Is Hasek really the best goaltender?

[Regal]

Hasek wouldnt make my cut. Ya, he's brilliant. Ya his stats are great. I never liked his complete unorthodoxy & blatant sensationalism when making easy saves, or getting caught so far out of position he was forced to flail & pray on luck. I wouldnt call him the "best", I'd call him the "luckiest goaltender of all time".

It wasn't always pretty, but it worked. He wouldn't have been that good for that long if it was luck.





Oh a side note, I'm still curious of what other people think about what I brought up in a previous post about Roy's prime. While it's generally considered the late 80s/early 90s because of his dominance, was he actually a lesser goaltender the rest of his career (since he was still putting up great stats and winning cups and a Conn Smythe), or did the competition for best goaltender simply get better? In which case Hasek was actually beating out a prime Roy for his awards.

 

[unknown33]

At his absolute best, there was nobody on the planet better than Hasek, but Hasek never had the same kind of CONSISTENT success as Roy, Brodeur, etc. Due to that, I'd put Hasek below those two.

How are 6 Vezina's in a 8 year span not consistent success?

 

[JimEIV]

Another thing that forces me to pick Roy: playoff wins.

We can forgive guys like Plante, Sawchuk, Broda, Hall, Gumper, Bower and even Dryden among others as not having the same amount of wins based on the playoffs being half as long back then and in Dryden's case only three rounds.

But how about other more recent goalies that many of us consider clutch who all had 4 playoff rounds in order to win a Cup? How close are they? Not very, I must say and I don't know how you can't reward Roy for that.

NHL Leaders
Rank Player W
1. Patrick Roy* 151
2. Martin Brodeur 99
3. Grant Fuhr* 92
4. Ed Belfour 88
Billy Smith* 88
6. Ken Dryden* 80
7. Mike Vernon 77
8. Chris Osgood 74
9. Jacques Plante* 71
10. Andy Moog 68
11. Dominik Hasek 65
12. Curtis Joseph 63
13. Tom Barrasso 61
14. Turk Broda* 60
15. Terry Sawchuk* 54
16. Gerry Cheevers* 53

(* is for current HHOFer). Look at Fuhr or Smith, the anchor of dynasties in 4 full rounds and look at how far they are off. Brodeur will never catch him. Osgood is the only other current goalie on that list. Vernon played in 4 finals, not even close. Barrasso is never mistaken for a choker in the playoffs either and he's 90 wins behind. Belfour had some playoff woes early on in his career but came back and he's way off. These are Roy's contemporaries and they aren't even close in playoff wins which I consider to be a very useful stat.

This debate is always interesting to me because it always comes to this:

Roy = Ultimate playoff goaltender

Hasek = Ultimate regular season/stat/peak goaltender


But what often doesn't get mentioned is Brodeur's career has been a blend of both. Playoff success that can be compared to Roy's and regular season peaks that have been every bit as good as Hasek's

He continues to put together amazing regular seasons with unbelievable consistancy ...He has had great playoff success for most of career...I think that blend of all around success is something that never gets considered.



***
Another thing...The divisional playoff system of the 1980's where only 1 team missed the playoffs in the Adams dvision, one of the weekest division in all of hockey was a padding system for playoff wins for Boston and Montreal -- Imagine if Brodeur had a gimme first round every single year vs. a sub .500 Hartford, Quebec or Buffalo.
Roy had a lot of years beating Hartford in the first round in that playoff format. Same for Fuhr in the Smythe -- gotta love Winnepeg wins.

 

[Never]

How are 6 Vezina's in a 8 year span not consistent success?

Compared to Roy and Brodeur? It's not consistent. Those 8 years were his best to be sure, but Roy won 3 Conn Smythes in a 15 year span. Brodeur has been more or less the same goalie since 1994. Maybe tailed off a bit in the last year or so.

Simply put, Hasek's level of play would be consistent when compared to most goalies, but not compared to Roy or Brodeur.

 

[unknown33]

Compared to Roy and Brodeur? It's not consistent. Those 8 years were his best to be sure, but Roy won 3 Conn Smythes in a 15 year span. Brodeur has been more or less the same goalie since 1994. Maybe tailed off a bit in the last year or so.

Hasek became a starter in the NHL being 28 years old. (and this was not because he was bad when he was younger - just read the thread)
In 2001 his last Vezina year he was 36.

 

[pluppe]

To be fair, it should be looked at by decade or era. I wasnt around, but according to some old timers, George Hainsworth was the "greatest of all time". followed closely by ambidextrous Bill Durnan. 50's/60's Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Crozier; post expansion-mid 80's, Parent, Esposito, Cheevers, Dryden, Smith, Fuhr; Late 80's-present, I'd go with Roy or Brodeur even up. Hasek wouldnt make my cut. Ya, he's brilliant. Ya his stats are great. I never liked his complete unorthodoxy & blatant sensationalism when making easy saves, or getting caught so far out of position he was forced to flail & pray on luck. I wouldnt call him the "best", I'd call him the "luckiest goaltender of all time".

if you played one game against a team that was just as strong as yours and you could choose first between the 2 avaliable goalies.

one was the best ever.

one was the luckiest ever.

who would you choose?

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

But what often doesn't get mentioned is Brodeur's career has been a blend of both. Playoff success that can be compared to Roy's and regular season peaks that have been every bit as good as Hasek's

I think the majority of people would disagree with both of the points in your second sentence. The counterarguments seem fairly obvious (Roy's 3 Conn Smythes and 50% more playoff wins than anybody else, Hasek leading the league in save percentage six times in a row and winning 6 Vezinas and 2 Harts including one MVP over a full season of Mario Lemieux), so I'm just wondering what would be the arguments in favour of Brodeur having comparable postseason success to Roy and a regular season peak as good as Hasek's?

 

[BM67]

Not likely son.
Hey, I like Marty, always have but unlike Roy and Hasek, he was never better than the teams he played on.

strange comment....

Are you talking "Cup" teams? Cause if that is the case, the same is true for Hasek...Hasek doesn't even register on the championship scale...also - Brodeur was arguably the best player on his 2003 cup team.

If you are talking about non-Championship teams, Brodeur has been the best player for the Devils since 2003 and during that time produced some his best statiscal seasons without the distinguished defense that everyone wants to credit for Brodeurs success. It is almost impossible to logically argue that Brodeur hasn't been the best Devil for the last 7 or 8 years.

Add that he had a virtual lock on the Devils MVP award for most of the years before that and it looks even stranger.

 

[pluppe]

Call me crazy but I find the 3 Conn Smythes and 4 Cups more prolific. Let's look back and realize that the 1986 and 1993 Habs teams weren't terrible by any means, but they weren't on anyone's radar to win the Cup either. They were both about 7th in points in the regular season. Not exactly Cup favourites either.

And throw in how utterly jaw dropping Roy was those two years. Look at the 1986 overtime game vs. the Rangers. Or the 10 straight overtime wins in 1993. Even in 1996 other than Sakic, Roy was the most important part of that run. 2001 he was superb as well. Hasek made impressive runs with his mediocre teams in 1998 and 1999. Never winning though until 2002 with a team that was supposed to do so.

I am not trying to downgrade Hasek's accomplishments, far from it, but rather promote Roy's. When the chips are down there was probably none better than Roy over his full career, ever. And I really hate saying that about him. But it isn't as if Roy doesn't have his own share of Vezinas to his credit either. With his postseason success I just can't justify putting Hasek ahead of him.

why doesn´t anybody bringing this up ever mention that Montreal in these runs never beat a team that they shouldn´t have a very good chance of beating. in fact they were almost always the favourites. I don´t mean that Roy wasn´t impressive in getting it done. he was. so there´s no need to over-value it.

 

[jkrx]

Compared to Roy and Brodeur? It's not consistent. Those 8 years were his best to be sure, but Roy won 3 Conn Smythes in a 15 year span. Brodeur has been more or less the same goalie since 1994. Maybe tailed off a bit in the last year or so.

Simply put, Hasek's level of play would be consistent when compared to most goalies, but not compared to Roy or Brodeur.

Yeah, because 6 vezinas and 2 harts in consistent to most goalies.

By the way, how many vezinas, conn smythes, all-star teams were he on between 93-02?

why doesn´t anybody bringing this up ever mention that Montreal in these runs never beat a team that they shouldn´t have a very good chance of beating. in fact they were almost always the favourites. I don´t mean that Roy wasn´t impressive in getting it done. he was. so there´s no need to over-value it.

To add to that. The season before 93 the habs won the Jennings trophy. It was probably the most defenively sound team in the early 90s. It wasnt bad in 86 either. In the cup finals they met the kings which were amongst the worst teams in GA.

86 Habs was 4th in GA and 6th in GF. So how bad were they really?

 

[Master_Of_Districts]

Another thing...The divisional playoff system of the 1980's where only 1 team missed the playoffs in the Adams dvision, one of the weekest division in all of hockey was a padding system for playoff wins for Boston and Montreal -- Imagine if Brodeur had a gimme first round every single year vs. a sub .500 Hartford, Quebec or Buffalo.
Roy had a lot of years beating Hartford in the first round in that playoff format. Same for Fuhr in the Smythe -- gotta love Winnepeg wins.

Firstly, one team missed the playoffs in every division aside from the Patrick, which contained six teams.

Secondly, the Adams division was not one of the "weekest" divisions in hockey during the 80s. It was one of the strongest divisions, if not the strongest division.

For example, from 1981-82 to 1989-90, the teams in the Adams Division had an aggregate record of 1699-1472-429.

 

[JimEIV]

I think the majority of people would disagree with both of the points in your second sentence. The counterarguments seem fairly obvious (Roy's 3 Conn Smythes and 50% more playoff wins than anybody else, Hasek leading the league in save percentage six times in a row and winning 6 Vezinas and 2 Harts including one MVP over a full season of Mario Lemieux), so I'm just wondering what would be the arguments in favour of Brodeur having comparable postseason success to Roy and a regular season peak as good as Hasek's?

I think you missed my point entirely.

The point is, If you look in the terms of Post-season success you have a scenario of
1. Roy
2. Brodeur
3. Hasek

If you look at in terms of regular season success you then have a reversial of order
1.Hasek
2.Brodeur
3.Roy


When you look at in these terms for these 3 specific players, Hasek’s comparable for regular season success, if there is one, is clearly Brodeur over Roy.

Again, for these 3 specific players, Roy’s comparable for post season success is clearly Brodeur over Hasek.

I personally think that blend of post season success and regular season success along with the years of consistency is often forgotten or at least not factored for Brodeur – His regular season success (while still amazing) may not be as great as Hasek’s but his playoff success blows him away….Brodeur’s Playoff success (Again, while still amazing) may not be as great as Roy’s but his regular season success really blows him away.

So in a lot of respects I see Brodeur as having the best blend of all around success.

Just my perspective.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This debate is always interesting to me because it always comes to this:

Roy = Ultimate playoff goaltender

Hasek = Ultimate regular season/stat/peak goaltender


But what often doesn't get mentioned is Brodeur's career has been a blend of both. Playoff success that can be compared to Roy's and regular season peaks that have been every bit as good as Hasek's
He continues to put together amazing regular seasons with unbelievable consistancy ...He has had great playoff success for most of career...I think that blend of all around success is something that never gets considered.



***
Another thing...The divisional playoff system of the 1980's where only 1 team missed the playoffs in the Adams dvision, one of the weekest division in all of hockey was a padding system for playoff wins for Boston and Montreal -- Imagine if Brodeur had a gimme first round every single year vs. a sub .500 Hartford, Quebec or Buffalo.
Roy had a lot of years beating Hartford in the first round in that playoff format. Same for Fuhr in the Smythe -- gotta love Winnepeg wins.

Brodeur has been in the top ten in save percentage 6 time. Never higher than 3rd.

Hasek led the league 6 times in save percentage. One 2nd, one 3rd. 11 times in the top 10, which means his whole career.

How is that every bit as good?

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think you missed my point entirely.

The point is, If you look in the terms of Post-season success you have a scenario of
1. Roy
2. Brodeur
3. Hasek

I'd take Hasek playing his best over Brodeur in the post season any day. Or are you just counting Stanley Cups here?

If you look at in terms of regular season success you then have a reversial of order
1.Hasek
2.Brodeur
3.Roy

If you are talking about team success then Brodeur > Roy > Hasek for regular season. If we are talking awards then this list might be correct but Brodeur has been padding his the last several seasons against sub par competition.

If we are talking about ability, I honestly can't see how you can have Brodeur in 2nd in both lists. His greatest ability is his consistency. He never dominated the regular season or playoffs like Hasek and Roy did.

I think most people in the thread agree that Hasek vs. Roy is in debate but Brodeur is just behind them.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think you missed my point entirely.

The point is, If you look in the terms of Post-season success you have a scenario of
1. Roy
2. Brodeur
3. Hasek

If you look at in terms of regular season success you then have a reversial of order
1.Hasek
2.Brodeur
3.Roy


When you look at in these terms for these 3 specific players, Hasek’s comparable for regular season success, if there is one, is clearly Brodeur over Roy.

Again, for these 3 specific players, Roy’s comparable for post season success is clearly Brodeur over Hasek.

I personally think that blend of post season success and regular season success along with the years of consistency is often forgotten or at least not factored for Brodeur – His regular season success (while still amazing) may not be as great as Hasek’s but his playoff success blows him away….Brodeur’s Playoff success (Again, while still amazing) may not be as great as Roy’s but his regular season success really blows him away.

So in a lot of respects I see Brodeur as having the best blend of all around success.

Just my perspective.

i see what you're saying, but i don't think it's as easy as assigning a 1, 2, or 3 to each player relative to the others and say that they each end up with four points.

for one, playoff success would go something like this:

roy







brodeur






hasek

and regular season success would go:

hasek





brodeur

roy

regular season, both brodeur and roy are well behind hasek, but roy is close to brodeur. playoffs, roy is way ahead, while brodeur is also a good distance ahead of hasek. if we assign numbers to regular season and playoff performance, it might be more accurate to give roy a 10 in the playoffs and 5 in the regular season. hasek would be a 5 in the playoffs and 10 in the regular season. brodeur would be something like a 7 in the playoffs and 6 in the regular season, i.e., behind roy and hasek when you add up the numbers.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Damien Cox? You mean the guy that's a total Leaf homer and has been called out many times over the years for having no clue how interpret stats, especially with goalies.
Same guy who's opinion of players is taken lightly at best and ignored the rest, that Damien Cox

He is also co-author of Martin Brodeur: Beyond the Crease.

By the way, how many vezinas, conn smythes, all-star teams were he on between 93-02?

Two Conn Smythes, a 1st Team All-Star, and a tied Vezina vote. As much as there was a drought during this time for regular season success for Roy (at least in terms of trophies), it was during this stretch that Patrick Roy defined himself as THE playoff goalie, if not player.

From 1993-2002, Roy had 97 playoff wins, which was 30 more than the next best goalie during that span (Brodeur) and 44 more than Hasek. No one disagrees that Hasek owned the regular season from 1993-2002, but Roy wasn't exactly pictured on the back of milk cartons during those ten years (he averaged just short of 11 Wins in each of his nine playoff runs, meaning more or less that Game 7 of the Conference Finals was his average during this time). He was a very relevant hockey player during Hasek's peak.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

i see what you're saying, but i don't think it's as easy as assigning a 1, 2, or 3 to each player relative to the others and say that they each end up with four points.

for one, playoff success would go something like this:

roy







brodeur






hasek


regular season, both brodeur and roy are well behind hasek, but roy is close to brodeur. playoffs, roy is way ahead, while brodeur is also a good distance ahead of hasek. if we assign numbers to regular season and playoff performance, it might be more accurate to give roy a 10 in the playoffs and 5 in the regular season. hasek would be a 5 in the playoffs and 10 in the regular season. brodeur would be something like a 7 in the playoffs and 6 in the regular season, i.e., behind roy and hasek when you add up the numbers.

Brodeur in playoffs: 99-82 2.01 .919
Hasek in playoffs: 65-49 2.02 .925

Pretty close.

 

[Killion]

if you played one game against a team that was just as strong as yours and you could choose first between the 2 avaliable goalies.

one was the best ever.
one was the luckiest ever.
who would you choose?

I'd go with "best", Roy or Brodeur. I also agree that a player "makes his own luck" & Hasek was a genuis in that regard. Didnt mean to infer that he was simply "purely lucky". Tons of talent & skill, very intelligent netminder & person. I look at it more from a coach or player perspective, not fond of heart stopping unorthodox gymnastics' from my goalie. Prefer a more steady, consistent, stable, scientific approach in between the pipes. Purely subjective on my part I guess, but their you go.

 

[arrbez]

Brodeur in playoffs: 99-82 2.01 .919
Hasek in playoffs: 65-49 2.02 .925

Pretty close.

Here's an interesting bit of number crunching: http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/01/which-goalie-was-best-in-clutch.html

It really illustrates how dominant Hasek was in close playoff games. A .970 sv% when his team was leading after two periods, .939 in overtime, .955 when down after two periods, etc.

The fact that he's so often dismissed as a "regular season" goalie is insane.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Here's an interesting bit of number crunching: http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/01/which-goalie-was-best-in-clutch.html

It really illustrates how dominant Hasek was in close playoff games. A .970 sv% when his team was leading after two periods, .939 in overtime, .955 when down after two periods, etc.

The fact that he's so often dismissed as a "regular season" goalie is insane.

It isn't so much that as Roy's playoff record, performances, and success are pretty much unassailable.

I don't think anyone is dismissing Hasek as a regular season goalie.. just saying that if they were picking for the playoffs they would pick Roy before Hasek.

For example in my case for a playoff run I would choose Roy first, then Hasek and then Brodeur if I was picking from only those three.

 

[arrbez]

It isn't so much that as Roy's playoff record, performances, and success are pretty much unassailable.

I don't think anyone is dismissing Hasek as a regular season goalie.. just saying that if they were picking for the playoffs they would pick Roy before Hasek.

For example in my case for a playoff run I would choose Roy first, then Hasek and then Brodeur if I was picking from only those three.

Hey, I'll never question Patrick Roy's playoff resume. I was just commenting more on the ranking I often see that goes:

Roy


Brodeur


Hasek

 

[BraveCanadian]

Hey, I'll never question Patrick Roy's playoff resume. I was just commenting more on the ranking I often see that goes:

Roy


Brodeur


Hasek

If you read back a ways quite a few people were of the opinion that Roy and Hasek are a bit ahead of Brodeur overall and I tend to agree.

Although there is something to be said for Brodeur maintaining his level of play so consistently for such a long time too.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Brodeur in playoffs: 99-82 2.01 .919
Hasek in playoffs: 65-49 2.02 .925

Pretty close.

Here's an interesting bit of number crunching: http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/01/which-goalie-was-best-in-clutch.html

It really illustrates how dominant Hasek was in close playoff games. A .970 sv% when his team was leading after two periods, .939 in overtime, .955 when down after two periods, etc.

The fact that he's so often dismissed as a "regular season" goalie is insane.

look, i hear you guys. hasek was a great goalie in the playoffs. i'd rank him ahead of richter, beezer, and other guys of his generation that have good playoff reps. belfour, almost certainly. barrasso, with some hesitation, but not a lot. vernon or fuhr, well i'll need to think about that. but we're comparing him to roy and brodeur here. of their era, roy is untouchable. i don't think anyone would argue that.

as for brodeur, two of the stats bonvie quoted above are pretty close, but the important one is not. if it were a question of who i would go into the playoffs with in his prime, i'd have to think long and hard about hasek vs. brodeur. but if it's a question of who is the better playoff goalie all-time, i think it's brodeur by some distance.

hasek has a cup, and has a near-smythe in a separate run. that's awesome. but brodeur has three cups, another finals, he came within a matteau goal of another finals, he has a near-smythe ('03), and a lot more wins and games played. some of that is opportunity, for sure. he consistently played on better teams when their careers overlapped. but this comes down, as it often does on this board, to not penalizing guys for what they did with the opportunities they were given, and to not giving guys credit for things they could have done under different circumstances.

the discrepancy in wins is enormous-- more than two stanley cups' worth of wins.

here's an example that takes the question to a much larger extreme than the hasek vs. brodeur in the playoffs comparison. brian propp and marcel dionne have almost identical playoff point per game averages. all-time, there is no question dionne is the superior player. but you would still have to go with propp as having had the better playoff career because of all those extra games he played, all those extra big games he played, and all of those extra big goals he scored, even if we might speculate that dionne could have done just as much if not more if he had been on those flyers teams in his prime.

 

[arrbez]

If you read back a ways quite a few people were of the opinion that Roy and Hasek are a bit ahead of Brodeur overall and I tend to agree.

Although there is something to be said for Brodeur maintaining his level of play so consistently for such a long time too.

100% agree. Having seen the two of them play, nobody will ever convince me that Brodeur is better than Hasek. But his consistency and stamina are phenomenal, and should be commended. His last playoff exit and the Olympics make me wonder if he's finally hitting the wall though, or at least if he should be getting a lighter workload.

 

[VanIslander]

Having seen the two of them play, nobody will ever convince me that Brodeur is better than Hasek.

Exactly. It's not even close, stats be damned!

Put Brodeur on the expansion Columbus BlueJackets for the last decade and we wouldn't even be mentioning him in the same conversation as Hasek. Dominik took a weak blueline and a team sporting a top scorer in Satan to OT of Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals only to lose it on a nongoal. He would have taken Columbus far. Brodeur wouldn't have, was part of one of the most remarkable defensive systems in hockey history, Lou heralding in the trap with their first cup, and playing a goalie-friendly style for over a decade, until the new NHL opened things up.