You are the one who brought it up at the top of this page in reference to a post from me so perhaps you should relax a bit and skip the false victim stance you are taking here.
19 is still much greater than 9 right?
Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?
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GreatGonzo
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Shoulda, coulda, woulda….thats all that means. It’s all “if…if…IF.” Would it have been? COULD it have been? Sure…was it? NO. Can we sit here and pretend like what you feel he “should have done” basically means it’s just as good as what McDavid actually accomplished? No. Why? Because it’s nonsense.
McDavid actually did it. He actually achieved it. He actually sustained the paces he set. Crosby is nothing but “what if.” You love giving him credit for something he didn’t do….all because for you, a “what if” is just as good as actually doing it.
Your point is Justin Williams? Why
Yes, I was poking fun at him. Wasn’t that obvious?
He was so dramatic and upset about it, it was quite a sight.that’s if you are implying that all 19 of his years were when he was near the top. That hasn’t been the case in the past 5 years. Plus we have another 3 years where, yes IF he was healthy, it would have been a different story…but he wasn’t. I
Crosby ppg streak is only due to playing his later years in a higher scoring era
norrisnick
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But Crosby was injured. McDavid has also missed out on accolades due to injury. No one is tripping over themselves to give Connor credit for things he hasn't done. Even though reasonably, a healthy McDavid also has 2 more Art Ross trophies and 2 more Harts. Playing the imaginary game doesn't get you anywhere.
The crux of my resistance here... is that we are supposed to take a three season stretch of games, where Crosby played only 99 games and was 37th in league-wide scoring, and just imagine he's the runaway #1. Because if we can imagine 2 Harts and 2 Art Rosses then the resumes are closer. And that three season stretch of games is the lynch pin for the comparison, even though before and after Crosby never approached that pace. He was great, but not as great as those short bursts of games. It's several significant leaps of faith stacked on top of each other, just to get close to what McDavid actually did, nevermind what McDavid could have done if we allow leaps of faith for him too. It's Wayne and Mario all over again, and just as tiresome.
GreatGonzo
Registered User
Good point. Many love to use McDavids higher scoring era as a line of reasoning why he’s been dominant. But no one is talking about how crosbys 19 consecutive PPG seasons should have an asterisk next to it.
Video Nasty
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Take away the 25 game heater where he scored 50 points (a career anomaly) after an ordinary start to 2010-2011 with 15 points in 13 games, and Crosby scored 109 points in 74 games during the 3 seasons of 99 out of a possible 212 games.
Terrific numbers, but a far more realistic “pace” of 121 points/82 games.
He’s been given the benefit of the doubt, despite never earning it. Crazy.
That would require self-awareness, which they lack. It’s never crossed their minds that when they’re making that argument, that the reverse might be true. But hey, it’s Crosby. He gets it all handed to him and he is immune to era. No one before or after him can be better, and he of course would have done it all a hundred times better than he ever displayed inside his own era.
Gurglesons
Registered User
I think it has more to do with Crosby being one of the best players at adaptability in his game and life style.
Higher scoring era
93 points era adjusted to 15% less would be 81 in 82 games
A few other seasons since 15-16 would be less than ppg, era adjusted
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Gurglesons
Registered User
How else do you apply these era adjusted points?
Do you use them to prop up Crosby's career point totals?
Do you view Draisaitl, Kucherov, and MacKinnon's point totals as more impressive than Sid's in a single season?
GreatGonzo
Registered User
What Crosby lacked in peak, he made up for with overall consistency. It’s not always easy to hear but in terms of peak, Crosby didn’t really have one. It’s unfortunate but that’s how it is. Many can’t handle that and choose to play make believe with his stats and awards with what “could have been.”
Gurglesons
Registered User
Keep making absurd responses to my posts that I'll continue to ignore if you'd like. I'm not discussing this topic further with you. You're an obvious troll and have a bit. Good luck.
Um how exactly does he get 2 more Art Rosses? He's led the league in points per game 5 times and won the Art Ross 5 times.
Lol, I imagine most players stats are going to go down when you remove their best games. Score one for the intellectually dishonesty column.
GreatGonzo
Registered User
Maybe not 2, but he certainly would have had a shot at the scoring title and Hart this past season if he wasn’t injured early on.
Fourier
Registered User
I'll fill in the rest of the numbers when I get a chance but over the period I chose Malkin played 377 or roughly 20% of the time Crosby was on the ice 5 vs 5. That's not a huge amount but it is not a rare event either.
The post I quoted did mention wingers but the general premise I was addressing was the quality of the teammates both played with. In this respect defensemen matter, sometimes a lot. Top offensive defenseman can easily have a major impact on a teams scoring rate while they are on the ice and as such on how many points a player gets while playing with them. For example, in 753 minutes with Letang, Crosby scored at a rate of 4.54 pts/60 5 vs 5 and 4.92 pts/60 with Goligoski in 524 minutes vs 2.47pts/60 with Mark Eaton in 412 minutes and 2.69 pts/60 in 245 minutes with Engelland.
Wingers matter but not necessarily more than defensemen. If you are Nathan MacKinnon for example, if you had to choose would you want to be on the ice with Makar but not Rantanen or with Rantanen but not Makar?
McDavid played much of his career without an offensive defenseman of note. The best he had until recently was an aging Tyson Barrie, who while still effective on the pp was not really a great match for McDavid 5 vs 5. Bouchard is really the first high end defender he has played with that augments his game. Over the last three years McDavid's scoring rate with Bouchard on the ice is 3.38 pts/60 with Barrie it was 2.69. The last year it was 3.68 with Bouchard.
The other aspect of this..."would have had more points with better wingers"...theory is that it simply does not always work that way. One reason is IPP, individual point percentage. The more good players on the ice generally the more goals the team scores but the more players who might also share in the scoring. With Leon, McDavid's Pts/60 rate was 3.08 over the last three years compared with 3.32 with Nuge. Yet the team scored 4.25 G/60 with McDavid and Draisaitl together compared to 3.92 G/60 with McDavid and Nuge together. Playing with Leon 5 vs 5 McDavid gets a point on 72.5% of the goals the Oilers score, while with Nuge it is 84.7%. This is easy to explain as well. When Draisaitl is on with McDavid he shares the puck. When Nuge plays with McDavid he is more passive, focusing on defense more than offense.
The bottom line is that 5 vs 5 the Oilers play Leon and McDavid together not to pad McDavid's stats but because the two combine to help the team score more when they really need it.
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Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Wait, you're not new here, you have 23k+ posts and you really took what I wrote literally? Of course, it was to purposedly show how obsolete this "cup winning argument" is.
I must admit, I was a bit perplexed by that kind of answer coming from that poster. Usually, it would come from incredibly biased people.
WalterLundy
Registered User
I voted McDavid is a tier above. Obviously for career rankings I’d probably have Crosby ahead as of 2024 but I can see ranking McDavid clearly ahead in just a few more years with little pushback if any. I understand even ranking him ahead even now too. The only reason for this is 19 years to 9 but McDavid also has more total hardware than Crosby does in less than half the time.
My reasoning for that vote is due to McDavid having higher single season career highs in every stat both regular and adjusted. Those include: goals, assists, points, plus minus, points per game. That list also holds true for the postseason as well regular and adjusted other than goals but due to less games. Most of the gaps are considerable as well. I may also post a list of these single career highs in a different post for all to see but this post will be long as is so I’ll hold off for that reason. It comes down to having far better regular seasons and playoff single seasons than Crosby has. McDavid also has dominated his peers in his best seasons (2021 and 2023) at a level only the big 4 has reached. Especially for non teammates. Crosby never did anything like that nor was he when his season stopped in 2011. McDavid this past postseason also had the highest adjusted points total in playoff history with the largest margin between a player and a non teammate at 20 points (Gretzky did 18 twice).
You can use adjusted stats from HockeyReference and the results will be similar but accounting for Even strength, powerplay and shorthanded rates give better results so those adjusted stats are the ones most should use.
NHL Historical league averages:
ESG: 2.24, PPG: 0.72, SHG: 0.10
Here are first 9 seasons for each:
Connor McDavid
15-16: 45 GP: 19 G, 37 A, 56 P (1.24)
16-17: 82 GP: 33 G, 80 A, 113 P (1.38)
17-18: 82 GP: 42 G, 71 A, 113 P (1.38)
18-19: 78 GP: 42 G, 80 A, 122 P (1.56)
19-20: 64 GP: 36 G, 68 A, 104 P (1.63)
20-21: 56 GP: 35 G, 79 A, 114 P (2.04)
21-22: 80 GP: 43 G, 83 A, 126 P (1.58)
22-23: 82 GP: 64 G, 92 A, 156 P (1.90)
23-24: 76 GP: 32 G, 102 A, 134 P (1.76)
Total: 645 GP: 346 G, 692 A, 1038 P (1.61)
Sidney Crosby:
05-06: 81 GP: 39 G, 60 A, 99 P (1.22)
06-07: 79 GP: 38 G, 83 A, 121 P (1.53)
07-08: 53 GP: 28 G, 52 A, 80 P (1.51)
08-09: 77 GP: 36 G, 72 A, 108 P (1.40)
09-10: 81 GP: 57 G, 63 A, 120 P (1.48)
10-11: 41 GP: 36 G, 38 A, 74 P (1.80)
11-12: 22 GP: 10 G, 33 A, 43 P (1.95)
12-13: 36 GP: 18 G, 47 A, 65 P (1.81)
13-14: 80 GP: 41 G, 79 A, 120 P (1.50)
Total: 550 GP: 303 G, 527 A, 830 P (1.51)
This comparison is actually the closest it will be for Crosby. Crosby’s first 9 years are definitely all time great but after 2014 his numbers (while remaining consistently good) fall from his statistical prime. This is where things peak for Crosby so to speak and McDavid has still already topped it. Assuming McDavid produces at his average level there will be a very wide gap in a few years time when adjusted. There is a clear gap now through 9 years as is. You can take 2011, 12 and 13 together as one big 99 game “season” sample for peak play and you get 182 in 99 (1.84) when adjusted. The issue is McDavid has 2021 and 2023 that are better with 2024 being close as well with injuries.
One other minor point is even strength play. Even strength goals per game from 2006-2014 averaged at 1.96 and 2.27 from 2016-2024.
Their raw totals for ESP for first 9:
SC: 467 in 550 (0.85)
CM: 632 in 645 (0.98)
When adjusted to 2016-2024 level:
CM: 632 in 645 (0.98)
SC: 541 in 550 (0.98)
For their best seasons you have the three year Crosby stretch of 2011-2013 when he put up 111 in 99 ESP. When adjusted to the 2.24 historical average that becomes 124 in 99 (1.25). Crosby was remarkable at even strength in his peak spurts but many forget that McDavid has been as well.
In 2021 he had 68 in 56 regular (and it stays that way when adjusted) for 1.21. He also had a stretch last season that was better than anything Crosby did at even strength to add to what he did in 2020-21. From when he returned to form from injury in November 24th 2023 to when he briefly took the lead in the Ross race on March 30th 2024 against Anaheim he had 74 ESP in 54 games. When adjusted that is 70 in 54 (1.30). Combining that and 2021 adjusted gives you a total of 138 in 110 GP (1.25). The same as Crosby at even strength for peak when adjusted but in more games. If anything McDavid is better at peak for ESP but at worst it’s a wash even when you crunch the numbers to make it fair to Crosby.
Long winded post I know but I think for me it comes down to just a few things. I have seen Crosby’s entire career as a regular attendee of pens games for decades and McDavid when I’ve seen him is significantly better. The head to head stats are also glaring and I’ve been in attendance for a lot of them. I have to rate McDavid a tier ahead because he wins in every category regular and adjusted, has more total awards already and is visually the best player I’ve seen from a sport advancement standpoint and the third best player I’ve ever seen live behind only Gretzky and then Lemieux. I have to put him in another tier because of these reasons but with that said Crosby is 5th or 6th all time as of right now and the next best player of the last 20 years easily.
My reasoning for that vote is due to McDavid having higher single season career highs in every stat both regular and adjusted. Those include: goals, assists, points, plus minus, points per game. That list also holds true for the postseason as well regular and adjusted other than goals but due to less games. Most of the gaps are considerable as well. I may also post a list of these single career highs in a different post for all to see but this post will be long as is so I’ll hold off for that reason. It comes down to having far better regular seasons and playoff single seasons than Crosby has. McDavid also has dominated his peers in his best seasons (2021 and 2023) at a level only the big 4 has reached. Especially for non teammates. Crosby never did anything like that nor was he when his season stopped in 2011. McDavid this past postseason also had the highest adjusted points total in playoff history with the largest margin between a player and a non teammate at 20 points (Gretzky did 18 twice).
You can use adjusted stats from HockeyReference and the results will be similar but accounting for Even strength, powerplay and shorthanded rates give better results so those adjusted stats are the ones most should use.
NHL Historical league averages:
ESG: 2.24, PPG: 0.72, SHG: 0.10
Here are first 9 seasons for each:
Connor McDavid
15-16: 45 GP: 19 G, 37 A, 56 P (1.24)
16-17: 82 GP: 33 G, 80 A, 113 P (1.38)
17-18: 82 GP: 42 G, 71 A, 113 P (1.38)
18-19: 78 GP: 42 G, 80 A, 122 P (1.56)
19-20: 64 GP: 36 G, 68 A, 104 P (1.63)
20-21: 56 GP: 35 G, 79 A, 114 P (2.04)
21-22: 80 GP: 43 G, 83 A, 126 P (1.58)
22-23: 82 GP: 64 G, 92 A, 156 P (1.90)
23-24: 76 GP: 32 G, 102 A, 134 P (1.76)
Total: 645 GP: 346 G, 692 A, 1038 P (1.61)
Sidney Crosby:
05-06: 81 GP: 39 G, 60 A, 99 P (1.22)
06-07: 79 GP: 38 G, 83 A, 121 P (1.53)
07-08: 53 GP: 28 G, 52 A, 80 P (1.51)
08-09: 77 GP: 36 G, 72 A, 108 P (1.40)
09-10: 81 GP: 57 G, 63 A, 120 P (1.48)
10-11: 41 GP: 36 G, 38 A, 74 P (1.80)
11-12: 22 GP: 10 G, 33 A, 43 P (1.95)
12-13: 36 GP: 18 G, 47 A, 65 P (1.81)
13-14: 80 GP: 41 G, 79 A, 120 P (1.50)
Total: 550 GP: 303 G, 527 A, 830 P (1.51)
This comparison is actually the closest it will be for Crosby. Crosby’s first 9 years are definitely all time great but after 2014 his numbers (while remaining consistently good) fall from his statistical prime. This is where things peak for Crosby so to speak and McDavid has still already topped it. Assuming McDavid produces at his average level there will be a very wide gap in a few years time when adjusted. There is a clear gap now through 9 years as is. You can take 2011, 12 and 13 together as one big 99 game “season” sample for peak play and you get 182 in 99 (1.84) when adjusted. The issue is McDavid has 2021 and 2023 that are better with 2024 being close as well with injuries.
One other minor point is even strength play. Even strength goals per game from 2006-2014 averaged at 1.96 and 2.27 from 2016-2024.
Their raw totals for ESP for first 9:
SC: 467 in 550 (0.85)
CM: 632 in 645 (0.98)
When adjusted to 2016-2024 level:
CM: 632 in 645 (0.98)
SC: 541 in 550 (0.98)
For their best seasons you have the three year Crosby stretch of 2011-2013 when he put up 111 in 99 ESP. When adjusted to the 2.24 historical average that becomes 124 in 99 (1.25). Crosby was remarkable at even strength in his peak spurts but many forget that McDavid has been as well.
In 2021 he had 68 in 56 regular (and it stays that way when adjusted) for 1.21. He also had a stretch last season that was better than anything Crosby did at even strength to add to what he did in 2020-21. From when he returned to form from injury in November 24th 2023 to when he briefly took the lead in the Ross race on March 30th 2024 against Anaheim he had 74 ESP in 54 games. When adjusted that is 70 in 54 (1.30). Combining that and 2021 adjusted gives you a total of 138 in 110 GP (1.25). The same as Crosby at even strength for peak when adjusted but in more games. If anything McDavid is better at peak for ESP but at worst it’s a wash even when you crunch the numbers to make it fair to Crosby.
Long winded post I know but I think for me it comes down to just a few things. I have seen Crosby’s entire career as a regular attendee of pens games for decades and McDavid when I’ve seen him is significantly better. The head to head stats are also glaring and I’ve been in attendance for a lot of them. I have to rate McDavid a tier ahead because he wins in every category regular and adjusted, has more total awards already and is visually the best player I’ve seen from a sport advancement standpoint and the third best player I’ve ever seen live behind only Gretzky and then Lemieux. I have to put him in another tier because of these reasons but with that said Crosby is 5th or 6th all time as of right now and the next best player of the last 20 years easily.
- Feb 10, 2010
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What did he say that is incorrect?
Sidney Crosby's absolute best season (2010) isn't even among the top 10 best seasons of his generation. Ovechkin has 3 in the top 10, including #1. Do you think it is unfair to bring that up?
Something tells me if Sid had the best full seasons, you would have no problem with people saying it. But since he doesn't, then it's trolling?
norrisnick
The best...
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So we can imagine hundreds of extra points for one guy but not a couple extra from not playing through an injury. That tracks...
WalterLundy
Registered User
Unrelated to your comments with the other poster but just wanted to actually address the last part of your post as I was intrigued. For a single full season yeah they do have better when adjusted but that comes down to Sid not having a full peak season.
If you adjust to the historical average of ESG: 2.24, PPG: 0.72, SHG: 0.10
You have:
Crosby 06-07:
79 GP: 38 G, 83 A, 121 P (1.53)
Kucherov 23-24:
81 GP: 44 G, 103 A, 147 P (1.81)
Draisaitl:
19-20: 71 GP: 45 G, 72 A, 117 P (1.65)
MacKinnon 23-24:
82 GP: 50 G, 91 A, 141 P (1.72)
Crosby’s best full season for ppg when adjusted is 2007 but his peak as we all know was 2011-2013. If you bundle that peak 99 games it looks like this adjusted
*11-13 Crosby:
99 GP: 64 G, 118 A, 182 P (1.84)
Now that clears the Kucherov, MacKinnon and Draisaitl best seasons but it wasn’t able to be played in full. I will say though that Kucherov essentially just matched this last year as 1.81 to 1.84 is very close. Crosby’s peak would rank third behind 2021 and 2023 McDavid if it was a legit full season. Sadly it can’t count as a peak season. Those when adjusted are:
20-21 McDavid:
56 GP: 35 G, 79 A, 114 P (2.04)
22-23 McDavid:
82 GP: 64 G, 92 A, 156 P (1.90)
You don't have to "adjust" anything, you can compare their relative dominance to the field (Top 10/25/50) and their numbers are very similar.
You can argue that McDavid benefits from a more offensive minded league than Crosby did.
WalterLundy
Registered User
Yeah you actually aren’t wrong although 2012 Malkin and 2010 Ovi are close though I’m assuming you mean 08 Ovechkin is 1st of that generation due to the goals. Crosby’s peak level reached was higher per game but they weren’t full seasons. If you consider 2006-2016 as “his generation” and you look at the best players of the period you have these seasons when adjusted (to 2.24 ESG, 0.72 PPG, 0.10 SHG)
Alex Ovechkin:
09-10: 72 GP: 55 G, 64 A, 119 P (1.65)
07-08: 82 GP: 73 G, 53 A, 126 P (1.54)
08-09: 79 GP: 59 G, 56 A, 115 P (1.46)
Evgeni Malkin:
11-12: 75 GP: 57 G, 69 A, 126 P (1.68)
08-09: 82 GP: 37 G, 83 A, 120 P (1.46)
07-08: 82 GP: 52 G, 65 A, 117 P (1.43)
Sidney Crosby:
06-07: 79 GP: 38 G, 83 A, 121 P (1.53)
13-14: 80 GP: 41 G, 79 A, 120 P (1.50)
09-10: 81 GP: 57 G, 63 A, 120 P (1.48)
Patrick Kane:
15-16: 82 GP: 53 G, 70 A, 123 P (1.50)
Joe Thornton:
05-06: 81 GP: 30 G, 95 A, 125 P (1.54)
Henrik Sedin:
09-10: 82 GP: 33 G, 91 A, 124 P (1.51)
Jaromir Jagr:
05-06: 82 GP: 53 G, 69 A, 122 P (1.49)
People on here care about adjusted stats thats why I post them. Those adjustments factor in your last sentiment and show that while true he’s still better offensively. I get your point as well but there’s a reason why I do what I do.
- Feb 10, 2010
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I mean yeah, but it's also relevant that the 2008 Capitals were not a very good team.
WalterLundy
Registered User
For the record I was agreeing that Ovi’s 08 would probably be the best because 65 goals then (73 adjusted) is insane. It’s just that Malkin and Ovi’s two best per game are close. You are right that there is more to consider beyond that. I think 08 and 10 Ovechkin along with 2012 Malkin are the best full seasons of the period.
Video Nasty
Registered User
- Mar 12, 2017
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Much more honest to pretend that the heater was normal and extrapolate out three seasons worth of stats to make Crosby seem closer to McDavid than he really was.
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