Is FIN closer to CZE than CAN/USA/RUS/SWE?

[Zine]

Perhaps Finland found too much success in recent years playing ultra-structured hockey, grit, Sisu… Jalonen style.

It’s helps to win games, but if implemented too much at youth levels it stifles creative growth.

 

[ijuka]

Yeah, for some reason hard work and grit isn't a very good paradigm for developing skilled players.

 

[Albatros]

Their oldest relevant player turned 30 this summer (Lindell), wouldn't be too worried just yet.

 

[teravaineSAROS]

I expect Czechia to improve quite a bit, I'd be surprised if they didn't.

What we should talk about is what on earth is Estonia doing? They're surrounded by hockey-loving countries in every direction (Latvia, Belarus, Russia, Finland and Sweden by sea) but they're just like "nah we're good" !?? or did we just forget to tell them about the sport?

 

[Albatros]

Hockey has traditionally been an almost all-Russian sport in Estonia, as a result the national team relies heavily on Estonians that grew up in Finland and ended up playing hockey that way. In Estonia basketball is a much more popular indoor sport.

 

[HockeyWooot]

Ebbs and flows.

It’s nice to have more strong sides in the international game.

 

[FinlandPanther]

And you think this board has no clue about international hockey?

The Swiss are rising. The Czechs are falling. It’s common sense. Finland will always punch above their weight internationally.

 

[NyQuil]

What I will say about Finland is that they typically punch above their weight despite downturns in talent due to their collective level of competitiveness and strong work ethic.

 

[Jared Dunn]

Last 4 Olympics? Lmao.

Attempting to use two tournaments where the competition was dramatically watered down as a "gotcha" is quite the play

 

[bigdog16]

Last 4 Olympics? Lmao.

Lol this is why I have trouble taking Finns seriously on here

 

[HisNoodliness]

oh well. I don't give a f***

Dude your Magnolia song has been sealing the deal for me for years. So sweet, soft and tender, no one can resist its magnetic pull.

So I find this combative attitude quite surprising.

 

[jj cale]

Dude your Magnolia song has been sealing the deal for me for years. So sweet, soft and tender, no one can resist its magnetic pull.

So I find this combative attitude quite surprising.

Well, at some point you get fed up. You have got one guy talking about stereotypes but that's rich, if anyone is stereotyped non stop around here it's Canadian hockey, it's players and it's fans hockey culture. it's not like it's a secret we are public enemy number one for fans from all over yet you dare not make a negative comment with your viewpoint on any matter about anyone else before the white knights come in saying you dare not do that. And these are the same people you've never seen step in and take our case when we are being piled on. Think this guy that responded to me would have said a word reprimanding a poster who would have said the same thing about Canada that I said about Finland? I've been here for years and know this poster and trust me.............he wouldn't have said a thing. It's not like he hasn't had ample opportunity all these years to step in and call out the endless rubbish that gets talked about regarding Canadian hockey on here but I've never seen him do that once and it doesn't take a genius to know why he hasn't, which is kind of my point about why I finally just say F YOU to these posters. Suddenly when it's a Canadian poster calling out some stuff about other peoples hockey...............he's a moral giant.

You can see right through it

I mean I'm not fooled by that and just told him I didn't care about his view of me because I know it's just hypocritical rubbish.

 

[HockeyScotty]

My NHL Date Batabase (Best Squad 3 GK, 8 DF, 14 FW - Total Rating) :

1 Canada 2233
2 USA 2225
3 Sweden 2174
4 Russia 2159
5 Finland 2110
6 Czechia 2018
7 Switzerland 1937
8 Germany 1875
9 Slovakia 1869
10 Belarus 1738

On the other hand in the future (10/15 years), yes Finland will be slightly ahead of Czechia. Draft 2025 will be very bad for Finland.

I've had Denmark, Latvia, and Belarus in the same tier after the top 9 nations; with Norway, Austria, and France coming in close behind.

As far as Finland goes, they still have an absolutely elite full squad that can compete in any best on best tournament; so they remain in the BIG 5 and a notch above the Czech squad (especially when it comes to defense/goaltending).

The issues with Finland in comparison is that, as has been pointed out, their young prospects aren't elite and aren't many and the depth just isn't where the other BIG 5 nations are (as in Finland could ice no more than 2 high end teams; but Canada could field 8-10; USA 4-6; Sweden and Russia 3-4).

But since it's not a "league", only one-off tournaments this shouldn't affect their standing nearly as much as the pipeline problem.

The big hole in their development pipeline that I would be most concerned about is the elite tier on the blueline. U24 they have a good crop of "good prospects": Nyman, Hatakka, Heinola, Niemelä, Tuomisto, Koivunen, Ottavainen, Huuhtanen, Pulkkinen, Soini, Vaisanen, Kiviharju and a few others that all project as fringe NHL/AHL talents with upside but not elite defenders for their age. Jani Nyman could be the jewel of the bunch as far as top 4 NHL impact; and Pulkkinen seems like a high ceiling offensive guy; but that is a big drop off in 4-5 years as Heiskanen, Lindell, and Mikkola, and Ristolainen age out of their prime. Jokiharju, Vaakanainen, and Välimäki are in the same age cohort as Heiskanen and are serviceable NHL players but certainly not a "best on best" defensive tier (Ristolainen isn't either but he's been there at least).

As an outsider, it also feels like Helsinki Jokerit (post-Kekäläinen, c: 2013) moving to the KHL and selling the arena to a Russian oligarch really created a disconnect in their overall pyramid. The premier franchise in the country located in the biggest city and playing in the biggest arena was no longer "Finnish". This was compounded over the past several years with the team leaving the KHL but not able to even play in the big arena due to the ownership issue (thankfully that is finally changing now).

 

[HisNoodliness]

Well, at some point you get fed up. You have got one guy talking about stereotypes but that's rich, if anyone is stereotyped non stop around here it's Canadian hockey, it's players and it's fans hockey culture. it's not like it's a secret we are public enemy number one for fans from all over yet you dare not make a negative comment with your viewpoint on any matter about anyone else before the white knights come in saying you dare not do that. And these are the same people you've never seen step in and take our case when we are being piled on. Think this guy that responded to me would have said a word reprimanding a poster who would have said the same thing about Canada that I said about Finland? I've been here for years and know this poster and trust me.............he wouldn't have said a thing. It's not like he hasn't had ample opportunity all these years to step in and call out the endless rubbish that gets talked about regarding Canadian hockey on here but I've never seen him do that once and it doesn't take a genius to know why he hasn't, which is kind of my point about why I finally just say F YOU to these posters. Suddenly when it's a Canadian poster calling out some stuff about other peoples hockey...............he's a moral giant.

You can see right through it

I mean I'm not fooled by that and just told him I didn't care about his view of me because I know it's just hypocritical rubbish.

Honestly, I'm not really calling you out for it. I was just joking around since I'm a fellow JJ Cale listener. It's rare to see one in the wild these days. I'll stop derailing the thread now.

Yeah, I think the Czechs are pushing into a "big 6" or Finland is falling away from the "big 4." Maybe a bit of both. Do I think the current Czech roster is "one star player away" from the current Finland roster? Nope. But I think in 5-10 years, these teams will be that close. A lot can change in that time too though. All it takes is one surprisingly good crop of players to shift the narrative one way or the other. Regardless, the progress that the Czechs are making should be celebrated. I'm not just saying that for my family in Olomouc.

 

[Czechboy]

Czech roster is "one star player away"

I've been saying we are 3 Germans away from Big 5.lol

If you added Drai, Stutz and Seider to the Czech squad. Now you have a contender!

Of course a legit 1C, 1W and 1D aren't exactly easy to develop and find and I'm not sure anything in our pipe will come within miles of a C like Drai. Kulich and Jiricek are definitely promising though for the 1W and 1D spots in the future.

Nonetheless, till the Czechs fix their NHL D we are not in the big conversation. We either need a tippy top guy or about 8 really solid ones. We currently have neither but do have some guys in the pipe that maybe develop into either of those - Jiricek, Jircek, Svozil, Spacek, Hamara, Alscher, Dvorak, Mrtka, Badinka, Fibigr, Port and I'll add in undrafted Galvas. If those names start popping up on NHL rosters then we may be in for a return!

Definitely won't be this year.lol

 

[HisNoodliness]

I've been saying we are 3 Germans away from Big 5.lol

If you added Drai, Stutz and Seider to the Czech squad. Now you have a contender!

Of course a legit 1C, 1W and 1D aren't exactly easy to develop and find and I'm not sure anything in our pipe will come within miles of a C like Drai. Kulich and Jiricek are definitely promising though for the 1W and 1D spots in the future.

Nonetheless, till the Czechs fix their NHL D we are not in the big conversation. We either need a tippy top guy or about 8 really solid ones. We currently have neither but do have some guys in the pipe that maybe develop into either of those - Jiricek, Jircek, Svozil, Spacek, Hamara, Alscher, Dvorak, Mrtka, Badinka, Fibigr, Port and I'll add in undrafted Galvas. If those names start popping up on NHL rosters then we may be in for a return!

Definitely won't be this year.lol

Honestly, 3 Germans away sounds about right and is a pretty great way to sum it up.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I've had Denmark, Latvia, and Belarus in the same tier after the top 9 nations; with Norway, Austria, and France coming in close behind.

As far as Finland goes, they still have an absolutely elite full squad that can compete in any best on best tournament; so they remain in the BIG 5 and a notch above the Czech squad (especially when it comes to defense/goaltending).

The issues with Finland in comparison is that, as has been pointed out, their young prospects aren't elite and aren't many and the depth just isn't where the other BIG 5 nations are (as in Finland could ice no more than 2 high end teams; but Canada could field 8-10; USA 4-6; Sweden and Russia 3-4).

But since it's not a "league", only one-off tournaments this shouldn't affect their standing nearly as much as the pipeline problem.

The big hole in their development pipeline that I would be most concerned about is the elite tier on the blueline. U24 they have a good crop of "good prospects": Nyman, Hatakka, Heinola, Niemelä, Tuomisto, Koivunen, Ottavainen, Huuhtanen, Pulkkinen, Soini, Vaisanen, Kiviharju and a few others that all project as fringe NHL/AHL talents with upside but not elite defenders for their age. Jani Nyman could be the jewel of the bunch as far as top 4 NHL impact; and Pulkkinen seems like a high ceiling offensive guy; but that is a big drop off in 4-5 years as Heiskanen, Lindell, and Mikkola, and Ristolainen age out of their prime. Jokiharju, Vaakanainen, and Välimäki are in the same age cohort as Heiskanen and are serviceable NHL players but certainly not a "best on best" defensive tier (Ristolainen isn't either but he's been there at least).

As an outsider, it also feels like Helsinki Jokerit (post-Kekäläinen, c: 2013) moving to the KHL and selling the arena to a Russian oligarch really created a disconnect in their overall pyramid. The premier franchise in the country located in the biggest city and playing in the biggest arena was no longer "Finnish". This was compounded over the past several years with the team leaving the KHL but not able to even play in the big arena due to the ownership issue (thankfully that is finally changing now).

Belarus clearly moved up to 10th in my estimates ahead of Denmark last year and given the ages of the players and the draft dynamics, Belarus will overtake Denmark to reach the level of Germany and Switzerland. Latvia is far behind. Just 3 guys in the NHL aged 30 but after that, very few guys established in quality professional leagues.

I rather see the return of the golden top 7 of the 2000s. Next, the silver top 7 with tier 1 (Belarus, Germany, Switzerland) + Tier 2 (Norway, Austria, Denmark, Latvia)

 

[teravaineSAROS]

Well, at some point you get fed up. You have got one guy talking about stereotypes but that's rich, if anyone is stereotyped non stop around here it's Canadian hockey, it's players and it's fans hockey culture. it's not like it's a secret we are public enemy number one for fans from all over yet you dare not make a negative comment with your viewpoint on any matter about anyone else before the white knights come in saying you dare not do that. And these are the same people you've never seen step in and take our case when we are being piled on. Think this guy that responded to me would have said a word reprimanding a poster who would have said the same thing about Canada that I said about Finland? I've been here for years and know this poster and trust me.............he wouldn't have said a thing. It's not like he hasn't had ample opportunity all these years to step in and call out the endless rubbish that gets talked about regarding Canadian hockey on here but I've never seen him do that once and it doesn't take a genius to know why he hasn't, which is kind of my point about why I finally just say F YOU to these posters. Suddenly when it's a Canadian poster calling out some stuff about other peoples hockey...............he's a moral giant.

You can see right through it

I mean I'm not fooled by that and just told him I didn't care about his view of me because I know it's just hypocritical rubbish.

What the €%## is going on here.

I've seen a couple Habs fans or whatever overhype their prospects and argue with others but it doesn't mean I think the entirety of Quebec or Canada has an attitude issue.

First you went all in on offense targeting 5 million people and then someone questions why you did that and now you're the victim. All this because you argued with like 3 posters.

 

[jj cale]

What the €%## is going on here.

I've seen a couple Habs fans or whatever overhype their prospects and argue with others but it doesn't mean I think the entirety of Quebec or Canada has an attitude issue.

First you went all in on offense targeting 5 million people and then someone questions why you did that and now you're the victim. All this because you argued with like 3 posters.

It wasn't so much an attack as a candid telling of the situation on this matter as I see it.

What can I say? I share the same birthday as Bobby Clarke.......it's just in my nature.

my apologies.

 

[Albatros]

As an outsider, it also feels like Helsinki Jokerit (post-Kekäläinen, c: 2013) moving to the KHL and selling the arena to a Russian oligarch really created a disconnect in their overall pyramid. The premier franchise in the country located in the biggest city and playing in the biggest arena was no longer "Finnish". This was compounded over the past several years with the team leaving the KHL but not able to even play in the big arena due to the ownership issue (thankfully that is finally changing now).

It's not like they haven't been developing quite a few prospects in recent years though, just not that many standout players.

Jokerit junior players in the NHL draft:

2016 #5 Olli Juolevi
2017 #29 Henri Jokiharju
2018 #35 Jesse Ylönen
2019 #184 Santeri Hatakka
2020 #82 Joni Jurmo
2021 #59 Samuel Helenius
2021 #68 Samu Salminen
2021 #144 Jaroslav Chmelař
2022 #67 Miko Matikka
2022 #84 Kasper Kulonummi
2022 #148 Otto Salin
2022 #197 Santeri Sulku
2022 #222 Joel Määttä
2023 #36 Kasper Halttunen
2023 #45 Maxim Štrbák
2023 #223 Kalle Kangas
2024 #34 Dominik Badinka

Besides them at least Waltteri Ignatjew and Pavol Regenda are currently under contract in the NHL without having been drafted.

 

[Fatass]

	Active NHL players
Canada	445
United States	298
Sweden	107
Russia	62
Finland	55
Czech Republic	41
Switzerland	12

 

[Czechboy]

	Active NHL players
Canada	445
United States	298
Sweden	107
Russia	62
Finland	55
Czech Republic	41
Switzerland	12

Our 41 is inflated. Eliminate guys with 15 games or less and it goes down fast!

 

[FinPanda]

We have a problem which definitely has nothing to do with any of Finnish HF posters, but its the feeling of being comfortable where we are at and stopped improving. We got so used to success that it went to heads of the Finnish hockey association and they only started caring about money and not the improvement of players. It says enough when some Liiga teams consider their juniors as waste of money. Hockey is just business and not enough people care about maintaining success. It requires learning and teaching skills and taking seriously.

So yeah, we got too arrogant and cocky and success ends in satisfaction.

 

[Jared Dunn]

It feels kinda like some mickey mouse league BS - but I honestly would like to see a tournament that ranks and combines teams outside of the "big 4". Kinda like they did with team Europe but on a smaller scale. Finns with Norway or whoever, Czechs with Denmark etc.

Could be fun, could be neat, although hard to get that country pride for some nonsensical amalgamation I guess

 

[archangel2]

It comes and goes in waves. Countries rise and fall. Canada had run there were no one could catch them, then we dipped for a few years and then came back.