Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[norrisnick]

Actually Crosby finished first 3 times. McDavid hasn't finished first a single time, at least not yet.

Seems like you're counting the wrong thing. Pretty sure Sid values cups more than regular season trophies (as does every single other player in the league, incl McDavid)

Are we in the thread discussing the tiers of the Penguins and Oilers? Seems you might be lost...

Or are you suggesting Maroon = Crosby?

 

[GreatGonzo]

what Im saying is McDavid hasn't done enough yet to deserve to be placed over Crosby.

winning makes a difference. and if McDavid never wins it will affect his overall placement among the all time greats. nothing is given he has to take those spots and so far he hasn't done enough to just overstep Crosby's career which has ALOT more winning than McDavid has so far.

either agree or disagree I really dont care Ive had enough seeing your name. our argument is going in circles. enough is enough been 4 days going on 5.....

McDavid fans remind me of LeBron fans,

Well like you said, that’s your opinion. Whether he’s currently right behind Crosby, on Crosbys “tier” or ahead….hes there regardless if you like it or not.

They do? How so? Last time I checked, Lebron has been widely considered the GOAT since breaking the overall points record. Not that I agree with that..

Well that's kind of the point, McDavid had an all time performance in the playoffs this year, but Crosby has had several of those in this career. If McDavid can repeat what he did this year that will do a lot for his legacy.

He did? Name them…

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

what Im saying is McDavid hasn't done enough yet to deserve to be placed over Crosby.

winning makes a difference. and if McDavid never wins it will affect his overall placement among the all time greats. nothing is given he has to take those spots and so far he hasn't done enough to just overstep Crosby's career which has ALOT more winning than McDavid has so far.

either agree or disagree I really dont care Ive had enough seeing your name. our argument is going in circles. enough is enough been 4 days going on 5.....

McDavid fans remind me of LeBron fans,

So Hyman scores a hat trick in game 7 and wins the stanley cup ,McDavid has 0 points, this means McDavid magically becomes a better hockey player than he was in game 6 , do you agree with this statement?



Are we even still comparing who the better hockey player is or just who won more cups. Because who the better hockey player compared to his peers historically is already McDavid.



28 years old and he's already surpassed him....

 

[Video Nasty]

Okay let's break down some of this BS here shall we starting on 08-09

finished 3rd in scoring with 103 points in 77 games, Malkin was first with 113 points in 82 games.

Top 3 PPG breaks down like this

1.39 (Ovi)
1.38 (Malkin)
1.34 (Crosby)


Huge stain there, surprised the Pens even kept him for the next season.

09-10 finishes 3rd (3 points out of first place) again and tied for goals.

Yet again another huge stain.

14-15 Finishes 3rd place with 84 points in 77 GP, leads NHL in PPG

15-16 3rd in points again 4 points out of second place, another huge stain.


So if he is healthy and plays in all those games and a little luck he suddenly is exponentially better because he wins an Extra art Ross or 2 or 3 but instead you are calling this a stain?

It's kind of ironic that he was the captain and driving the bus, or in the front seat if you want for 2 SC's in those years and a SC final against a dynasty Detroit team.

What you call 4 seasons of stain is the bedrock for an average HHOF resume that's how ridiculous your narrow viewpoint looks.


If you say so it must be true right?

there aren't 8 players in contention for 6th spot (or 5th spot if you remove McDavid from the equation Crosby has the best case for 5th)

Most of the people that have crosby ahead fully expect McDavid to be tracking to pass Crosby but he is only 9 seasons in and Crosby has 19 seasons of elite level of play going here.

Gretzky didn't pass Orr or Howe in 1983 so pump the breaks a bit or the "shoulda, woulda, coulda" entourage that you are part of will call you out for making stuff up....wait that doesn't get applied equally thus 1 million pages in this thread and 99.9% of one posters life the past 2 or 3 weeks around here.

You spent all that time because you thought I said 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 were huge stains.

 

[Thenameless]

If he won 5 despite of his injury issues then we wouldn't be having this debate right now, and we'd be discussing Crosby vs Lemieux instead.

Don't do that. Crosby with no injuries in his career is still less than Lemieux with all his injuries. Lemieux is the only one that can be compared to Orr and Gretzky (I didn't see Howe at his best).

 

[Thenameless]

So Hyman scores a hat trick in game 7 and wins the stanley cup ,McDavid has 0 points, this means McDavid magically becomes a better hockey player than he was in game 6 , do you agree with this statement?



Are we even still comparing who the better hockey player is or just who won more cups. Because who the better hockey player compared to his peers historically is already McDavid.



28 years old and he's already surpassed him....

I know what you mean about how silly that sounds, but I think it makes a huge difference. Ovechkin finally winning a Cup probably cemented him above Bobby Hull as the top left winger of all time.

I have Lafleur over Marcel Dionne because of team accomplishments. I understand that switching their team situations could have ended in much different results, but I also understand that Dionne could not have done any better than Lafleur the few times that Montreal was in trouble during the playoffs, and really needed him to come through.

And I still have Crosby ahead of McDavid because of team accomplishments. If McDavid wins the Cup, the flood gates all of a sudden open to all of those Art Rosses and Harts having more meaning. McDavid just winning one Cup is an absolute game changer opening him up to pass and even badly leave behind Crosby, and him never winning a Cup will always leave him behind the all-time greats, fair or not.

Greatness in team sports is a combination of both individual accomplishments and team accomplishments.

 

[wetcoast]

You spent all that time because you thought I said 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 were huge stains.

View attachment 898483

Maybe instead of posting your favorite memes to impress.....whomever, communicate more clearly as you posted this all in one paragraph.

Losing in 2014-2015 and 2015-2016 were huge stains. He wasn’t good enough in 2008-2009 or 2009-2010 either. If he collects even one from each of those pieces of bread, this is an entirely different discussion because I would give him every benefit of the doubt at that point. He wasn’t good enough.

Huge stains in the first sentence.

Second sentence refers to the first sentence.

Third sentence you lump them all together.

Last sentence was your prevailing misguided thought that "he wasn't good enough", when he clearly was.

It's the difference in arguments and honesty here.

I'm not going to harp that McDavid wasn't good enough in the playoffs because he was, if you are that insecure about your position that you have to distort Crosby's skill set then it weakens your argument.

But then again if you brought some honesty to the discussion you wouldn't be getting the likes from the usual crowd either.

 

[wetcoast]

I know what you mean about how silly that sounds, but I think it makes a huge difference. Ovechkin finally winning a Cup probably cemented him above Bobby Hull as the top left winger of all time.

I have Lafleur over Marcel Dionne because of team accomplishments. I understand that switching their team situations could have ended in much different results, but I also understand that Dionne could not have done any better than Lafleur the few times that Montreal was in trouble during the playoffs, and really needed him to come through.

And I still have Crosby ahead of McDavid because of team accomplishments. If McDavid wins the Cup, the flood gates all of a sudden open to all of those Art Rosses and Harts having more meaning. McDavid just winning one Cup is an absolute game changer opening him up to pass and even badly leave behind Crosby, and him never winning a Cup will always leave him behind the all-time greats, fair or not.

Greatness in team sports is a combination of both individual accomplishments and team accomplishments.

I have disagreed with the Dionne/Lafleur example in the past and still do, they should be much closer unless one absolutely weighs peak very heavily and doesn't weigh or factor career or differences outside of eak prime as much.

McDavid really doesn't look that much different with one SC just like Crosby doesn't really look that much different with 20 more games and 20 more strategic points spread around careerwise is my point, the sample size of excellence is there for both Crosby and McDavid in both of these situations.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I have disagreed with the Dionne/Lafleur example in the past and still do, they should be much closer unless one absolutely weighs peak very heavily and doesn't weigh or factor career or differences outside of eak prime as much.

McDavid really doesn't look that much different with one SC just like Crosby doesn't really look that much different with 20 more games and 20 more strategic points spread around careerwise is my point, the sample size of excellence is there for both Crosby and McDavid in both of these situations.


Sums up how some people view the value of your arguments sure........

Except a WIDE majority of posters on this site have Crosby ahead because McDavid doesn’t have A cup. It’s the one difference, the one thing Crosby has that McDavid doesn’t have. The one that has been defining his “leadership” and abilities as a player for many.

To say it wouldn’t make a difference is absolutely ludicrous and you know it.

 

[norrisnick]

Except a WIDE majority of posters on this site have Crosby ahead because McDavid doesn’t have A cup. It’s the one difference, the one thing Crosby has that McDavid doesn’t have. The one that has been defining his “leadership” and abilities as a player for many.

To say it wouldn’t make a difference is absolutely ludicrous and you know it.

Not to mention it's disingenuous AF to sprinkle around 20 whatever points as if that wouldn't also boost everyone else. Or disregarding that 20 strategic points in the other direction and presto Crosby has zero scoring titles and no Harts.

Just stick with what actually happened.

 

[pi314]

So Hyman scores a hat trick in game 7 and wins the stanley cup ,McDavid has 0 points, this means McDavid magically becomes a better hockey player than he was in game 6 , do you agree with this statement?



Are we even still comparing who the better hockey player is or just who won more cups. Because who the better hockey player compared to his peers historically is already McDavid.



28 years old and he's already surpassed him....

I’ll take theoretical things that never happened for $2000 Alex.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I know what you mean about how silly that sounds, but I think it makes a huge difference. Ovechkin finally winning a Cup probably cemented him above Bobby Hull as the top left winger of all time.

I have Lafleur over Marcel Dionne because of team accomplishments. I understand that switching their team situations could have ended in much different results, but I also understand that Dionne could not have done any better than Lafleur the few times that Montreal was in trouble during the playoffs, and really needed him to come through.

And I still have Crosby ahead of McDavid because of team accomplishments. If McDavid wins the Cup, the flood gates all of a sudden open to all of those Art Rosses and Harts having more meaning. McDavid just winning one Cup is an absolute game changer opening him up to pass and even badly leave behind Crosby, and him never winning a Cup will always leave him behind the all-time greats, fair or not.

Greatness in team sports is a combination of both individual accomplishments and team accomplishments.

Lafleur won 3x art Ross and 2x hart
3x pearson
6x first all star
Rocket winner x1 (before there was an award)

Dionne
1x art ross
0 hart
2x pearson
2x first all star

Cups have nothing to do with lafleur being ranked higher than Dionne

Personal resume does

Ovechkin being the best goal scorer of all time puts him ahead of Bobby hull, not a fluke playoff run where his team beat an expansion team in the finals

Hasek has less cups and conn Smythes than Roy - hasek was the better goalie

Scott neidermayer won with every team he played with, ray bourque would still go down as the better player even without that cup win as a complimentary player in Colorado

 

[GreatGonzo]

I’ll take theoretical things that never happened for $2000 Alex.

Like Crosby showing up in game 7? You would have thought he did the way a few posters talk about his finals play that year.

 

[norrisnick]

I’ll take theoretical things that never happened for $2000 Alex.

Welcome to Crosby's "peak".

 

[Frank Drebin]

I’ll take theoretical things that never happened for $2000 Alex.

When you get hit in the face with the absurdity of your argument, this is the type of reply you get

 

[BlueSeal]

McDavid won a Conn Smythe this year and had one of the stronger playoff performances of the century. He's been excellent in the playoffs the last three years.

I value playoff play and definitely think it should be considered when comparing players. But comparing playoff performance based on Cups won isn't a good metric when comparing individual players.

If you want to rank Crosby ahead for now due to longevity of strong play (regular season + playoffs), that's fine. I don't think the fact that he has more Cups is a good reason to rate or rank him higher. You can say he has a number of strong playoff runs and a very good playoff career in general.

I will absolutely stand by the fact that McDavid's playoff stats are stronger than Crosby.

I will also stand by the fact that Crosby has 2 Conn Smythes and both Cups to match.

Crosby doesn't have to be 'like' McDavid to be considered an equal tiered player. If stats were everything and the only thing, where is McDavid's Cup?

The only time it would matter is if they were playing each other and I have yet to see anyone pull up stats for that, possibly out of fear,

 

[Frank Drebin]

I will absolutely stand by the fact that McDavid's playoff stats are stronger than Crosby.

I will also stand by the fact that Crosby has 2 Conn Smythes and both Cups to match.

Crosby doesn't have to be 'like' McDavid to be considered an equal tiered player. If stats were everything and the only thing, where is McDavid's Cup?

The only time it would matter is if they were playing each other and I have yet to see anyone pull up stats for that, possibly out of fear,

If cups mean everything when evaluating a player, you had toews and kopitar as superior players to Crosby as recently as 2015?

It’s a thought exercise. No reply needed

 

[BlueSeal]

Are we in the thread discussing the tiers of the Penguins and Oilers? Seems you might be lost...

Or are you suggesting Maroon = Crosby?

Even Gretzky couldn't win a Cup in St. Louis lol.

And Crosby didn't win consecutive Cups.

And McDavid... well... he's seen what the Cup looks like lol. And his legendary stats sure as hell didn't help win him one, whether he deserved it or not lol.

The fact that Pat Maroon annoys people, pleases me. The fact he's one of the Blues to finally do the impossible and hoist the Cup is a time I will never forget and he contributed in his own way and a trash goal against Dallas that got the ball rolling.

 

[BlueSeal]

If cups mean everything when evaluating a player, you had toews and kopitar as superior players to Crosby as recently as 2015?

It’s a thought exercise. No reply needed

I never had Toews or Kopitar on anything. I never said anything of the sort, either.

You like coming up with extreme criteria to try and pass along your agenda, huh?

I'm many things, but at least I'm consistent. I put Crosby over McDavid until further notice and you're just going to have to figure out how to live with it. Life is all YMMV and that's how mine varies on this .

 

[norrisnick]

Even Gretzky couldn't win a Cup in St. Louis lol.

And Crosby didn't win consecutive Cups.

And McDavid... well... he's seen what the Cup looks like lol. And his legendary stats sure as hell didn't help win him one, whether he deserved it or not lol.

The fact that Pat Maroon annoys people to this make pleases me. The fact he's one of the Blues to finally do the impossible and hoist the Cup is a time I will never forget and he contributed in his own way and a trash goal against Dallas that got the ball rolling.

Sir and/or madam, are you having a stroke?

 

[BlueSeal]

Sir and/or madam, are you having a stroke?

With a side of lime.

 

[nergish]

I’m not even sure that the Great One is a “tier above” Crosby tbh

 

[Video Nasty]

The only time it would matter is if they were playing each other and I have yet to see anyone pull up stats for that, possibly out of fear,

Trust me, you don’t want to open that can of worms.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Cups are team awards, there is no getting around it.

Gretzky won zero cups without an all-time stacked lineup. Put him on a lesser team for his whole career and he most likely retires without one, still would be the same exact player though.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Trust me, you don’t want to open that can of worms.

View attachment 898496

was about to say, that was quite scary