Is Dermott done developing?

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I mean that’s one way to look at that play. The other is if Sandin wasn’t both the weakest and slowest player on the Leafs it’s not a chance against at all.

For all the talk about Dermy...man...how do people see Sandin as this top 4 or more D-man? Sandin is way too slow for this league to add to his smaller stature. Doing a reverse hit once in a while doesn't mean he is strong...he showed his strength trying to get the puck away on that partial breakaway ...there is no strength...it looked like a kid trying to take the puck from his father in the backyard rink.

Dubas is soooo enamored by talent that he often glosses over their faults...Sandin will forever be a 3rd pairing guy like Dermott because he has limitations that are too big to ignore...speed and size.

 

[justashadowof]

Dermott is fine. Has Sandin been sent down yet?

Sandin might be fine too if he wasn't given so much heavy lifting although ideally he should be in the A and an NHL level 3rd pairing defender in his place.

 

[justashadowof]

Make the defense instantly better: add a right side 2nd pairing defender, Dermott goes to the 3rd pairing left side, Holl drops to the 3rd pairing, Sandin (and Liljegren) back to the A.

 

[justashadowof]

Dubas is soooo enamored by talent that he often glosses over their faults...Sandin will forever be a 3rd pairing guy like Dermott because he has limitations that are too big to ignore...speed and size.

Sandin's size would not be a problem if his feet were quicker. He's a gamer, confident and competitive but I'm coming around to accepting that Sandin has his limitations.

 

[Twine Tickler]

His decision making is the main concern I have with him. He's got the raw tools to be a good D man, but he's got some mental work to do to get there first. Issue is that can be something that's hard to overcome

Yup I couldn't agree more. I think he has just enough skill to get himself in trouble TBH. He makes these plays at like a 75% efficiency, so in his mind I am sure he thinks that is a good thing. Unfortunately the margin for error in the NHL does not allow for 25% of your game to be shit.

I had a lot of hope for Derms, and truly would wish him well elsewhere. But there is no risk to moving him at this point IMO. He will never burn us, I am 95% confident of that. He just doesn't think the game at a high level.

Same with Engvall. They both have a very strong raw skillset, but they have among the worst hockey IQ's on the team IMO

 

[sparxx87]

Wait, so now Dermott is low IQ and poor decision maker?

Man, really wish he could have ended up in Seattle… but I’m sure when he moves on and plays well elsewhere it was just luck and neither Dubas or Keefe could have known.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

If you can get an upgrade on Dermott at a similar price, yeah sure.

If not, you're stuck with 1.5 defensemen in the lineup who can actually skate. Rielly-Brodie can't play 30+ minutes every night.

 

[jaric1862]

Dermott-Bogosian was one of the better bottom pairs in the league last year. Like so many other areas, they’ve taken a step back this year. The 3rd pair needs to be sheltered because Sandin can’t skate and it’s still built like a 13 year old boy. He’s got great instincts as a playmaker but he gives up so much without the puck that he’s still a net negative.

Dermott is one of their 4 best D man. Right now he’s probably top 3 with Muzzin struggling as much as he has. With the term and dollars on his contract, they really need Muzzin to bounce back or that’s even more dead money.

If a third pair defensemen who can't play on the PP or PK is one of their best 4 defenseman, then the Leafs are in massive trouble.

Frankly, Sandin and Dermott on a pair together is a recipe for disaster given their small statures and erratic play. Both of them need a steady player like Bogosian with them. Now, the difference between Sandin and Dermott is that Sandin is 21 and has played 44 NHL games...kind of expected that there will be a learning curve. Dermott will be 25 in December and has played 214 NHL games. He's getting to the point where he is what he is, and it's not good enough.

Wait, so now Dermott is low IQ and poor decision maker?

Man, really wish he could have ended up in Seattle… but I’m sure when he moves on and plays well elsewhere it was just luck and neither Dubas or Keefe could have known.

Did you miss game 6 overtime against the Habs last season?

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Dermott leads the team with a 69.5 xGF% and Sandin is next best at 61.2 xGF%. Dermott is right behind Rielly for the team lead among defensemen in terms of goals against per 60 minutes at 5v5 as well. Is it time to see if Dermott or Sandin, or both, are ready to take on more responsibility?
Dermott has consistently put up strong underlying numbers on the third pair in his time with the Leafs but has only been given the opportunity to play higher in the lineup when injuries have forced the Leafs’ hand. He is an exceptional skater who excels retrieving the puck and moving out of the defensive zone, he maintains strong gap control in defensive transition without putting himself in vulnerable positions very often, and he is able to disrupt plays with an active stick

Jake Muzzin’s rough start exemplifies Leafs’ early struggles

 

[Tarmore]

He's 24 and was scratched for Liljegren already over Sandin and he's steadily declined in shots on goal for three years now.

2018/2019: 64 gp 98 shots
2019/2020: 56gp 65shots
2019/2020: 51gp 36 shots

He's really not a great fit for this lineup either since we need serviceable RHD. IMO he's peaked and that's devastating to our depth. Convince me otherwise.

I think I see the problem here. If you use shots on goal for your metric for evaluating defencemen then no wonder you are confused.

 

[sparxx87]

If a third pair defensemen who can't play on the PP or PK is one of their best 4 defenseman, then the Leafs are in massive trouble.

Frankly, Sandin and Dermott on a pair together is a recipe for disaster given their small statures and erratic play. Both of them need a steady player like Bogosian with them. Now, the difference between Sandin and Dermott is that Sandin is 21 and has played 44 NHL games...kind of expected that there will be a learning curve. Dermott will be 25 in December and has played 214 NHL games. He's getting to the point where he is what he is, and it's not good enough.




Did you miss game 6 overtime against the Habs last season?

Who said he can’t play PP or PK?

I did see that one play. That’s what you define him by? Do you think he could have tried to do a little much after inexplicably being removed from the playoff lineup after earning his spot all year? He was removed for a d man who can’t skate or win a 50/50 puck if his life depended on it, but he did offer some playmaking… Dermott seemed like he was pressing to be more of a playmaker and got burned. He never makes that play if his dumbass coach doesn’t have him second guessing himself.

How often does he make the wrong play? For someone with apparently “low IQ” it seems to happen far less than you’d expect, wouldn’t you say?

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

Sandin might be fine too if he wasn't given so much heavy lifting although ideally he should be in the A and an NHL level 3rd pairing defender in his place.

He's been in the A for three seasons and Liljegren for four. Their isn't much left for them to accomplish in the AHL. Bottom pairing minutes in the NHL, is exactly what they need to grow.

 

[CapspaceKiller]

Yeah, pretty much. He's a servicable bottom-pair defenceman, not the leafs worries. Isn't like he's making 3.5m a year.

 

[MattySnipes]

I don't know how much I can blame Demott, he's just ok. I think the Leafs are just terrible at developing dmen. Been going on for years and years. Its why they acquire dmen from other teams but they come here and become even shittier.

 

[noo]

What age do Dmen usually peak at?

AFAIK he hasn't really been given long stretches with big minutes to work out his gaffes, so still makes some kiddish bonehead plays.. I can see him putting it all together at 27-28 and being a well rounded D man , or this is it and he's a #5-6 for life.

Either way I wouldn't be surprised

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Dermy has a year or two left before a final decision on his development will occur .. but last year with Bogo was discouraging for me .. he should be farther ahead .. I hope he is not one of those guys with all da tools but not enough toolbox .. these kinda guys are toughest call for any hockey guy and many people make colossal errors .. I am back and forth by da day

 

[LegChairGM]

I think I see the problem here. If you use shots on goal for your metric for evaluating defencemen then no wonder you are confused.

It's an indication of what he's capable of. Granted he's not horrible defensively he's not exactly a shut down defenseman either. There's reasons why he's not getting shots on net like he used to, maybe increased minutes and responsibility has him overwhelmed?

 

[VanW27]

He's been in the A for three seasons and Liljegren for four. Their isn't much left for them to accomplish in the AHL. Bottom pairing minutes in the NHL, is exactly what they need to grow.

Technically 3 season but he only played 1 game last year due to injuries and only 21 the year before, Sandin only has 66 total AHL games of experience.

 

[BlueAzN]

As long as he isn't doing stupid a$$ spin-o-ramas in his own zone costing goals, he's a solid 6th D plug

 

[IPS]

The Dermott, Lilly and Sandin trio represents the utter failure of this organization for developing D.

Dermott is no doubt the most reliable one at NHL level, but that isn't saying much at all. He gets the lowest TOI of any bottom pair D in the league. I think he really could have been on his way to becoming a TJ Brodie lite if the organization actually developed him properly beside a proper stay-at-home vet during all the years of his early career.

 

[VanW27]

It's an indication of what he's capable of. Granted he's not horrible defensively he's not exactly a shut down defenseman either. There's reasons why he's not getting shots on net like he used to, maybe increased minutes and responsibility has him overwhelmed?

He doesn't fit the sterotypical shut down 3rd pair guy like a Bogosian does (Big, tough, physical) but in terms of results that's exactly what he's given the Leafs.

Strong defense and no offense in sheltered usage. The only issue in that role is he doesn't PK

 

[jiggy35]

I think he would do well with Muzzin but they just refuse to try him there so he’s been in the bottom pair stalemate forever now - I’m sure he wants a change

 

[Confucius]

Well at the least he could get stronger . Hit the gym Travis.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

This is where I’m at. The best bottom pairing the Leafs could ice right now would be Dermott back on his strong side as the LHD and Liljegren as RHD.

But that would involve sending Dubas’ pet Sandin to the press box, so you know that’s not happening.

Sandin and Dermott are 1st in cf%, xGF%, scoring chance%, and 2nd in high danger% out of all defense pairings with at least 50 minutes played. It has nothing to do with Sandin being Dubas' pet, and everything to do with Sandin and Dermott both being better than Liljegren and playing extremely well together

 

[ACC1224]

This is where I’m at. The best bottom pairing the Leafs could ice right now would be Dermott back on his strong side as the LHD and Liljegren as RHD.

But that would involve sending Dubas’ pet Sandin to the press box, so you know that’s not happening.

I don't know why they haven't sent him down but I'd like to believe it isn't because he's a 'pet'.
It's pretty obvious his skating and strength aren't developed enough for the NHL. A full season on the Marlies is needed.