Is Crosby/Ovechkin the best player rivalry in big 4 sports leagues in the 21st century?

[Haatley]

Not even close

Curry and James face off in the finals 4 times. 6 MVPs between the two.

The argument in the Brady/Manning debate wasn't who was the best in the league. It was who the greatest of all time was.

What isn't close?

 

[Video Nasty]

I don't care how people voted, sportswriters are not experts by any means. Especially when not all these games were even available nationwide at the time! Especially the same people who voted Jordan DPOY.

You don’t care, yet you’re willing to die for one sportswriter who is in LeBron’s pocket.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Am I biased?

Sure am.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1844488428160942362

Lattimore and Evans was the first one that came to mind outside of NFL. Love watching those two go against each other

 

[Master P]

Lattimore and Evans was the first one that came to mind outside of NFL. Love watching those two go against each other

Shame Lattimore is out of the division now.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

You don’t care, yet you’re willing to die for one sportswriter who is in LeBron’s pocket.

Lol wut

 

[JianYang]

Really hard to isolate a 1 v 1 in hockey. This one is even more difficult because it's a center vs winger.

 

[Voight]

Going outside of the big 4, a women’s basketball rivalry that I find dumb and contrived is Caitlin Clark vs Angel Reese, mainly because Clark is way better. It’s extra dumb when people say they are the women’s version of Johnson/Bird. I actually found putting things in hockey terms is the easiest way to convey how idiotic this comparison is.

As alluded to in my OP, Johnson/Bird in NHL terms is similar to Crosby/Ovechkin. 2 all time great players who entered the league at the same time to much hype and had some epic clashes. Clark/Reese is like Crosby/Toews, a contrived rivalry made up by the media where one player is clearly better than the other. Heck, the WNBA media overhyping Reese brought back memories for me of what the hockey media did to Toews 10-15 years ago.

Agreed, Reese isn't in the same ball[park as Clark when it comes to skill level. She would probably have less attention round her if social media didn't exist.

Another parallel for the bolded, Johnson/Bird are credited with the NBA's explosion in popularity in the 80s. yes, Jordan was a big factor, but they kickstarted basketballs boom. Ovy/Sid helped reignite interest in the league after a lost season.

 

[Signupnow]

McDavid was 34th in goals last season and you guys call him Jesus lol. Funny enough to set up a goal in soccer you need way more passes so it would make a lot more sense to count points the way Canadians do in hockey. In fact some of the greatest playmakers in history barely scored any assists because they played too deep to be involved in the final pass. Messi had an absolutely amazing WC. He got one of the greatest assists I've ever seen against the Netherlands:


and then another absolutely insane assist against Croatia:


And he did that all as a completely washed up super slow old player. In fact besides Maradona 86 Messi 2022 might be the absolute greatest WC performance ever by any player. He hard carried the entire team got two of the greatest assists ever and 7 goals.

Also I have no idea why you make it look like Cristiano is some sort of a defensive player who presses a ton. He doesn't press at all these are his pressing stats while at MANU a few years back LOL:

View attachment 934447

Cristiano is just a stat padder. He is a decent playmaker but since he joined Real he has really become just a goal scorer kind of like Ovechkin. He doesn't contribute too much beyond the goals. Messi is way more of a rounded player offensively speaking. Since Messi plays a lot deeper he contributes to his team way more. Funny enough lifetime Messi has a higher GPG and even a higher absolute goals scored in a season than any player ever in history.

I don't claim either of them are any good defensively, it was an answeer to someone who's said that messi is a more well rounded player when in fact both roam and messi more so.

Furthermore nobody really care about assists in soccer otherwise Toni kroos would have had won a few balons. Nor do I believe that R7 is better than Messi but to say that he isn't even in the same ballpark like mentioned in this topic is absurd.

Messi have had really bad non group stage performances in world Cup and it's no secret at all, due to that he wasn't even appriciated in his own country for all those years and it isn't like he haven't had a good team around him either but perhaps not tailor cut as it was in Barcelona.

Personally I think ronaldinho was better than both.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

bure fedorov

 

[Nogatco Rd]

There's no such thing as the big four in north America sports. It's largely used by insecure hockey fans. By general public interest in the States, hockey falls behind the NFL, NCAA football, NBA, MLB, and NCAA basketball.

Of course there's such a thing as "a big four." It's a useful shorthand phrase that denotes what is generally accepted as the four most significant professional leagues in NA.

When people refer to a market as a having no major pro sports teams, they mean the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL. Just because hockey is a distant 4th doesn't mean the distinction isn't relevant.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Someone literally poisoned Jordan’s pizza before Finals game. I’m not putting anything past anyone at this point with how far or how crazily they’ll go to be the edgy writer who will demystify Jordan.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/basketball/jordan-s-pizza-guy-spills-the-sauce-if-he-got-food-poisoning-in-the-1997/article_b668a439-efca-51f9-bccc-19c60780e47b.html

 

[x Tame Impala]

That stupid article is paywalled. What about the people who delivered the pizza?? Also people get sick from restaurants all the time without the chefs deliberately poisoning the food. This is asinine

Guys, he was super sick for that game and played through it. It was legendary. What in the hell are you trying to dispel here??? That he was faking being sick?

 

[Overrated]

I don't claim either of them are any good defensively, it was an answeer to someone who's said that messi is a more well rounded player when in fact both roam and messi more so.

Furthermore nobody really care about assists in soccer otherwise Toni kroos would have had won a few balons. Nor do I believe that R7 is better than Messi but to say that he isn't even in the same ballpark like mentioned in this topic is absurd.

Messi have had really bad non group stage performances in world Cup and it's no secret at all, due to that he wasn't even appriciated in his own country for all those years and it isn't like he haven't had a good team around him either but perhaps not tailor cut as it was in Barcelona.

Personally I think ronaldinho was better than both.

Laymen might not care about assists but at the end of the day they are even more important than in hockey. Many midfielders have won ballon d'ors so that point is moot. Even your beloved Ronaldinho was first and foremost a playmaker and not a goal scorer. Zidane is another player who didn't even score that much yet was viewed as one of the greatest of the 90s-00s generation of players.

Your only datapoint is that Messi doesn't cover as much distance per match which is true. How is that an issue though? He runs the most and dribbles the most with the ball out of anyone so he is conserving energy to do so...

Messi is way more well rounded offensively speaking than CR7 that cannot be disputed. He engages in more playmaking than top midfielders while maintaining a higher career GPG than CR7

Cristiano is just better looking. That is about it. It's not close between them. Cristiano was much closer to Lewa or Suarez than he was to Messi.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Most barely even know who these two are

 

[Signupnow]

Laymen might not care about assists but at the end of the day they are even more important than in hockey. Many midfielders have won ballon d'ors so that point is moot. Even your beloved Ronaldinho was first and foremost a playmaker and not a goal scorer. Zidane is another player who didn't even score that much yet was viewed as one of the greatest of the 90s-00s generation of players.

Your only datapoint is that Messi doesn't cover as much distance per match which is true. How is that an issue though? He runs the most and dribbles the most with the ball out of anyone so he is conserving energy to do so...

View attachment 935245

Messi is way more well rounded offensively speaking than CR7 that cannot be disputed. He engages in more playmaking than top midfielders while maintaining a higher career GPG than CR7

View attachment 935247

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View attachment 935249

Cristiano is just better looking. That is about it. It's not close between them. Cristiano was much closer to Lewa or Suarez than he was to Messi.

Barcelona is great at stat passing against lesser teams. However I also think Messi is better however to say they are in a diffent ballpark is a bit rich don't u think?

International​

– Ronaldo holds the record for most international goals, with 123 goals in 201 appearances, surpassing Ali Daei in September 2021.
– Ronaldo has made the most appearances for Portugal, with 201.
– He is also the most capped player in the history of men’s international football, surpassing Al-Mutawa’s record in March 2023.
– Following his brace against Liechtenstein in a Euro qualifier, Ronaldo became the first-ever player to score 100 competitive international goals.
– Ronaldo is the only player to score in 11 consecutive international tournaments, between 2004 and 2022.
– The 38-year-old is the first and only player to score in five World Cups. He’s also only one of five players to have played in five World Cups (alongside Lionel Messi, Lothar Matheus, Rafael Marquez and Antonio Cabral).
– He’s both Portugal’s youngest (21 years & 132 days) and oldest (37 years & 292 days) goalscorer at a World Cup.
– He has the most European Championship goals in history, with 14.
– He scored 32 international goals (club and national team) in 2017, the most by any player in a calendar year.

European​

– He is the first player to score 10 or more Champions League goals for three different clubs.
– Ronaldo has the most Champions League goals in history with 141, 12 more than Messi on 129.
– He broke the record for most goals in a European campaign, with 17 Champions League goals in 2013-14.
– Ronaldo has scored in four Champions League finals, more than any other player.
– He is the only player to score in all six Champions League group games in a single season, having done it in 2017-18 and 2021-22.
– Ronaldo is just the third player to score a Champions League goal against a specific opponent with three different clubs, achieving the feat against Lyon in 2020.

 

[Overrated]

Barcelona is great at stat passing against lesser teams. However I also think Messi is better however to say they are in a diffent ballpark is a bit rich don't u think?

International​

– Ronaldo holds the record for most international goals, with 123 goals in 201 appearances, surpassing Ali Daei in September 2021.
– Ronaldo has made the most appearances for Portugal, with 201.
– He is also the most capped player in the history of men’s international football, surpassing Al-Mutawa’s record in March 2023.
– Following his brace against Liechtenstein in a Euro qualifier, Ronaldo became the first-ever player to score 100 competitive international goals.
– Ronaldo is the only player to score in 11 consecutive international tournaments, between 2004 and 2022.
– The 38-year-old is the first and only player to score in five World Cups. He’s also only one of five players to have played in five World Cups (alongside Lionel Messi, Lothar Matheus, Rafael Marquez and Antonio Cabral).
– He’s both Portugal’s youngest (21 years & 132 days) and oldest (37 years & 292 days) goalscorer at a World Cup.
– He has the most European Championship goals in history, with 14.
– He scored 32 international goals (club and national team) in 2017, the most by any player in a calendar year.

European​

– He is the first player to score 10 or more Champions League goals for three different clubs.
– Ronaldo has the most Champions League goals in history with 141, 12 more than Messi on 129.
– He broke the record for most goals in a European campaign, with 17 Champions League goals in 2013-14.
– Ronaldo has scored in four Champions League finals, more than any other player.
– He is the only player to score in all six Champions League group games in a single season, having done it in 2017-18 and 2021-22.
– Ronaldo is just the third player to score a Champions League goal against a specific opponent with three different clubs, achieving the feat against Lyon in 2020.

What the hell is stat passing? If it was a Barcelona gimmick you'd see his teammates right there with him. The records you posted are mostly about longevity. Here you have top5 EURO leagues "PPG" (only direct primary assists). It's like comparing Ovechkin to Gretzky. Lionel was on another level.

 

[Signupnow]

What the hell is stat passing? If it was a Barcelona gimmick you'd see his teammates right there with him. The records you posted are mostly about longevity. Here you have top5 EURO leagues "PPG" (only direct primary assists). It's like comparing Ovechkin to Gretzky. Lionel was on another level.

View attachment 935445

I meant to say stat padding against lesser teams. Now if you say what about against real madrid 80 percent of the games vs barcelona a player from real was sent off.

Rank	Player	Knockout Games	Knockout Goals
1	Cristiano Ronaldo	82	67
2	Lionel Messi	77	49

As for when it matters in champions league knockout games.

It's like comparing ovie to mats Näslund.

 

[Overrated]

I meant to say stat padding against lesser teams. Now if you say what about against real madrid 80 percent of the games vs barcelona a player from real was sent off.

Rank	Player	Knockout Games	Knockout Goals
1	Cristiano Ronaldo	82	67
2	Lionel Messi	77	49

As for when it matters in champions league knockout games.

It's like comparing ovie to mats Näslund.

Sure buddy

And my favorite one is this one:
Last time Ronaldo scored a World Cup knockout goal he was Brazilian.

 

[Signupnow]

Sure buddy

View attachment 935470


View attachment 935473

View attachment 935474

View attachment 935477

And my favorite one is this one:
Last time Ronaldo scored a World Cup knockout goal he was Brazilian.

Seems to me that messi is incapable of reaching finals lol. And one cannot really compare copa to Europe and Supercopa as anything other than a side project with no prestige in where people play their reserve teams.


Like i said and what is stated above in my pic is that ronaldo has more points per minute than messi got in the world hardest competition which is Champions league because real madrid as well as barcelona in their recent primes would make any world cup team look like a mid tier table team, why? Because they have had the best players from all these countries on every position.

And that Champions league final he didnt score is funny because Ronaldo is the only player in history to score in 4 champions league finals.

To sum it up-

Ronaldo has most goals in UCL in history
Ronaldo scored in most finals in history
Ronaldo has the most UCL titles in History
Ronaldo has more UCL titles than Barcelona as a club
Ronaldo can score goals with his head too
Ronaldo has most goals scored in history for his country/any countryman.
Ronaldo has most points per minute between these two in knockout UCL stages.
And ronaldo also have most goals scored in the history of soccer at a professional level.

What have messsi got again?

 

[Ratbath]

Lebron one is puzzling to me, there was no rivalry between him and Curry really. Lebrons rivals were Kobe, Wade, and later Durant.

Kobe > Lebron

Lebron and Wade were arguably the #1 and #2 basketball players in the world when Lebron decided to join his rival in Miami instead of playing through him and the Celtics.

As a result of that, Durant who emerged a bit later decided to team up with Curry and the dynasty Warriors to beat Lebrons super team that he later forged in Cleveland.



Brady vs Manning makes more sense, these were the true elite #1/#2 in the league that were leading their teams while playing the same position; and not joining rival teams to make super teams.

Crosby vs OV is a close second, to that. Two guys that emerged at the same time possessing different skill sets and both being true elite generational talents.

Wade has never been close to being the #2 player in the world. Stern gifted him a title because he hated Mark Cuban’s guts and then LeBron delivered him a couple more. Wade was a top ten or so player of his era but never in the same realm as many of the guys he played with and against.

 

[Overrated]

Seems to me that messi is incapable of reaching finals lol. And one cannot really compare copa to Europe and Supercopa as anything other than a side project with no prestige in where people play their reserve teams.

He reached 25% more finals in a shorter career span than CR7 and outscored him there too.

And also has more team trophies:

Team Trophies, Honours and Achievements - Messi vs Ronaldo All Team Trophies

Who has won more league titles? What about Champions League trophies? Or overall trophies? Find out all of this and more on messivsronaldo.app.

www.messivsronaldo.app

Like i said and what is stated above in my pic is that ronaldo has more points per minute than messi got in the world hardest competition which is Champions league because real madrid as well as barcelona in their recent primes would make any world cup team look like a mid tier table team, why? Because they have had the best players from all these countries on every position.

Messi has a better G/A in the UCL as a whole. Cristiano has a better G/A in the knockout stage of the UCL.

The game is not just about goals though. Messi plays much deeper and is an actual team player. Do you know there is a Man of the match (MOTM) award after every game? It's like a game MVP. Do you also know there are companies using advanced statistics like SofaScore to rate players in every game? Well even if we focus on the entirely arbitrary UCL knockout (because international knockouts have looked very poor for Cristiano in comparison and he's done worse than Messi in the domestic cup department too and in the El Classicos as well) Messi absolutely dominates again.

So in the only arbitrary picked competition (UCL knockout stage) which is also the only competition where Cristiano achieved a higher G/A than Messi he still performed significantly worse according to UEFA MOTM award and the SofiaScore rating:

That makes sense since Cristiano is a notorious one dimensional stat padder. When he was forced to play in a system at MANU he didn't score as much. Only once he switched to Real where everyone was forced to sacrifice their career. Benzema was only able to shine once Cristiano effed off. It didn't work the other way around though. Cristiano struggled hard without Benzema while Benzema scored more without CR7.

For the longest Benzema was viewed as just "that guy who plays with Cristiano" and once he could play without the poacher stat padder Penaldo his numbers shot up to a point where he at an advanced age of 34 (most players retire at that age) he won both UEFA Player of the Year and the Ballon d'Or.

Once he came to Juventus Dybala's (Juventus' star player) career took a dip as a result. Their best striker Higuain had maybe his worst season in terms of goal scoring once Cristiano came.

Then he went back to MANU, the best players on the team Rashford and Fernandes both had their biggest career dips. No wonder they got rid of Cristiano after a single season.

Cristiano makes everyone around him worse. He is not a team player, just a glorified stat padder. His persona and the entire "rivalry" was carefully crafted as a PR stunt by Real Madrid which built a super team around him to synthetically inflate his stats to make him seem even remotely in the same universe as Messi. They went as far as to force a lifelong Real Madrid fan Magnus Carlsen to change his answer when asked about his favorite RM player in their promo. Magnus answered his favorite player was Isco and they said "Take two, now say Ronaldo".

 

[wintersej]

Name one snap where Brady and Manning were on the field at the same time.

This is a made up requirement.

 

[Signupnow]

He reached 25% more finals in a shorter career span than CR7 and outscored him there too.

View attachment 935879

And also has more team trophies:

Team Trophies, Honours and Achievements - Messi vs Ronaldo All Team Trophies

Who has won more league titles? What about Champions League trophies? Or overall trophies? Find out all of this and more on messivsronaldo.app.

www.messivsronaldo.app

Messi has a better G/A in the UCL as a whole. Cristiano has a better G/A in the knockout stage of the UCL.

The game is not just about goals though. Messi plays much deeper and is an actual team player. Do you know there is a Man of the match (MOTM) award after every game? It's like a game MVP. Do you also know there are companies using advanced statistics like SofaScore to rate players in every game? Well even if we focus on the entirely arbitrary UCL knockout (because international knockouts have looked very poor for Cristiano in comparison and he's done worse than Messi in the domestic cup department too and in the El Classicos as well) Messi absolutely dominates again.

So in the only arbitrary picked competition (UCL knockout stage) which is also the only competition where Cristiano achieved a higher G/A than Messi he still performed significantly worse according to UEFA MOTM award and the SofiaScore rating:
View attachment 935885

That makes sense since Cristiano is a notorious one dimensional stat padder. When he was forced to play in a system at MANU he didn't score as much. Only once he switched to Real where everyone was forced to sacrifice their career. Benzema was only able to shine once Cristiano effed off. It didn't work the other way around though. Cristiano struggled hard without Benzema while Benzema scored more without CR7.

View attachment 935892

For the longest Benzema was viewed as just "that guy who plays with Cristiano" and once he could play without the poacher stat padder Penaldo his numbers shot up to a point where he at an advanced age of 34 (most players retire at that age) he won both UEFA Player of the Year and the Ballon d'Or.

Once he came to Juventus Dybala's (Juventus' star player) career took a dip as a result. Their best striker Higuain had maybe his worst season in terms of goal scoring once Cristiano came.

Then he went back to MANU, the best players on the team Rashford and Fernandes both had their biggest career dips. No wonder they got rid of Cristiano after a single season.

Cristiano makes everyone around him worse. He is not a team player, just a glorified stat padder. His persona and the entire "rivalry" was carefully crafted as a PR stunt by Real Madrid which built a super team around him to synthetically inflate his stats to make him seem even remotely in the same universe as Messi. They went as far as to force a lifelong Real Madrid fan Magnus Carlsen to change his answer when asked about his favorite RM player in their promo. Magnus answered his favorite player was Isco and they said "Take two, now say Ronaldo".


View attachment 935921

Are you under some sort of impression that Messi was on worse team under his prime ? Xavi, Iniesta, dani alves, Busi, Puyol, Pique, Suarez, etoo, Ronaldihio just to name a few and 4 of those in this shortlist of players may be the best that ever graced the pitch in history including messi of course being imo in the top 3 which is very debatable But i feel you are dragging things out of context.

Check how many times Real faced Barcelona without Real being sent of during their prime years it was 11vs10 plus the referee in i would honesltly say 70% of the time. Real madrid during that time was not a super team but developed into one at later stages.

Messis scoring rate is inflated because Barcelonas system is/was brilliant for CRUSHING inferior opponents but they do struggle against better teams. Their entire team was built for messi.

plus Messi also benefit from not being an arrogant player and a media favorite while cristiano and perhaps rightly so was arrogant prick and as you see how these awards in NHL are handed out i believe you get the point.

ive seen all these matches ive been to these games.

And again. Copa finals. Supercup finals Copa america etc doesnt hold much weigh.there are like 3 teams in the whole region who can play ball.

Comparing Messis trophy case filled with irrelevant stuff is like comparing Stanley cup to world cup (hockey)

 

[Roof Daddy]

This thread seems like it went off the rails. Back on track, I will say yes, it is the best rivalry of the 21st century, for the simple fact that the rivalry began before either player set foot in the NHL. You had 2 prospects with extremely high potential to become generation talents, separated by a year. That does not happen often. Similar prospects entering the draft would be Mario, Lindros, McDavid and maybe Bedard. When you look at the gap between those drafts you have 7 years between Mario and Lindros, 13 years between Lindros and Ovechkin (less we forget Daigle), 10 years between Crosby and McDavid, and 8 years between McDavid and Bedard.

Then you have the fact they get drafted onto teams doing a scorched earth rebuild, playing in the same division. You can’t write a better script for a rivalry. They combined for 5 Hart trophies in an 8 year span (and could have been more if Crosby weren’t severely concussed in that time frame).

The only area that would have amplified the rivalry is if they could have squared off in the playoffs a few more times. But I don’t see a rivalry in any sport in the 21st century thus far that comes close to Sid vs Ovie.

 

[Overrated]

Are you under some sort of impression that Messi was on worse team under his prime ? Xavi, Iniesta, dani alves, Busi, Puyol, Pique, Suarez, etoo, Ronaldihio just to name a few and 4 of those in this shortlist of players may be the best that ever graced the pitch in history including messi of course being imo in the top 3 which is very debatable But i feel you are dragging things out of context.

Both played on superteams. Messi elevated his teammates. Cristiano made them worse. How is it hard to understand my point?

Check how many times Real faced Barcelona without Real being sent of during their prime years it was 11vs10 plus the referee in i would honesltly say 70% of the time. Real madrid during that time was not a super team but developed into one at later stages.

Muh referee is the reason Messi beat Cristiano the majority of times. CR7 fans (whom I believe are likely closeted) have the dumbest arguments entirely devoid of logic.

Messis scoring rate is inflated because Barcelonas system is/was brilliant for CRUSHING inferior opponents but they do struggle against better teams. Their entire team was built for messi.

Somehow that didn't extend beyond the UCL though right since Cristiano was unable to beat the top La Liga teams often enough to secure even close to the amount of league titles and Spanish cups to Messi. It also didn't extend to international play since Cristiano has never in his entire career scored a single knockout WC goal LOL and he has played 5 World Cups. He has also scored 0 WC knockout assists in his entire life.

His Euro knockout record is also beyond horrendous. Most of his goals and assists took place in the groups and it took him 252 minutes of knockout time to to get any goal contribution. In his only international trophy he got injured ten minutes into the game and his team won without him.

And again. Copa finals. Supercup finals Copa america etc doesnt hold much weigh.there are like 3 teams in the whole region who can play ball.

Comparing Messis trophy case filled with irrelevant stuff is like comparing Stanley cup to world cup (hockey)

It's in fact much easier to stat pad in Europe. Copa America is genlocked to South America where every nation plays football well. In Europe you're playing against teams like Andorra, Lichtenstein or Faroe Islands lmao. There are 20 countries in Europe with the population of under 5 million. Messi at an old age scored 5 goals against Estonia like two years ago. Impossible to do that in South America.

What is true however is that winning the EUROs is harder due to many more top competitors.