Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Fourier]

That wasn't his moment. That's why he has 3 lol. And 2 Conn Smythes but feel free to nitpick a winner.

When Mcdavid gets his (and he will), we'll discuss it for generations to come.

So if the Oilers had won the last game 1-0 what would have been McDavid's moment???

McDavid was fantastic throughtout the playoffs. There is no Game 7 without him.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Hypothetically, if McDavid wins the next 6 Art Ross/Hart trophies consecutively, along with 30 and 40pt post seasons each time but whatever goalie EDM has can’t stop allowing 5+ goals each game in losing efforts… you still wouldn’t consider him one of the 5 best players of all time?

like I said, its just little premature. I never said it was impossible. I also think McDavid is going to win one as well. I just dunno if I can right now place him over Crosby.

and I dunno. another 6 years from now I might be completely onboard. my opinions on Crosby changed alot over the years too.

we're only 9 seasons into his career. he will get there. I think he has potential to be the 4th or 5th best player of all time. I just dunno if he's done enough yet

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

Crosby is the better player - for now

And I find it indisputable (even if thats a hot take)

Its possible McDavid passes him but he needs to achieve some things that he hasnt yet; not everything is about scoring records

Offensively yes he has Crosby beat - though Id have loved to have seen what Crosby would have done healthy, without the concussions

Though it goes understated how consistently incredible Crosby was during the periods of hockey he played in

 

[BlueSeal]

So if the Oilers had won the last game 1-0 what would have been McDavid's moment???

McDavid was fantastic throughtout the playoffs. There is no Game 7 without him.

There was no Connor or Cup in Game 6 and 7 either..

 

[GreatGonzo]

That stop making lazy ill informed posts.

English?…

The Cats held McDavid to 0 points in Games 1, 6 and 7. He had 1 point in Game 2 and multiple points in Game 3, 4 and 5, so I'd argue that if you want to stop the Oilers, neutralize McDavid. The Cats blueline did just that, so they're better than McDavid.

That's why I consider Crosby better than McDavid. At the end of the day, you have to find a way and elevate your game, not in those others games where you put up dozens of points, but in the games that matter the most. That to me defines greatness. You can win every trophy but if you can't win the trophy your team is going after, what does that say about you, especially after your team put the foot to the floor, evened the series, broke the Cats resolve and moved in for the kill after winning Game 6 without any help from McDavid. That moment, Game 7, is when it matters for you to be the greatest player playing in the NHL today, when you should put the team on your breaking back and stumble out to end it and fufill your destiny.

The numbers don't define greatness, the moments do.

Pat Maroon scoring a garbage goal againt Bishop and pushing the Blues forward in 2019 doesn't seem like much at all, but that moment made him legendary because of what it all eventually led to and meant. He'll always be the hometown hero and his name is proudly etched on the Cup.

McDavid had that moment and didn't fufill it. The thing is, he's so talented that he'll get another shot, when that moment comes, hopefully he takes it.

Remind me how Crosby elevated his play in games 1,2,5,6, and 7….ill wait…

And yet Crosby didn’t even do that, yet you hold it against McDavid for not doing what Crosby didn’t even accomplish?

Sounds about right..

That wasn't his moment. That's why he has 3 lol. And 2 Conn Smythes but feel free to nitpick a winner.

When Mcdavid gets his (and he will), we'll discuss it for generations to come.

Which was his moment?…

Nit picked? It was his only game 7 during his first cup win. Wasn’t that supposed to be THE moment? That’s what you just said….yet Crosby didn’t show up. Didn’t elevate anyone, and definitely didn’t put the team on his back…

Crosby is the better player - for now

And I find it indisputable (even if thats a hot take)

Its possible McDavid passes him but he needs to achieve some things that he hasnt yet; not everything is about scoring records

Offensively yes he has Crosby beat - though Id have loved to have seen what Crosby would have done healthy, without the concussions

Though it goes understated how consistently incredible Crosby was during the periods of hockey he played in

Better player or right now has the better career?…

I don’t see how Crosby is the “better player” right now

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Which was his moment?…

Nit picked? It was his only game 7 during his first cup win. Wasn’t that supposed to be THE moment? That’s what you just said….yet Crosby didn’t show up. Didn’t elevate anyone, and definitely didn’t put the team on his back…

Game 7 in his first cup win, Sidney Crosby scored two goals to propel his team past a formidable Capitals squad led by Alexander Ovechkin, the guy being proclaimed as the best player in the league at the time by McDavid super fans in this thread.

 

[Golden_Jet]

That wasn't his moment. That's why he has 3 lol. And 2 Conn Smythes but feel free to nitpick a winner.

When Mcdavid gets his (and he will), we'll discuss it for generations to come.

lol fail. For cup finals.

You: McDavid bad in game 7.
Counter: Crosby did nothing in game 7.
You: that wasn’t his moment

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Which game 7 in the SCF did Crosby define himself in?

Didn’t he command the attention of and neutralize Detroit’s biggest weapons in that series, including game 7? I don’t remember Lidstrom/Rafalski/Zetterberg finding the scoresheet in that game.

lol fail. For cup finals.

You: McDavid bad in game 7.

Never said that

Counter: Crosby did nothing in game 7.

Commanded the attention of and neutralized Detroit’s best weapons.

 

[Fourier]

There was no Connor or Cup in Game 6 and 7 either..

I have no idea what this means but ok.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

So if the Oilers had won the last game 1-0 what would have been McDavid's moment???

McDavid was fantastic throughtout the playoffs. There is no Game 7 without him.

If Hyman scores a hat trick in game 7 and singlehandedly wins the game while McDavid isn't involved in any of the goals , apparently this would make McDavid a better hockey player than he is

 

[Golden_Jet]

There was no Connor or Cup in Game 6 and 7 either..

Sounds just like Sid

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Commanded the attention of and neutralized Detroit’s best weapons.

This is insanity man I can't. He got completely clamped and you'll twist it as a positive

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

If Hyman scores a hat trick in game 7 and singlehandedly wins the game while McDavid isn't involved in any of the goals , apparently this would make McDavid a better hockey player than he was

Isn’t Barkov/Reinhart the top players on the Panthers, that shut down opponents and provide offense? Didn’t they shut down McDavid and provide offense?

Crosby was matched against Lidstrom/Zetterberg. Sure he was shut down, but he kept them busy enough to not provide offense Detroit needed.

This is insanity man I can't. He got completely clamped and you'll twist it as a positive

McDavid got completely clamped and those players still found the ice for scoring. At times, they didn’t even need to match their best defensive weapons out there against McDavid. How is McDavid’s performance being spun as more impressive? That’s what is really insane.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Isn’t Barkov/Reinhart the top players on the Panthers, that shut down opponents and provide offense? Didn’t they shut down McDavid and provide offense?

Crosby was matched against Lidstrom/Zetterberg. Sure he was shut down, but he kept them busy enough to not provide offense Detroit needed.


McDavid got completely clamped and those players still found the ice for scoring. At times, they didn’t even need to match their best defensive weapons out there against McDavid. How is McDavid’s performance being spun as more impressive? That’s what is really insane.

He put up Gretzky Lemieux numbers man give it up McDavid dominated the competition all post season , i don't see the big deal or the debate here McDavid is so clearly ahead of Sid as a hockey player I'm not even gonna debate this its so obvious to everybody outside of like 4 of you guys writing dozens and dozens of paragraphs twisting how its ok for sid to have a poor finals but McDavid should have won the cup singlehandedly

You aren't holding both of them to the same standards and its actually hilarious and quite frankly very strange that you guys don't realise it

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

He put up Gretzky Lemieux numbers man give it up McDavid dominated the competition all post season , i don't see the big deal or the debate here McDavid is so clearly ahead I'm not even gonna debate this its so obvious to everybody outside of like 4 of you guys writing dozens and dozens if paragraphs twisting how its ok for sid to have a poor finals but McDavid should have won singlehandedly

You might have a coherent point in there somewhere, but it’s so grammatically incorrect it’s been rendered incoherent. Let me know if you want to respond to the game 7 SCF performance comparison or not, no big deal if that’s where we end it.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Isn’t Barkov/Reinhart the top players on the Panthers, that shut down opponents and provide offense? Didn’t they shut down McDavid and provide offense?

Crosby was matched against Lidstrom/Zetterberg. Sure he was shut down, but he kept them busy enough to not provide offense Detroit needed.


McDavid got completely clamped and those players still found the ice for scoring. At times, they didn’t even need to match their best defensive weapons out there against McDavid. How is McDavid’s performance being spun as more impressive? That’s what is really insane.

lol, Crosby played less than 10 minutes in the game, won 14% of his face offs.

 

[Fourier]

Isn’t Barkov/Reinhart the top players on the Panthers, that shut down opponents and provide offense? Didn’t they shut down McDavid and provide offense?

Crosby was matched against Lidstrom/Zetterberg. Sure he was shut down, but he kept them busy enough to not provide offense Detroit needed.


McDavid got completely clamped and those players still found the ice for scoring. At times, they didn’t even need to match their best defensive weapons out there against McDavid. How is McDavid’s performance being spun as more impressive? That’s what is really insane.

In game 7 with McDavid on the ice 5 vs 5 the Oilers outshot Florida 10-4 and Florida did not score. Scoring chances were also 10-4 for the Oilers and HDCF was 5 to 2. McDavid also had a tipped shot that went off the post. Even vs Barkov specifically scoring chances and HDCF favoured McDavid's line. So by shutting him down I guess you mean that their goalie made some good saves. On the other hand was it McDavid's job to stop the Reinhart goal from the bench??

lol, Crosby played less than 10 minutes in the game, won 14% of his face offs.

But he willed his team to win from the bench something McDavid simply can't do.

Crosby is a great player, and it is legitimate to feel that McDavid is not a tier above, but some of the arguments are so thin that it is impossible to take them seriously.

 

[Mrb1p]

In game 7 with McDavid on the ice 5 vs 5 the Oilers outshot Florida 10-4 and Florida did not score. Scoring chances were also 10-4 for the Oilers and HDCF was 5 to 2. McDavid also had a tipped shot that went off the post. Even vs Barkov specifically scoring chances and HDCF favoured McDavid's line. So by shutting him down I guess you mean that their goalie made some good saves. On the other hand was it McDavid's job to stop the Reinhart goal from the bench??


But he willed his team to win from the bench something McDavid simply can't do.

Crosby is a great player, and it is legitimate to feel that McDavid is not a tier above, but some of the arguments are so thin that it is impossible to take them seriously.

And the arguments for Mcdavid are just as thin and balance on the single point of denying that this era is different than 05-15 in scoring. But then that's completely destroyed by the scoring of McDavids peers and the messages are just ignored or you get "but he's the best of those" kind of response.

The truth is, there is no argument for either players as better, the only arguments are both players trophy cases, and those are almost indistinguishable on sheer weight. Both are clearly generational player and just under the big three. The true question is whether they are better than Howe or not.

 

[Fourier]

And the arguments for Mcdavid are just as thin and balance on the single point of denying that this era is different than 05-15 in scoring. But then that's completely destroyed by the scoring of McDavids peers and the messages are just ignored or you get "but he's the best of those" kind of response.

The truth is, there is no argument for either players as better, the only arguments are both players trophy cases, and those are almost indistinguishable on sheer weight. Both are clearly generational player and just under the big three. The true question is whether they are better than Howe or not.

I have already acknowledged that there are legitimate reasons why the two may be viewed in that same tier. I see it differently myself but others disagree. So be it. Frankly though, I think arguing about scoring accomplishments or other tangible aspects of a players game has far more legitimacy than the very nebulous "winner" and "leader" arguments. One can of course attempt to counter the former using era adjusted stats but these have always seemed a bit dubious to me. While they have merit, they tend to introduce a lot of noise as well.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If Hyman scores a hat trick in game 7 and singlehandedly wins the game while McDavid isn't involved in any of the goals , apparently this would make McDavid a better hockey player than he is

Unfortunately, the vast majority of hockey fans ascribe significant weight to happenstance.

Parsing actual individual contributions is apparently too much to ask.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Game 7 in his first cup win, Sidney Crosby scored two goals to propel his team past a formidable Capitals squad led by Alexander Ovechkin, the guy being proclaimed as the best player in the league at the time by McDavid super fans in this thread.

Didn’t he command the attention of and neutralize Detroit’s biggest weapons in that series, including game 7? I don’t remember Lidstrom/Rafalski/Zetterberg finding the scoresheet in that game.


Never said that

Commanded the attention of and neutralized Detroit’s best weapons.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

On the other hand was it McDavid's job to stop the Reinhart goal from the bench??

It’s McDavid’s job to be so dangerous that they wouldn’t even consider matching their best defensive players against any other line.

 

[Fourier]

It’s McDavid’s job to be so dangerous that they wouldn’t even consider matching their best defensive players against any other line.

Is this a serious post?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

And the arguments for Mcdavid are just as thin and balance on the single point of denying that this era is different than 05-15 in scoring. But then that's completely destroyed by the scoring of McDavids peers and the messages are just ignored or you get "but he's the best of those" kind of response.

The truth is, there is no argument for either players as better, the only arguments are both players trophy cases, and those are almost indistinguishable on sheer weight. Both are clearly generational player and just under the big three. The true question is whether they are better than Howe or not.

Well said. I would like to add that I see a path for Howe to be matched, but it literally involves McDavid having the same 9 seasons he just had again, but also adding a few Richard trophies in there, because Howe was a better goal scorer and led the league 5 times. He also won a lot, so McDavid would have to snag a Cup as well.

 

[blundluntman]

If Hyman scores a hat trick in game 7 and singlehandedly wins the game while McDavid isn't involved in any of the goals , apparently this would make McDavid a better hockey player than he is

Great players improve their teammates even when they aren't playing with them on the ice. Rumor has it Crosby placed his hands on every Penguin in the locker room before the 3rd period of Game 7 in 09.