Is Crosby/Ovechkin the best player rivalry in big 4 sports leagues in the 21st century?

[The Gr8 Dane]

The only thing I'll say about LBJ vs MJ is this:
Jordan is the greatest wing of all time. Lebron (who himself would be classified as a wing) is the greatest all-around basketball player of all time.

If the only way you measure greatness is through number of trophies per season, then you should also put Kareem above Lebron, which nobody does.

Lebron gets shade for making the finals , never understood that , you'd think Micheal played 6 seasons in the NBA.

Only NBA fans can make making the finals a bad thing lol.

I have MJ over Lebron but I need somebody to explain why Lebron gets chirped for making the finals instead of losing in the first round like Mike did

 

[Machinehead]

Lebron gets shade for making the finals , never understood that , you'd think Micheal played 6 seasons in the NBA.

Only NBA fans can make making the finals a bad thing lol.

I have MJ over Lebron but I need somebody to explain why Lebron gets chirped for making the finals instead of losing in the first round like Mike did

People have this idea in their heads that 90's NBA was a level of competition above and beyond anything else ever seen.

Meanwhile, look at some of the softballs Jordan played in the Finals. Way past their prime Lakers, the Trail Blazers, the Suns, the Sonics; not exactly dynasties.

 

[Video Nasty]

Lebron gets shade for making the finals , never understood that , you'd think Micheal played 6 seasons in the NBA.

Only NBA fans can make making the finals a bad thing lol.

I have MJ over Lebron but I need somebody to explain why Lebron gets chirped for making the finals instead of losing in the first round like Mike did

I’m a Jordan guy here too, but I’ll do my best to comment with my perception of it all.

There’s a lot that goes into it. The shade that LeBron got for making the Finals and losing is almost entirely concentrated in his first two appearances and the build up before that first championship win. He came up extremely small in that first year in Miami and this was after he had a tantrum the two prior postseasons when he walked off the court against the Celtics and Magic after they deep sixed him and the Cavs. I’m not going to comment on The Decision, other than all of it made him extremely easy to root against, which some simply never got over.

I think over time, most neutral fans can recognize that seeing a player take part in eight consecutive Finals in the modern day carries its own mystique, regardless of results. I think most also understand that most players are likely going to lose three out of four to the Warriors dynasty.

But if we can be fair and neutral in that, we can also acknowledge that when Jordan was getting knocked out in the first round, it’s because his Bulls were playing some of the greatest teams ever assembled.

As a rookie, Jordan faced the Bucks who had the third best record across the entire league and had just played in the ECF the prior season against the all-time Celtics. Then back to back losses to those Celtics. Those are the first round losses that I always hear LeBron only defenders rip Jordan for, and even worse, it’s always been such a popular talking point for the talking heads, even though no thought whatsoever has gone into it.

Then they run into the other semi-dynasty Pistons in subsequent rounds and take a game deeper each time against them three years in a row before getting over the hump.

In regards to the point about losing in the opening round, the East was a lot stronger in MJ’s time. LeBron missed the playoffs entirely in his first two seasons—though very close both times-and then yes, he was able to get out of the first round fairly easily since he played the .500ish Wizards the next three years in a row and other fodder like the Pistons and Bulls (39 and 41 wins) before bolting to Miami.

I’m sure someone might respond with an equally lengthy reply telling me why I’m wrong, but I’m commenting purely on the first round exit perception and providing some context that those with an agenda never provide.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

People have this idea in their heads that 90's NBA was a level of competition above and beyond anything else ever seen.

Meanwhile, look at some of the softballs Jordan played in the Finals. Way past their prime Lakers, the Trail Blazers, the Suns, the Sonics; not exactly dynasties.

And on the flip side Lebron made 10 Finals in large part because he played in an absolutely horrible Eastern Conference.

Meanwhile, Jordan may have had easier Finals opponents, but he had to get through much better teams to reach the Finals. The Bad Boy Pistons, Reggie Miller Pacers, Ewing/Riley Knicks. You can easily argue he snuffed out 3 potential 90s dynasties in the Pacers, Knicks and Jazz.

 

[kerrabria]

Lebron gets shade for making the finals , never understood that , you'd think Micheal played 6 seasons in the NBA.

Only NBA fans can make making the finals a bad thing lol.

I have MJ over Lebron but I need somebody to explain why Lebron gets chirped for making the finals instead of losing in the first round like Mike did

People have this idea in their heads that 90's NBA was a level of competition above and beyond anything else ever seen.

Meanwhile, look at some of the softballs Jordan played in the Finals. Way past their prime Lakers, the Trail Blazers, the Suns, the Sonics; not exactly dynasties.

Lebron also scarred himself by forming the Miami super team and being obnoxious about how much of a cheat code it was. Even though Big 3s had been a thing, a team like that had never been put together before, and Lebron was the one who set expectations absurdly high.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Lebron also scarred himself by forming the Miami super team and being obnoxious about how much of a cheat code it was. Even though Big 3s had been a thing, a team like that had never been put together before, and Lebron was the one who set expectations absurdly high.

I think Lebrons most impressive work was done in Cleveland but I agree that the miami debacle did not help him.

 

[Machinehead]

And on the flip side Lebron made 10 Finals in large part because he played in an absolutely horrible Eastern Conference.

Meanwhile, Jordan may have had easier Finals opponents, but he had to get through much better teams to reach the Finals. The Bad Boy Pistons, Reggie Miller Pacers, Ewing/Riley Knicks. You can easily argue he snuffed out 3 potential 90s dynasties in the Pacers, Knicks and Jazz.

Right, the East was tough, but when Jordan was at his peak, the West was bad. That last series is the toughest. He had to go through more tough series in the East, but also, nobody even close to Warriors existed except for the team Jordan was on. He's not 6-0 against those Warriors teams.

Lebron also scarred himself by forming the Miami super team and being obnoxious about how much of a cheat code it was. Even though Big 3s had been a thing, a team like that had never been put together before, and Lebron was the one who set expectations absurdly high.

Yes he was very guilty of all of that, but that says nothing about how people romanticize Jordan's era. Not to mention Jordan was also on a super team. It wasn't built through free agency shenanigans but that's not really relevant if the topic is level of competition.

Personally, I think they're so different that the whole comparison is a bit fruitless. If I had to pick, I take Jordan, but the arguments against LeBron are silly. Jordan was a much better scorer. I think we can say that pretty objectively and I respect that take more than "LeBron played in a weak NBA" because he certainly did not.

 

[blundluntman]

Not even close. Ronaldo vs Messi, Brady vs Peyton, Kobe vs Lebron, Lebron vs Curry are all comfortably ahead.

 

[blundluntman]

That's like saying Ovechkin is better than Crosby because of 9-2 Richards. There's a lot more to the game than just scoring. Lebron is among the most versatile, complete basketball players ever and has Gordie Howe tier longevity.

If Lebron is Gordie Howe, Jordan is Bobby Orr/Sergei Fedorov (on Soldier Serum). Jordan has 9 scoring titles and 9 1st All Defensive Team selections. He won the scoring title and defensive player of the year in the same season after leading in scoring by almost 10 whole points (37 PPG) the season prior. Basically imagine McDavid following up his 2022-23 season with a 140 point selke winner. Then fill out the rest of his career with a Bobby Orr level prime and a few 2/3rd all star team worthy seasons at the tail end of his career.

Jordan was better at both ends of the court (albeit Lebron is no slouch defensively and can play/guard almost every position). Lebron was more well rounded, but Jordan was sharper. Lebron's longevity is the only reason it's really even a 1a/1b discussion, otherwise Jordan would clearly be 1 and Lebron at 2.

 

[dgibb10]

Lebron gets shade for making the finals , never understood that , you'd think Micheal played 6 seasons in the NBA.

Only NBA fans can make making the finals a bad thing lol.

I have MJ over Lebron but I need somebody to explain why Lebron gets chirped for making the finals instead of losing in the first round like Mike did

I think the point would be you could never say MJ came up small in a playoff series his team lost, outside of MAYBE the 94-95 series vs the Magic

With Lebron you can point to:

07 finals
08 ECF
11 finals
21 vs Suns

 

[Regal]

I think the point would be you could never say MJ came up small in a playoff series his team lost, outside of MAYBE the 94-95 series vs the Magic

With Lebron you can point to:

07 finals
08 ECF
11 finals
21 vs Suns

I think only the 2011 finals should really be a knock against him. The Cavs had no business getting as far as they did in ‘07 and ‘08 and they were playing great teams in the semi-dynasty Spurs and the 66 win Garnet-Pierce-Allen Celts that went on to beat a Lakers team that won the next two titles. Both teams were great defensively. In ‘21 he was 36 and had been battling injuries. Jordan was already in his second retirement at the same age.

 

[dgibb10]

I think only the 2011 finals should really be a knock against him. The Cavs had no business getting as far as they did in ‘07 and ‘08 and they were playing great teams in the semi-dynasty Spurs and the 66 win Garnet-Pierce-Allen Celts that went on to beat a Lakers team that won the next two titles. Both teams were great defensively. In ‘21 he was 36 and had been battling injuries. Jordan was already in his second retirement at the same age.

2-18 in a 4 point loss is atrocious in the 08 ECF and I do not know how it goes unacknowledged by so many.

32% shooting through the first 6 games of that series.


35% shooting vs the spurs with a boatload of turnovers

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I've seen Messier pretty consistently 10th to 15th, which is where Kobe should be.

Both players won a fistful of rings, but with the majority of them on teams where they were firmly the second-best player.

I think Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid have bumped Messier down to about 16-20 now.

 

[Machinehead]

I think Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid have bumped Messier down to about 16-20 now.

You're probably right, but you could say the same for Jokic and Curry, possibly KD.

 

[Rorschach]

The difference between Jordan and Lebron is a HOF player.

This is the gap, not even counting championships:

1x MVP
2x Finals MVP
9x Scoring Champ
6x 1st team all Defense
1x Defensive Player of the Year

Playing at a high level for longer doesn't make you the better player if your accolades are that short. Unless you think Bourque and Lidstrom are better than Orr because they were elite for longer.

I like that you also list the defensive awards

 

[Rorschach]

Magic Johnson vs. Larry Bird is the greatest rivalry. Two dynasties clashing against each other and they were even rivals in college.

 

[NyQuil]

It’s a pretty strong rivalry because it started before they were even in the NHL when both guys were Junior players vying for the title of the next great generational player.

Reminds me a bit of Johnson and Bird tangling at the college level before the NBA.

 

[Voight]

Lebron gets shade for making the finals , never understood that , you'd think Micheal played 6 seasons in the NBA.

Only NBA fans can make making the finals a bad thing lol.

I have MJ over Lebron but I need somebody to explain why Lebron gets chirped for making the finals instead of losing in the first round like Mike did

It has more to do with years like 2011 when he averaged a paltry 17 PPG in the finals, when he was smack dab in the middle of his prime/almost at his peak.

& going 6-0 in the finals is better than going 4-6 no matter how you slice it.

Jordan lost in the first round sure but the coke infested Bulls teams he was on had no business making the playoffs. It's not like he played bad those years anyhow, he literally put the team on his back.

 

[Voight]

People have this idea in their heads that 90's NBA was a level of competition above and beyond anything else ever seen.

Meanwhile, look at some of the softballs Jordan played in the Finals. Way past their prime Lakers, the Trail Blazers, the Suns, the Sonics; not exactly dynasties.

I'll give you the past their prime Lakers but the other teams weren't exactly the 2021 Habs.

The 1992 Trail Blazers may have lacked star power outside of Drexler (who was 2nd in MVP voting that year FWIW) but they were 11-4 before running into the Bulls.

The 1993 Suns not only had the leagues MVP that year but they won 60 games. They were a pretty deep squad as well, and Kevin Johnson often gets underrated.

1996 Sonics are underrated at times. Payton was DPOY, he and Kemp were both 2nd team all NBA that year (and top 10 in MVP voting). Schrempf and Hawkins were solid players as well.

 

[Voight]

Lebron has

1) 11X MVP finalist (top 3) vs 10X for MJ - Lebron 1 more

2) 14X top 5 MVP vs 10X for MJ - Lebron 4 more

3) 19 X top 10 MVP vs 11X for Lebron - 8 more

That can be argued to be a Hall of fame career level gap between the two

Add All NBA teams + All star appearances and can easily see why some people would prefer lebrons career over MJ

If MJ had played those 5 additional years (94-95, 99-01) than he would not be catachable for LBJ. That is likely 1 MVP, 2 top 3s, and 2 top 5-10 place finishes

LeBron has played 7 more seasons than Jordan did and also entered the league at an earlier age, he should have more MVP finishes. Jordan accomplished more in less time, it's very simple.

 

[Machinehead]

I'll give you the past their prime Lakers but the other teams weren't exactly the 2021 Habs.

The 1992 Trail Blazers may have lacked star power outside of Drexler (who was 2nd in MVP voting that year FWIW) but they were 11-4 before running into the Bulls.

The 1993 Suns not only had the leagues MVP that year but they won 60 games. They were a pretty deep squad as well, and Kevin Johnson often gets underrated.

1996 Sonics are underrated at times. Payton was DPOY, he and Kemp were both 2nd team all NBA that year (and top 10 in MVP voting). Schrempf and Hawkins were solid players as well.

Nobody is saying they're bad teams but which one of these is the Warriors?

 

[Video Nasty]

Nobody is saying they're bad teams but which one of these is the Warriors?

You're twisting history a bit though. LeBron earned that reputation before he ever had to deal with the Warriors.

He had 12 seasons in the books and owned a 2-3 Finals record before facing the Warriors four years in a row.

And I'm not sure I understand calling out Jordan's Finals opponents when two of LeBron's four wins came against 2014 Oklahoma City and 2020 Miami, and he lost against 2011 Dallas.