especially with a large number of teams giving their backups enough starts to qualify), especially playing at the same time as Dominik Hasek, who nobody would have beaten in terms of save % in his prime. A 3rd place in save % in a 6 team league means you are a bit above average.

 

[BraveCanadian]

It's not quite an apples to apples comparison, though. Brodeur had to face Hasek in his prime, who Hall wouldn't have beaten in save % either.

Also, as we talked about before, you can't compare season by season stats between O6 goalies and modern goalies, as Hall was basically guaranteed a top 6 finish in every year. A 3rd place in save % is very impressive in a 30 team league (especially with a large number of teams giving their backups enough starts to qualify), especially playing at the same time as Dominik Hasek, who nobody would have beaten in terms of save % in his prime. A 3rd place in save % in a 6 team league means you are a bit above average.

Damn you and your logic!

You're right though. 3rd out of 30 isn't too shabby at all.

I was actually surprised at how well Roy did keeping up to be honest when I looked at those links earlier for that matter..

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Are you playing coy or do you really not understand that this is the product of the team, not the goalies?

In the 3 years that the Devils won the Cup, Brodeur's goals against were 1.61, 1.65, 1.67. On a team with no real superstars other than him, doesn't it make you wonder how he didn't win a Conn Smyth Trophy? The answer is, because the voters watched the games and realized Brodeur didn't have to do a whole. Remember game 6 in Toronto in 2000 where he had a 6 save shutout? Down 3-2 in a series, back at home, and the Leafs managed 6 shots. Its possible Hasek was facing more shots than that on a single powerplay against the Flyers that year in the playoffs.

So we are using one single series versus the Leafs, when Brodeur was playing behind the most stacked Devils team ever, against an opponent that was poorly coached and full of perimeter players who wouldn't dump and chase or go to the net, and using it as a representation of his whole career?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

realistically, hasek's best run ('00) is about equal brodeur's best run ('03). hasek's second best run (with detroit in '02) wasn't exactly the stuff gigueres are made of, and can be compared to either of brodeur's other cups.

as for me being coy and/or stupid, i will also direct to you the part of my post directly above what you quoted:

Coy and stupid are not the same. I would not use the term stupid. Many of us are coy in the presentation of our arguments, that is, using things that help and conveniently leaving out what we know will hurt. Such as conviently not explaining how Brodeur managed to have great numbers but no Conn Smyth in 3 Cup winning years.

 

[BraveCanadian]

So we are using one single series versus the Leafs, when Brodeur was playing behind the most stacked Devils team ever, against an opponent that was poorly coached and full of perimeter players who wouldn't dump and chase or go to the net, and using it as a representation of his whole career?

That was the extreme example but I bet you that the average shots faced in Brodeurs shutouts are much less than in Roy's or Hasek's.

And man.. I agree those Leafs were gutless.. I was embarrassed by them. Where was Gary or Wendel or Dougie when you needed them?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Coy and stupid are not the same. I would not use the term stupid. Many of us are coy in the presentation of our arguments, that is, using things that help and conveniently leaving out what we know will hurt. Such as conviently not explaining how Brodeur managed to have great numbers but no Conn Smyth in 3 Cup winning years.

Questions like this really make me wish that they released full Conn Smyth voting, so it wasn't such an either/or thing. I would venture a guess that Brodeur would have been 3rd in 1995 in CS voting (behind Lemieux and Stevens) and 2nd or 3rd in 2003 (behind Giguere from the losing team and arguably Niedermayer).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Coy and stupid are not the same. I would not use the term stupid. Many of us are coy in the presentation of our arguments, that is, using things that help and conveniently leaving out what we know will hurt. Such as conviently not explaining how Brodeur managed to have great numbers but no Conn Smyth in 3 Cup winning years.

looks like devilmademe has just explained the conn smythe thing for me. i think i accounted for the discrepancy between hasek and brodeur's respective teams in the rest of my post.

 

[Dreakmur]

It's not quite an apples to apples comparison, though. Brodeur had to face Hasek in his prime, who Hall wouldn't have beaten in save % either.

Also, as we talked about before, you can't compare season by season stats between O6 goalies and modern goalies, as Hall was basically guaranteed a top 6 finish in every year. A 3rd place in save % is very impressive in a 30 team league (especially with a large number of teams giving their backups enough starts to qualify), especially playing at the same time as Dominik Hasek, who nobody would have beaten in terms of save % in his prime. A 3rd place in save % in a 6 team league means you are a bit above average.

If you want to try too equalize the leagues based on percentiles, then top-10 for Brodeur is equal to top-2 for Hall. (top 1/3)

Even with that, Hall was 9 times in the top 3rd, and Brodeur was only there 6 times.

 

[Canadiens1958]

O6 Goalies

It's not quite an apples to apples comparison, though. Brodeur had to face Hasek in his prime, who Hall wouldn't have beaten in save % either.

Also, as we talked about before, you can't compare season by season stats between O6 goalies and modern goalies, as Hall was basically guaranteed a top 6 finish in every year. A 3rd place in save % is very impressive in a 30 team league (especially with a large number of teams giving their backups enough starts to qualify), especially playing at the same time as Dominik Hasek, who nobody would have beaten in terms of save % in his prime. A 3rd place in save % in a 6 team league means you are a bit above average.

Very presumptuous. Take Glenn Hall and Jacques Plante as examples. During the Original 6 era, the teams would play a significant number of sequences of 3 games in 4 nights or even 4 games in 5 nights.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1960_games.html

Canadiens schedule above from 1959-60 has 13 such sequences and the regular goalie Plante or in the case of the Hawks,Hall played every minute. During the Sabres 1997-98 season the team had about half as many such sequences and Hasek only played all three complete games twice - usually spelled for a game or at least a period by Steve Shields.Fatigue was definitely less of a factor during the Hasek era.Hall played over 500 consecutive games, regular season and playoffs. Hasek never played a complete season, usually playing significantly under 90% of a season.

The perimeter game was not part of the O6 era. The shots were taken mainly from the slot and prime scoring areas. The difference in goalies SV% when facing a perimeter offense as opposed to the crash the net / slot offense was clearly illustrated during the 2009-10 playoffs.

Injuries. No face masks vs face masks. Hasek would feel a twinge and pull himself from the game. Plante or Hall would take a vicious shot to the face requiring stitches and would be back in goal within 30 minutes.

O6 SV%, regular season or playoffs, > .900 tended to the remarkable. Hasek was an excellent goalie who excelled against the perimeter offense if surrounded with a solid team defense but against the perimeter offense many goalies shine.

 

[Big Phil]

But what often doesn't get mentioned is Brodeur's career has been a blend of both. Playoff success that can be compared to Roy's and regular season peaks that have been every bit as good as Hasek's

I don't think the playoff success of Brodeur can be compared to Roy. And I also think the regular season success is not at Hasek's level either. Yes Brodeur has a nice blend of both but in each case he is far from the best.

Another thing...The divisional playoff system of the 1980's where only 1 team missed the playoffs in the Adams dvision, one of the weekest division in all of hockey was a padding system for playoff wins for Boston and Montreal -- Imagine if Brodeur had a gimme first round every single year vs. a sub .500 Hartford, Quebec or Buffalo.
Roy had a lot of years beating Hartford in the first round in that playoff format. Same for Fuhr in the Smythe -- gotta love Winnepeg wins.

But so did Vernon, Smith, Fuhr, Barrasso etc. They all had that same format. Not to mention, let's not assume Brodeur didn't have some gimme 1st round matchups either. 1997 vs. Montreal. What SHOULD have been a gimme in 1998 vs. Ottawa. 2001 vs. Carolina. 2003 vs. Boston and then the next round vs. Tampa. Not exactly powerhouses either. The bottom line is no one has come close to the playoff success of Roy as a goalie since expansion.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ken Dryden

But so did Vernon, Smith, Fuhr, Barrasso etc. They all had that same format. Not to mention, let's not assume Brodeur didn't have some gimme 1st round matchups either. 1997 vs. Montreal. What SHOULD have been a gimme in 1998 vs. Ottawa. 2001 vs. Carolina. 2003 vs. Boston and then the next round vs. Tampa. Not exactly powerhouses either. The bottom line is no one has come close to the playoff success of Roy as a goalie since expansion.

Consider Ken Dryden. Playoffs,6 Stanley Cups, 80W 32L = .714 Winning %, 19 series won while losing 2 series.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Consider Ken Dryden. Playoffs,6 Stanley Cups, 80W 32L = .714 Winning %, 19 series won while losing 2 series.

On accomplishments he is even better.

The problem is separating his part from the team in the creation of an overpowering dynasty.

I mean his backup those years was also winning at a > 2-1 pace when he actually got to play in the regular season too. In 75-76 Michel Laroque was 16-1, 76-77 he was 19-2, 77-78 22-3.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

I mean his backup those years was also winning at a > 2-1 pace when he actually got to play in the regular season too. In 75-76 Michel Laroque was 16-1, 76-77 he was 19-2, 77-78 22-3.

Loved Bunny, he was a great character, but he built that record on games against the likes of the Barons, Rockies and Capitals. IMO he was the weak link on that dynasty. An injury in the playoffs to Dryden and winning cups would be a whole lot harder.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

So we are using one single series versus the Leafs, when Brodeur was playing behind the most stacked Devils team ever, against an opponent that was poorly coached and full of perimeter players who wouldn't dump and chase or go to the net, and using it as a representation of his whole career?

Its just an example.

Besides, if it was such a mismatch, how did the Leafs win 2 games in the series?

And how is it that there is no other comprable playoff examples?

 

[seventieslord]

How many of Roy's game 7s came back when a .900 save percentage was outstanding though?

Also, his aggregate game 7 results are influenced by a massive outlier.

 

[seventieslord]

the number itself is arbitrary and only makes sense in relation to roy's 10 (i.e., the gold standard of their era) and brodeur's 7. it was an attempt to put some real distance between roy, brodeur, and hasek, instead of assigning a 1, 2, or 3 to each for playoff and regular performance and saying at the end that each has a score that adds up to 4.

if it would make you feel better, we can say if roy is 100 and brodeur is 85, then hasek is 75. we could alternately say that roy is 100, brodeur 97, hasek 95. or we could say that if roy is 1,000,000 and brodeur is 900,000, then hasek is 825,000. any of those work for you?

No. While they make much more relative sense, I would not accept any hypothesis that puts Brodeur over Hasek in any enironment. I think hasek was generally the same generational talent in the playoffs that he was in the season, and Brodeur was the same very good goalie that he always was. I refuse to reward them for the actions of their teammates, or their GMs.

 

[Landeskog]

i normally say Tretiak ,Hasek, Roy, Sawchuck, Dryden, Bower then Marty B

 

[quoipourquoi]

On the average you're certainly correct....however, this wasn't the case with Roy.

Roy faced weaker competition the majority of his game 7's. Of his 13 career series that went the distance, only 5 opponents were of higher seeding.


Again, it's only a minute statistic....but it's quite ironic that the widely considered most 'clutch goalie of all time' actually has a losing record in winner takes all games (against a majority of lesser seeds nonetheless) and with (even more telling) a painfully average sv%.

His "painfully average" save percentage might have to do with the small sample size, considering the worst day of his 1,276 game career happened to fall on one of the 13 games of which we are evaluating. After all, going into Game 7 against Detroit (his third Game 7 of that postseason), his SPCT was .923 and his record was 6-5 with a 2-0 record in OT, 2 shutouts, and only one loss to a lower-ranked team.

1986 Hartford (-3 points): 2-1 OT W, 24/25 Saves
1991 Boston (+11 points): 2-1 L, 27/29 Saves
1992 Hartford (-28 points): 3-2 OT W, 39/41 Saves
1994 Boston (+1 point): 5-3 L, 26/31 Saves
1998 Edmonton (-15 points): 4-0 L, 13/17 Saves
1999 Dallas (+16 points): 4-1 L, 21/25 Saves
2000 Dallas (+6 points): 3-2 L, 26/29 Saves
2001 Los Angeles (-26 points): 5-1 W, 25/26 Saves
2001 New Jersey (-7 points): 3-1 W, 25/26 Saves
2002 Los Angeles (-4 points): 4-0 W, 23/23 Saves
2002 San Jose (Equal points): 1-0 W, 27/27 Saves
2002 Detroit (+17 points): 7-0 L, 10/16 Saves
2003 Minnesota (-10 points): 3-2 OT L, 27/30 Saves


I'm not saying we shouldn't acknowledge that he lost two Game 7s that he shouldn't have, but I am saying that it is too small of a sample to look at SPCT when his career mark had a near-20-point swing at the age of 36. After all, if we were to play the extrapolating game, we could also say that his record of play in Game 7s also has him on a seasonal pace for 10-12 shutouts, or that Hasek's has him on pace for 22 shutouts in a 22-44 season.

 

[reckoning]

Oddly enough, the majority of the Game 7s that Roy and Brodeur played in came in series where their team lost the Game 6 that forced the Game 7. Of Roy's 13, 9 of them came when his team was up 3-2 then lost Game 6. Of Brodeur's 9, 7 of them were series where the Devils lost Game 6.

It's just that everyone focuses so much on "Game 7", where capitalizing on an opportunity to win the series earlier, or extending a series when facing elimination, is just as important.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Okay, I'm apparently a month or two behind in my KHL news, but was everyone around here aware that Hasek is signed to play with Spartak Moscow next season? I remember hearing rumours (after all, he kicked ass in the Czech league last year, leading his team to the championship), but I just came across the actual "proof": link 1, link 2.

The guy is simply a freak. How do you play that style and still have working knees and a groin at age 45?? On that note, if his team wins the KHL championship next year, and then he retires for good, he will have retired from the NHL as a Cup champion, followed by retiring from the Czech league as champion, and finally from the KHL as champion... all between the ages of 42/43 and 46 (and since he played 41 games with the Red Wings that year, it's somewhat legit to consider him a/the "starting goalie" in each).

 

[greatgazoo]

In his prime, Hasek was out of this world good like Jimi Hendrix was to guitar playing in the late 1960's.

 

[Hardyvan123]

It isn't so much that as Roy's playoff record, performances, and success are pretty much unassailable.

I don't think anyone is dismissing Hasek as a regular season goalie.. just saying that if they were picking for the playoffs they would pick Roy before Hasek.

For example in my case for a playoff run I would choose Roy first, then Hasek and then Brodeur if I was picking from only those three.

Once again does anyone think that the Sabers that Hasek played behind had any kind of TEAM DEFENSE that Roy and Broduer enjoyed?

I really think that playoff success can be attributed too much to certain goalies just like with pitchers in baseball.

Teams wins championships in team sports like hockey and baseball, maybe the closet where one guy can have a huge impact is basketball and even then it's great teams that win just ask Lebron.