Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[MacMacandBarbie]

Is this a serious post?

Do you think Crosby ever touched the ice in the Finals without Babcock sending his best defensive forward on Crosby? Crosby drew that level of attention. Maurice was comfortable playing other lines against McDavid. His shot wasn't looking very dangerous this year, including playoffs, and once the Panthers figured that out they looked a lot more effective against him. I know saying he was anything less than perfect is going to irk you though.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Great players improve their teammates even when they aren't playing with them on the ice. Rumor has it Crosby placed his hands on every Penguin in the locker room before the 3rd period of Game 7 in 09.

Indeed, and we have actual footage of it:

 

[nbwingsfan]

Didn’t he command the attention of and neutralize Detroit’s biggest weapons in that series, including game 7? I don’t remember Lidstrom/Rafalski/Zetterberg finding the scoresheet in that game.


Never said that

Commanded the attention of and neutralized Detroit’s best weapons.

To any played like 8mins or something in game 7 of his first cup win

 

[nbwingsfan]

We’ve now reached the point of Crosby’s incredible leadership “willed” the Pens to win game 7 while he stapled to the bench.

It’s incredible they haven’t won the cup every season with an aura as strong as his.

I’m bowing out, this thread has reached lunacy status from certain posters

 

[bambamcam4ever]

In game 7 with McDavid on the ice 5 vs 5 the Oilers outshot Florida 10-4 and Florida did not score. Scoring chances were also 10-4 for the Oilers and HDCF was 5 to 2. McDavid also had a tipped shot that went off the post. Even vs Barkov specifically scoring chances and HDCF favoured McDavid's line. So by shutting him down I guess you mean that their goalie made some good saves. On the other hand was it McDavid's job to stop the Reinhart goal from the bench??


But he willed his team to win from the bench something McDavid simply can't do.

Crosby is a great player, and it is legitimate to feel that McDavid is not a tier above, but some of the arguments are so thin that it is impossible to take them seriously.

What were McDavid's on ice shot attempt numbers before being put with Draisaitl in game 7? When you're playing with every one of your team's best players you need to score. And at least a couple of those attempts came after a blatant interference by Hyman to give McDavid his wide open chance that he flubbed with 6 minutes left. So credit to McDavid for having the refs on his side I guess?

 

[Fourier]

Do you think Crosby ever touched the ice in the Finals without Babcock sending his best defensive forward on Crosby? Crosby drew that level of attention. Maurice was comfortable playing other lines against McDavid. His shot wasn't looking very dangerous this year, including playoffs, and once the Panthers figured that out they looked a lot more effective against him. I know saying he was anything less than perfect is going to irk you though.

You don't even seem to have a logically consistent perspective for your claim. Even if it was possible for Florida to ensure that McDavid was never on the ice without Barkov/Reinhart, it would still be possible for Barkov/Reinhart to be on the ice when McDavid was not. Hence no matter how well McDavid played it could still have been the case that Barkov/Reinhart scored while McDavid was on the bench. And for the record that is exaclty what happened in game seven hence my query about McDavid having to stop the goal from the bench.

Pretty much every Oiler fan recognized that McDavid's shot was not look all that dangerous not only for the finals but most of the year. There is fairly credible speculation that this was due to a fairly significant core injury he played with almost since the beginning of the year. That is not intended as an excuse for them losing. Every team has injuries, but it is simply a fact.

 

[Fourier]

What were McDavid's on ice shot attempt numbers before being put with Draisaitl in game 7? When you're playing with every one of your team's best players you need to score. And at least a couple of those attempts came after a blatant interference by Hyman to give McDavid his wide open chance that he flubbed with 6 minutes left. So credit to McDavid for having the refs on his side I guess?

If simply playing with your best players meant you were suppose to score I am assuming that you feel that every pp should result in a goal and that teams with a less than 100% pp percentage are failing? If it was as easy to score as you seem to suggest teh Oilers would simply play their best together all the time and never lose. Why do you think that no coach has ever figured this out???

Things seem to be getting more absurd on here by the minute.

 

[Mrb1p]

I have already acknowledged that there are legitimate reasons why the two may be viewed in that same tier. I see it differently myself but others disagree. So be it. Frankly though, I think arguing about scoring accomplishments or other tangible aspects of a players game has far more legitimacy than the very nebulous "winner" and "leader" arguments. One can of course attempt to counter the former using era adjusted stats but these have always seemed a bit dubious to me. While they have merit, they tend to introduce a lot of noise as well.

So you're one to believe that:
Matthews is a better goalscorer than Ovi
Mcdavid is a level above sid.
Mackinnon is on a similar level to sid
Kucherov is on the same level as Sid
Crosby is just as good as he was 8 years ago
Draisaitl is a level above or at the very least on the same level as Crosby

On paper and tangible scoring accomplishment all favor the argument above.

Do you think the two best player of the past generation can be so easily outdone by so many other players? Doesn't this raise your eyebrow at all?

Also, if we want to talk about scoring accomplishment and talent it is impossible to ignore that Crosby missed the bulk of his absolute offensive peak to injuries, something Mcdavid hasn't had to deal with.

Any argument in favor of Mcdavid is easily dismissed, unless it's that of greatness and possible runway. Then again I'm not sure you can think of greatness and shed away Crosby as he's the winningest player in recent history (past ~30 years after Messier)

Well said. I would like to add that I see a path for Howe to be matched, but it literally involves McDavid having the same 9 seasons he just had again, but also adding a few Richard trophies in there, because Howe was a better goal scorer and led the league 5 times. He also won a lot, so McDavid would have to snag a Cup as well.

That's either underrating Mcdavid and Crosby by a lot or overrating Howe.

If Mcdavid repeats 9 seasons like he just had he will be forever the greatest of all time.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

If Mcdavid repeats 9 seasons like he just had he will be forever the greatest of all time.

He would still be slightly behind Gretzky's accomplishments and about even with Howe, unless he managed to get better at competing for the Richard along the way in the repeat.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

You don't even seem to have a logically consistent perspective for your claim. Even if it was possible for Florida to ensure that McDavid was never on the ice without Barkov/Reinhart, it would still be possible for Barkov/Reinhart to be on the ice when McDavid was not. Hence no matter how well McDavid played it could still have been the case that Barkov/Reinhart scored while McDavid was on the bench. And for the record that is exaclty what happened in game seven hence my query about McDavid having to stop the goal from the bench.

Solid point.

Pretty much every Oiler fan recognized that McDavid's shot was not look all that dangerous not only for the finals but most of the year. There is fairly credible speculation that this was due to a fairly significant core injury he played with almost since the beginning of the year. That is not intended as an excuse for them losing. Every team has injuries, but it is simply a fact.

Crosby's entire 09' dominant run of 14 goals in 17 games seems to be getting invalidated in this particular thread because he was playing hurt in the finals, but any criticism of McDavid's weak goal scoring threat throughout this year and the playoffs is hand waived away for whatever reason, not necessarily by you, but it is odd to read and a real change from what the sentiment was 15 years ago.

 

[Offtheboard412]

I thought the old Crosby vs Ovechkin threads dragged on forever, but clearly those have now been surpassed by Crosby vs McDavid threads. Truly impressive stuff.

 

[GreatGonzo]

What were McDavid's on ice shot attempt numbers before being put with Draisaitl in game 7? When you're playing with every one of your team's best players you need to score. And at least a couple of those attempts came after a blatant interference by Hyman to give McDavid his wide open chance that he flubbed with 6 minutes left. So credit to McDavid for having the refs on his side I guess?

Are you still really attempting to pass off your little fairy tales as facts?

Solid point.

Crosby's entire 09' dominant run of 14 goals in 17 games seems to be getting invalidated in this particular thread because he was playing hurt in the finals, but any criticism of McDavid's weak goal scoring threat throughout this year and the playoffs is hand waived away for whatever reason, not necessarily by you, but it is odd to read and a real change from what the sentiment was 15 years ago.

McDavid was hurt playing in the finals too and still managed 3 goals and 11 points…

 

[Fourier]

So you're one to believe that:
Matthews is a better goalscorer than Ovi
Mcdavid is a level above sid.
Mackinnon is on a similar level to sid
Kucherov is on the same level as Sid
Crosby is just as good as he was 8 years ago
Draisaitl is a level above or at the very least on the same level as Crosby

On paper and tangible scoring accomplishment all favor the argument above.

Do you think the two best player of the past generation can be so easily outdone by so many other players? Doesn't this raise your eyebrow at all?

Also, if we want to talk about scoring accomplishment and talent it is impossible to ignore that Crosby missed the bulk of his absolute offensive peak to injuries, something Mcdavid hasn't had to deal with.

Any argument in favor of Mcdavid is easily dismissed, unless it's that of greatness and possible runway. Then again I'm not sure you can think of greatness and shed away Crosby as he's the winningest player in recent history (past ~30 years after Messier)


That's either underrating Mcdavid and Crosby by a lot or overrating Howe.

If Mcdavid repeats 9 seasons like he just had he will be forever the greatest of all time.

On one hand you have taken what I said and extrapolated it way beyond any claim I made. I never said that scoring accomplishments were explicitly determinative and even that era adjustments have their place. What I did say is that the models I have seen have in my opinion flaws which are particularly notable when applied to top players. Frankly, that is probably unavoidable because comparing generations is a very complex process.

It is possible that more than one think can be true. Scoring can be higher in one generation over another but it can also be true that top players of one generation can be better than those of the past. No one would argue that scoring in the 80's and early 90's was not much higher than in the 70's. But I would argue that the top talent of the Gretzky/Lemieux generation was better than it was in the 70's. Set aside Orr who was a defenseman and none of the big scorers of the 70's were at the level of Gretzky and Lemieux. There is a reason that those 2 combine for the top 13 highest scoring seasons of all time and its not just because scoring was easier back then.

Now are the players of today better than the Crosby/Ovy generation? For me the only one I would put at or above Crosby overall is McDavid. Specifically with respect to the OV/Matthews comparison in terms of goal scoring it is possible that Matthews will prove to be better. I am no Matthews fan but by any standards he is a remarkable goal scorer.

My personal argument in favour of McDavid over Crosby is based not only on scoring stats alone but also in watching the guy play game in and game out. I've seen him do things that no one before him has been able to do and for my money he has moved closer to what I saw from Gretzky than I would have ever expected. Admittedly some of this is a challenge to qualify which is why I have not spend much if any time in this thread trying to justify my own choice to anyone else but rather chose to focus on arguments that I find particularly dubious.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Solid point.

Crosby's entire 09' dominant run of 14 goals in 17 games seems to be getting invalidated in this particular thread because he was playing hurt in the finals, but any criticism of McDavid's weak goal scoring threat throughout this year and the playoffs is hand waived away for whatever reason, not necessarily by you, but it is odd to read and a real change from what the sentiment was 15 years ago.

He played 24 games in 09 not 17, oh wait forgot you didn’t want to include the finals.

You keep mentioning Zetterburg in finals
Zetterburg 6 points and +3
Sid 3 points a -3

 

[Video Nasty]

He would still be slightly behind Gretzky's accomplishments and about even with Howe, unless he managed to get better at competing for the Richard along the way in the repeat.

All this does is tell us that there’s nothing McDavid can ever do for you to rank him higher than #5 (and the way you’ve spent the last hundred pages maybe he still couldn’t surpass Crosby in your eyes…oh and of course your heart).

In the pure fantasy scenario of McDavid matching his own personal accomplishments from the first half of his career, (which I don’t agree with, McDavid might win another two Harts max, across the remaining 9-11 seasons he likely has left), that would give him a read out of:

6 Harts, 16 finalist nominations, a top 5 nomination for 17 years in a row (some combination of most or second most ever)

10 Art Rosses (tied for most ever)

8 Lindsays (most ever)

1964 points in 1,290 games across 18 seasons (second most ever)

14 100+ point seasons (second to Gretzky’s 15)

1,294 assists (second most ever)

16 seasons of both top 2 raw points and PPG finishes (I’m guessing

18 seasons in a row of top 3 PPG

I’m guessing both of those are the most ever or second to Gretzky)

2 Conn Smythes

In a modern day league with 30-32 teams.

About even with Howe? I don’t see how it’s not more, even if we retroactively grant him some hardware that didn’t exist at the time and play in the sandbox of adjusted stats. And if McDavid ran it from beginning to end like that, you had better believe that there would be an extremely vocal crowd questioning if there’s no limit to high how he could rank.

I don’t think he pulls off most of this, particularly since there’s no agenda right now to hand him phantom hardware or make up for supposed missed out opportunities. His Hart voting will eventually suffer, due to a combination of fatigue and battling his own best in the world highest standards. Obviously, there will come a point where winning the Art Ross is no longer the norm. And so on.

But thanks for confirming that you possess no bias and have no agenda of protecting Crosby’s legacy.

 

[wetcoast]

Unfortunately, the vast majority of hockey fans ascribe significant weight to happenstance.

Parsing actual individual contributions is apparently too much to ask.

 

[wetcoast]

Well said. I would like to add that I see a path for Howe to be matched, but it literally involves McDavid having the same 9 seasons he just had again, but also adding a few Richard trophies in there, because Howe was a better goal scorer and led the league 5 times. He also won a lot, so McDavid would have to snag a Cup as well.

Sorry but this is ridiculous given that one played in a 6 team league and the other in a 32 salary cap league.

Howe is part of the big 4 and some have him higher than 4th but the bar of 9 more seasons like the last 9 is ridiculous.

6 Hart trophies along with 10 Art Ross trophies and 2 Conn Smythe is not the bar McDavid needs to be considered greater than Howe.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Zetterberg deserves a lot of credit that he rarely receives. Fans look at that 09 series as a failure of Crosby's (or Toews in 2013) but at a certain point you've got to acknowledge the incredible talent level #40 had at shutting down the opposition and completely getting in their heads. I would bet Zetterberg would have done something similar to McDavid if he was 28 years old on the 2024 Panthers.

I think you're a meathead if you just post the stat-line and have that be your argument. It betrays your ignorance to what went down those playoff series. I'm biased but the 1C's: Toews/Zetterberg/Kopitar/Barkov are my favorite type of player in the league. At a cost of a few tens of decimals to their PPG they majorly impact a series by being dominant in all three zones.

 

[Midnight Judges]

View attachment 897751

Again, your post demonstrates severe confusion.

The "until McDavid wins a cup" statements are not inventions here.

 

[wetcoast]

Again, your post demonstrates severe confusion.

The "until McDavid wins a cup" statements are not inventions here.

The straw man should be your avatar since you have it so much like your friend Bozo the clown.


I'm not a "he needs to win a SC guy and wasn't for the second leading scorer on the Capitals SC either but surprisingly in this past season's McDavid run your "secondary sid " argument is nowhere to be seen.

But then again you, and the other Big 3 McDavid guys in this debate are consistently inconsistent is evaluating all players equally and fairly.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Only players in history that have won multiple cups, harts, and conn smythes.

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Crosby

That is why he's regarded so highly and a strong contender for #5 all time.

 

[Golden_Jet]

But then again you, and the other Big 3 McDavid guys in this debate are consistently inconsistent is evaluating all players equally and fairly.

That’s basically a pot meet kettle in this thread.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Zetterberg deserves a lot of credit that he rarely receives. Fans look at that 09 series as a failure of Crosby's (or Toews in 2013) but at a certain point you've got to acknowledge the incredible talent level #40 had at shutting down the opposition and completely getting in their heads. I would bet Zetterberg would have done something similar to McDavid if he was 28 years old on the 2024 Panthers.

I think you're a meathead if you just post the stat-line and have that be your argument. It betrays your ignorance to what went down those playoff series. I'm biased but the 1C's: Toews/Zetterberg/Kopitar/Barkov are my favorite type of player in the league. At a cost of a few tens of decimals to their PPG they majorly impact a series by being dominant in all three zones.

Maybe, no way of knowing or proving that.

As opposed to the romanticized version Where Crosbys 3 points was more “impactful” that oozing in ”leadership” and “winning.” Citing the idea that it’s not “all about stats” simply shows a lack of argument for something outside of that.

Crosby has no argument in the finals, but now you are reinforcing the idea that it wasn’t him, Zetterberg was just far to good..and that’s meant to take the heat off of Crosby.

The straw man should be your avatar since you have it so much like your friend Bozo the clown.


I'm not a "he needs to win a SC guy and wasn't for the second leading scorer on the Capitals SC either but surprisingly in this past season's McDavid run your "secondary sid " argument is nowhere to be seen.

But then again you, and the other Big 3 McDavid guys in this debate are consistently inconsistent is evaluating all players equally and fairly.

You can’t be serious…

 

[Midnight Judges]

The straw man should be your avatar since you have it so much like your friend Bozo the clown.

I just demonstrated that I didn't make a straw man argument. So either your confusion is somehow persisting or you are intent to say dishonest things.

I'm not a "he needs to win a SC guy and wasn't for the second leading scorer on the Capitals SC either but surprisingly in this past season's McDavid run your "secondary sid " argument is nowhere to be seen.

10 out of 42 of McDavid's playoff points are secondary assists. 23.8% isn't a particularly high ratio.

That number is 29% in the regular season. I mean yeah, 38 secondary assists is noteworthy. It's not as high as Crosby's 33% in 2014, but it's something. I don't know how you jump to the conclusion that I'm inconsistent here.

Internal, secondary assists aren't as good as goals. There is no rational basis for me to change that opinion under any circumstances.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Maybe, no way of knowing or proving that.

As opposed to the romanticized version Where Crosbys 3 points was more “impactful” that oozing in ”leadership” and “winning.” Citing the idea that it’s not “all about stats” simply shows a lack of argument for something outside of that.

Crosby has no argument in the finals, but now you are reinforcing the idea that it wasn’t him, Zetterberg was just far to good..and that’s meant to take the heat off of Crosby.

You can’t be serious…

I'm not arguing his 3 points was more impactful. I'm saying it's dumb to just look at that stat-line and ignore that Zetterberg is a HoF talent who thrived in cancelling out the other team's 1C. I'm not absolving Crosby of blame here, just saying there was a reason he didn't put put a PPG or better SCF run. Some of that is because Zetterberg was a fantastic player