Is Crosby/Ovechkin the best player rivalry in big 4 sports leagues in the 21st century?

Is Crosby/Ovechkin the best (team sport) player rivalry of the 21st century?

  • Yes (I only watch the NHL)

    Votes: 15 16.7%
  • Yes (I watch other sports)

    Votes: 22 24.4%
  • No

    Votes: 53 58.9%

  • Total voters
    90
  • This poll will close: .

The Gr8 Dane

L'harceleur
Jan 19, 2018
13,657
27,129
Montréal
The only thing I'll say about LBJ vs MJ is this:
Jordan is the greatest wing of all time. Lebron (who himself would be classified as a wing) is the greatest all-around basketball player of all time.

If the only way you measure greatness is through number of trophies per season, then you should also put Kareem above Lebron, which nobody does.
Lebron gets shade for making the finals , never understood that , you'd think Micheal played 6 seasons in the NBA.

Only NBA fans can make making the finals a bad thing lol.

I have MJ over Lebron but I need somebody to explain why Lebron gets chirped for making the finals instead of losing in the first round like Mike did
 
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Machinehead

HFNYR MVP
Jan 21, 2011
148,082
126,931
NYC
Lebron gets shade for making the finals , never understood that , you'd think Micheal played 6 seasons in the NBA.

Only NBA fans can make making the finals a bad thing lol.

I have MJ over Lebron but I need somebody to explain why Lebron gets chirped for making the finals instead of losing in the first round like Mike did
People have this idea in their heads that 90's NBA was a level of competition above and beyond anything else ever seen.

Meanwhile, look at some of the softballs Jordan played in the Finals. Way past their prime Lakers, the Trail Blazers, the Suns, the Sonics; not exactly dynasties.
 
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Video Nasty

Registered User
Mar 12, 2017
5,713
9,945
Lebron gets shade for making the finals , never understood that , you'd think Micheal played 6 seasons in the NBA.

Only NBA fans can make making the finals a bad thing lol.

I have MJ over Lebron but I need somebody to explain why Lebron gets chirped for making the finals instead of losing in the first round like Mike did

I’m a Jordan guy here too, but I’ll do my best to comment with my perception of it all.

There’s a lot that goes into it. The shade that LeBron got for making the Finals and losing is almost entirely concentrated in his first two appearances and the build up before that first championship win. He came up extremely small in that first year in Miami and this was after he had a tantrum the two prior postseasons when he walked off the court against the Celtics and Magic after they deep sixed him and the Cavs. I’m not going to comment on The Decision, other than all of it made him extremely easy to root against, which some simply never got over.

I think over time, most neutral fans can recognize that seeing a player take part in eight consecutive Finals in the modern day carries its own mystique, regardless of results. I think most also understand that most players are likely going to lose three out of four to the Warriors dynasty.

But if we can be fair and neutral in that, we can also acknowledge that when Jordan was getting knocked out in the first round, it’s because his Bulls were playing some of the greatest teams ever assembled.

As a rookie, Jordan faced the Bucks who had the third best record across the entire league and had just played in the ECF the prior season against the all-time Celtics. Then back to back losses to those Celtics. Those are the first round losses that I always hear LeBron only defenders rip Jordan for, and even worse, it’s always been such a popular talking point for the talking heads, even though no thought whatsoever has gone into it.

Then they run into the other semi-dynasty Pistons in subsequent rounds and take a game deeper each time against them three years in a row before getting over the hump.

In regards to the point about losing in the opening round, the East was a lot stronger in MJ’s time. LeBron missed the playoffs entirely in his first two seasons—though very close both times-and then yes, he was able to get out of the first round fairly easily since he played the .500ish Wizards the next three years in a row and other fodder like the Pistons and Bulls (39 and 41 wins) before bolting to Miami.

I’m sure someone might respond with an equally lengthy reply telling me why I’m wrong, but I’m commenting purely on the first round exit perception and providing some context that those with an agenda never provide.
 
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BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
14,587
20,008
Las Vegas
People have this idea in their heads that 90's NBA was a level of competition above and beyond anything else ever seen.

Meanwhile, look at some of the softballs Jordan played in the Finals. Way past their prime Lakers, the Trail Blazers, the Suns, the Sonics; not exactly dynasties.

And on the flip side Lebron made 10 Finals in large part because he played in an absolutely horrible Eastern Conference.

Meanwhile, Jordan may have had easier Finals opponents, but he had to get through much better teams to reach the Finals. The Bad Boy Pistons, Reggie Miller Pacers, Ewing/Riley Knicks. You can easily argue he snuffed out 3 potential 90s dynasties in the Pacers, Knicks and Jazz.
 

kerrabria

Registered User
May 3, 2018
3,978
4,944
Lebron gets shade for making the finals , never understood that , you'd think Micheal played 6 seasons in the NBA.

Only NBA fans can make making the finals a bad thing lol.

I have MJ over Lebron but I need somebody to explain why Lebron gets chirped for making the finals instead of losing in the first round like Mike did
People have this idea in their heads that 90's NBA was a level of competition above and beyond anything else ever seen.

Meanwhile, look at some of the softballs Jordan played in the Finals. Way past their prime Lakers, the Trail Blazers, the Suns, the Sonics; not exactly dynasties.
Lebron also scarred himself by forming the Miami super team and being obnoxious about how much of a cheat code it was. Even though Big 3s had been a thing, a team like that had never been put together before, and Lebron was the one who set expectations absurdly high.
 
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The Gr8 Dane

L'harceleur
Jan 19, 2018
13,657
27,129
Montréal
Lebron also scarred himself by forming the Miami super team and being obnoxious about how much of a cheat code it was. Even though Big 3s had been a thing, a team like that had never been put together before, and Lebron was the one who set expectations absurdly high.
I think Lebrons most impressive work was done in Cleveland but I agree that the miami debacle did not help him.
 

Machinehead

HFNYR MVP
Jan 21, 2011
148,082
126,931
NYC
And on the flip side Lebron made 10 Finals in large part because he played in an absolutely horrible Eastern Conference.

Meanwhile, Jordan may have had easier Finals opponents, but he had to get through much better teams to reach the Finals. The Bad Boy Pistons, Reggie Miller Pacers, Ewing/Riley Knicks. You can easily argue he snuffed out 3 potential 90s dynasties in the Pacers, Knicks and Jazz.
Right, the East was tough, but when Jordan was at his peak, the West was bad. That last series is the toughest. He had to go through more tough series in the East, but also, nobody even close to Warriors existed except for the team Jordan was on. He's not 6-0 against those Warriors teams.
Lebron also scarred himself by forming the Miami super team and being obnoxious about how much of a cheat code it was. Even though Big 3s had been a thing, a team like that had never been put together before, and Lebron was the one who set expectations absurdly high.
Yes he was very guilty of all of that, but that says nothing about how people romanticize Jordan's era. Not to mention Jordan was also on a super team. It wasn't built through free agency shenanigans but that's not really relevant if the topic is level of competition.

Personally, I think they're so different that the whole comparison is a bit fruitless. If I had to pick, I take Jordan, but the arguments against LeBron are silly. Jordan was a much better scorer. I think we can say that pretty objectively and I respect that take more than "LeBron played in a weak NBA" because he certainly did not.
 

blundluntman

Registered User
Jul 30, 2016
3,164
3,444
That's like saying Ovechkin is better than Crosby because of 9-2 Richards. There's a lot more to the game than just scoring. Lebron is among the most versatile, complete basketball players ever and has Gordie Howe tier longevity.
If Lebron is Gordie Howe, Jordan is Bobby Orr/Sergei Fedorov (on Soldier Serum). Jordan has 9 scoring titles and 9 1st All Defensive Team selections. He won the scoring title and defensive player of the year in the same season after leading in scoring by almost 10 whole points (37 PPG) the season prior. Basically imagine McDavid following up his 2022-23 season with a 140 point selke winner. Then fill out the rest of his career with a Bobby Orr level prime and a few 2/3rd all star team worthy seasons at the tail end of his career.

Jordan was better at both ends of the court (albeit Lebron is no slouch defensively and can play/guard almost every position). Lebron was more well rounded, but Jordan was sharper. Lebron's longevity is the only reason it's really even a 1a/1b discussion, otherwise Jordan would clearly be 1 and Lebron at 2.
 
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dgibb10

Registered User
Feb 29, 2024
3,578
3,113
Lebron gets shade for making the finals , never understood that , you'd think Micheal played 6 seasons in the NBA.

Only NBA fans can make making the finals a bad thing lol.

I have MJ over Lebron but I need somebody to explain why Lebron gets chirped for making the finals instead of losing in the first round like Mike did
I think the point would be you could never say MJ came up small in a playoff series his team lost, outside of MAYBE the 94-95 series vs the Magic

With Lebron you can point to:

07 finals
08 ECF
11 finals
21 vs Suns
 

Regal

Registered User
Mar 12, 2010
26,565
16,473
Vancouver
I think the point would be you could never say MJ came up small in a playoff series his team lost, outside of MAYBE the 94-95 series vs the Magic

With Lebron you can point to:

07 finals
08 ECF
11 finals
21 vs Suns

I think only the 2011 finals should really be a knock against him. The Cavs had no business getting as far as they did in ‘07 and ‘08 and they were playing great teams in the semi-dynasty Spurs and the 66 win Garnet-Pierce-Allen Celts that went on to beat a Lakers team that won the next two titles. Both teams were great defensively. In ‘21 he was 36 and had been battling injuries. Jordan was already in his second retirement at the same age.
 

dgibb10

Registered User
Feb 29, 2024
3,578
3,113
I think only the 2011 finals should really be a knock against him. The Cavs had no business getting as far as they did in ‘07 and ‘08 and they were playing great teams in the semi-dynasty Spurs and the 66 win Garnet-Pierce-Allen Celts that went on to beat a Lakers team that won the next two titles. Both teams were great defensively. In ‘21 he was 36 and had been battling injuries. Jordan was already in his second retirement at the same age.
2-18 in a 4 point loss is atrocious in the 08 ECF and I do not know how it goes unacknowledged by so many.

32% shooting through the first 6 games of that series.


35% shooting vs the spurs with a boatload of turnovers
 

Luigi Lemieux

Registered User
Sep 26, 2003
22,185
10,781
I've seen Messier pretty consistently 10th to 15th, which is where Kobe should be.

Both players won a fistful of rings, but with the majority of them on teams where they were firmly the second-best player.
I think Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid have bumped Messier down to about 16-20 now.
 

Rorschach

Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
Oct 9, 2006
11,575
2,122
Los Angeles
The difference between Jordan and Lebron is a HOF player.

This is the gap, not even counting championships:

1x MVP
2x Finals MVP
9x Scoring Champ
6x 1st team all Defense
1x Defensive Player of the Year

Playing at a high level for longer doesn't make you the better player if your accolades are that short. Unless you think Bourque and Lidstrom are better than Orr because they were elite for longer.
I like that you also list the defensive awards
 

Rorschach

Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
Oct 9, 2006
11,575
2,122
Los Angeles
Magic Johnson vs. Larry Bird is the greatest rivalry. Two dynasties clashing against each other and they were even rivals in college.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
99,168
65,486
Ottawa, ON
It’s a pretty strong rivalry because it started before they were even in the NHL when both guys were Junior players vying for the title of the next great generational player.

Reminds me a bit of Johnson and Bird tangling at the college level before the NBA.
 

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