Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?


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GreatGonzo

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May 26, 2011
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Okay that's fair enough he got 9.48% of the vote with a strange question.

Something more definitive is the question of who is the most complete player in the game with 38.37% eh?

Also we are comparing careers not just a single season here right?

Or the "if you need to win a faceoff which player would you pick"? Crosby 2nd there again 13.59%

But sure your crowd think he is crap defensively.

But seriously I'm all for looking at these polls every year and other have mentioned them as well so it's great that you agree here that's some common ground.

be sure to tell your friends in Detroit and washington about the news.
Strange question? :laugh: how is that a strange question, yet “most complete” makes perfect sense.

So one is a strange question while the other is “definitive.” Sounds about right coming from you.

I was simply pointing out that McDavid seems to be doing just fine defensively to get such praise. Weird how Crosbys defensive numbers were rather weak this year…

No, "if you need to win a faceoff which player would you pick" is such a strange question. Who you would pick to win a single game is much more “definitive” :thumbu:

He wasn’t good defensively this year. That’s not debatable, sorry to break it to you.

If your grandchildrens truly care about sports, they will ask you why Crosby won three times, while McDavid couldn’t win once, despite being surrounded by similar talent and dominating the league to a similar degree.

I truly wish you get to see your team win in your lifetime. You’ll see that the moment your guy touches the cup will be 100% times better than watching him at the NHL Awards get called to accept his Art-Ross.
I’ll tell you what, I’m definitely not going to say to them, “well Crosby was simply a great leader and winner….where as McDavid cares to much about getting to 40 points instead of TRULY caring about his team winning.”

When they ask you why Crosby only had 19 points in 24 games in 2016, what will you say? What about why Crosbys finals numbers are so mediocre? What will you say?…
Actually, you’d be asking the right guy. Crosby has been notoriously known for signing a 12 year contract at a lower salary agaisnt the cap that he could’ve gotten, just so his team could get out and get better players.

PuckPedia says that at the time of the signature, in 2012, Crosby’s cap hit of 8,7M accounted for 13,53% of the salary cap. That % has consistently gone down since and will be at just below 10% for the next season.

We’ll see if McDavid follows his footsteps by offering his team similar leverage to help them build a better team, at the signature of his next contract.
:laugh::laugh: Looking for more things to blame McDavid for I see?

Crosby was the 2nd highest paid player from 2009-11, 2014-15, was the 3rd highest in 2012 and 2016. He literally has the highest earnings in NHL history.
 
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wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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The exact same things can be said for Pens fans coming up with the most outlandish statements regarding McDavid to try and and prove (maybe to themselves?) that Crosby was better
They are on the same tier neither is removed from the other a great deal here.

The supporting casts of Crosby and Bedard were not even remotely comparable.
They were both the worst teams in the league and sure Pittsburg was a little better but Crosby was better as well.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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No it wasn't.

The 91 Pens had 9 hall of famers (including Jagr), I highly doubt the 2024 Oilers will come anywhere close to that. McDavid and Draisaitl sure, possibly Bouchard and then Perry (but he was a very minor contributor to this years team).
This is true but some of those guys weren't at a HHOF level at that time and the Pens had a way easier path to the SC including playing a sub .500 team in the finals, the only strong team they played was boston in the 3rd round.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
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Yeah he did. Anyone who watched the first five years of his career, particularly 2007-2008 through most of 2009-2010 knows he was an entirely different animal. He was never the best player in the world after that and he was still only 24 when it occurred.

Yeah, Ovechkin through 2011 or so scared me in a way that Ovechkin post that did not. He was a McDavid/Crosby level player. He remained a very productive player for years but he was not as impactful as he was before that point.
 
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MacMacandBarbie

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Dec 9, 2019
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The GPG average from ‘06-‘10 wasn’t much different than from ‘16-‘20. I would argue that they saw more PPs from ‘06-‘10 though.
Love when people pull statistics that could be easily looked up and verified for accuracy out of their rear end instead.
 

GreatGonzo

Registered User
May 26, 2011
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Love when people pull statistics that could be easily looked up and verified for accuracy out of their rear end instead.
2006: 3.08 GPG/ 1.03 PP/ 5.85 PPO
2007: 2.96 GPG/ 0.85 PP/ 4.85 PPO
2008: 2.78 GPG/ 0.76 PP/ 4.28 PPO
2009: 2.91 GPG/ 0.79 PP/ 4.16 PPO
2010: 2.85 GPG/ 0.68 PP/ 3.71 PPO

2016: 2.71 GPG/ 0.58 PP/ 3.11 PPO
2017: 2.77 GPG/ 0.57 PP/ 2.99 PPO
2018: 2.97 GPG/ 0.61 PP/ 3.04 PPO
2019: 3.01 GPG/ 0.58 PP/ 2.92 PPO
2020: 3.02 GPG/ 0.60 PP/ 2.97 PPO

Is that accurate enough for you? Since you apparently couldn’t do it yourself. Glad to have helped ease your suspicions though..

Looks like McDavid actually came into a lower scoring environment compared to Crosby within their first 5 years with significantly less PP opportunities and points overall.

What’s more interesting is that from 06-10, Pitt is 2nd in PP opportunities per game and overall, while being 3rd in overall PP TOI average and 5th in overall time.

From 2016-20, Edmonton is
-27th in PPO
-29th in PP TOI per game average
-29th in PPO per game average

So seems like Crosby actually came into the league with a slightly higher goals per game, all while having more PP opportunities and having more PPs being handed out during those days. This is pretty different from the “physical” and “clutch and grab era” style of play that the poster insisted …
 
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norrisnick

The best...
Apr 14, 2005
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I'm sorry but the stats, you know the stuff you hang you hat on don't bare that narrative out.

Yzerman's SOG rate dramatically changed after the 93-94 season where the upstart sharks, led by a peak young Larionov beat the Red wings in a 7 game series for the ages.

Just like your definition of defense with nobody being able to achieve it no players approach changes but the eye test tells us differently.

Then maybe follow your own advice here others shouldn't be limited by your incapacity to evaluate such things.
You mean the season where he suffered his 3rd catastrophic leg/knee injury? Something changed with his play after that? Wonder why? Guess he must have finally got with the program and decided to try defensively...

Apparently coaching staffs never change approaches either. It's all firewagon all the time and players dictate the systems.

I'm just going to let the bolded sit there and speak for itself.
 

Nadal On Clay

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A back diving, 12 year, illegal contract? Signed just before the new cba banning those types of contracts?

Altruistic Crosby was making 12m a year back in 2014,15,16

Altruistic Crosby made 86.4 m over the first 8 years of that deal an average of 10.8 per year

Which back in 2014 would have been 16.7 percent of the cap

In todays dollars that would be 14m

In 2 years when the cap is 90, about 15m

Let’s see if mcdavid is altruistic as Crosby was
It was legal when he signed the contract.

I don’t think you understand how cap hits work, do you?

Crosby’s cap hit has been 8,7M for the last 16 years. At no point in time has Crosby’s cap hit accounted for 16,7% of the cap. Crosby’s contract was just “front loaded”, which means he got paid more in the earlier years and less in the later years.

Coming from someone who has trouble understanding context and lacks critical thinking in discussions involving Crosby and McDavid, I am not surprised.
 

GreatGonzo

Registered User
May 26, 2011
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Look them up then, you’ll find out you’re wrong again.
he probably did look them up and realized he was wrong. Then decided to see if he could call my “bluff” and try to catch me in posting stats without “accuracy” in order to belittle the information. Just typical stuff from him.

Or…he’s going to just trivialize the information like he always tries to do and move the goal posts around in hopes that the argument shifts back in his favor.
 
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wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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You mean the season where he suffered his 3rd catastrophic leg/knee injury? Something changed with his play after that? Wonder why? Guess he must have finally got with the program and decided to try defensively...

Apparently coaching staffs never change approaches either. It's all firewagon all the time and players dictate the systems.

I'm just going to let the bolded sit there and speak for itself.
Your reference implied that Yzerman didn't change his game and it's clear that he did but you left the back door open for his approach.

And if you are being fair and consistent then the same applies to Crosby right?
 

norrisnick

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Apr 14, 2005
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It was legal when he signed the contract.

I don’t think you understand how cap hits work, do you?

Crosby’s cap hit has been 8,7M for the last 16 years. At no point in time has Crosby’s cap hit accounted for 16,7% of the cap. Crosby’s contract was just “front loaded”, which means he got paid more in the earlier years and less in the later years.

Coming from someone who has trouble understanding context and lacks critical thinking in discussions involving Crosby and McDavid, I am not surprised.
When Crosby first signed his $8.7M deal the AAV was at 17.3% of cap at the time. The cap of the following season wasn't yet known, but it ended up being 15.34%.

When McDavid signed his $12.5M deal the AAV was at 16.7% of the cap at the time. The cap of the following season wasn't yet known but it ended up being 15.7%

Both signed in July prior to the final year of their ELCs.
 

GreatGonzo

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May 26, 2011
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That’s okay. He’ll just pretend he meant something else entirely again.
Ya you can’t take someone seriously who says the Art Ross isn’t a “major award”, mainly due to McDavid winning it in a year where apparently he didn’t win anything major and wasn’t voted on for anything “major.”

Both of which were debunked.
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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It was legal when he signed the contract.

I don’t think you understand how cap hits work, do you?

Crosby’s cap hit has been 8,7M for the last 16 years. At no point in time has Crosby’s cap hit accounted for 16,7% of the cap. Crosby’s contract was just “front loaded”, which means he got paid more in the earlier years and less in the later years.

Coming from someone who has trouble understanding context and lacks critical thinking in discussions involving Crosby and McDavid, I am not surprised.
Highest would make it 15.34% when kicked in, but higher than 16.7 when signed.
 

Nemesis Prime

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Jun 29, 2010
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Lots of posters are trying to normalize losing in this thread, which is absolutely crazy work.

Winning the cup doesn’t make you automatically better than another player, but can definitely be used as a tiebreaker when comparing 2 players when these said players bring a similar impact for their team.
It's one thing to win a cup but when you're historically a passenger in the finals it means nothing.
 

norrisnick

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Apr 14, 2005
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Your reference implied that Yzerman didn't change his game and it's clear that he did but you left the back door open for his approach.

And if you are being fair and consistent then the same applies to Crosby right?
I very clearly, every single time, referenced that Yzerman went into every game busting his ass and doing what the coaches told him to do.

There was no "I'm gonna do what I want, f*** the strategy." Followed by "Ok, fine... I'll back check now and stop cheating for offense." That's fantasy.

Crosby has literally nothing to do with the Yzerman tangent. Yzerman came up because there was some confusion about how leadership works and trying to argue that McDavid was a bad leader. Yzerman was a shitty leader until he won and then he became a revered one. But his leadership style, what he brought to the lockerroom and to the rink never changed. The team and the systems employed by the coaching staff changed, which allowed the team to win. But starry-eyed fans want to attribute team success to the glorious qualities of the esteemed captain. That's silliness.
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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I very clearly, every single time, referenced that Yzerman went into every game busting his ass and doing what the coaches told him to do.

There was no "I'm gonna do what I want, f*** the strategy." Followed by "Ok, fine... I'll back check now and stop cheating for offense." That's fantasy.

Crosby has literally nothing to do with the Yzerman tangent. Yzerman came up because there was some confusion about how leadership works and trying to argue that McDavid was a bad leader. Yzerman was a shitty leader until he won and then he became a revered one. But his leadership style, what he brought to the lockerroom and to the rink never changed. The team and the systems employed by the coaching staff changed, which allowed the team to win. But starry-eyed fans want to attribute team success to the glorious qualities of the esteemed captain. That's silliness.
Stevie Y was not considered defensive for his first 8-10 years, seemed to coincide around the time Scotty showed up.
 

GreatGonzo

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Stevie Y was not considered defensive for his first 8-10 years, seemed to coincide around the time Scotty showed up.
Yzerman wasnt bad defensively early on. He just didn’t have the team to support him on both ends. He carried the offense for years and was never forced to play a more defensive roll. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t capable of it early on
 

Frank Drebin

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Mar 9, 2004
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It was legal when he signed the contract.

I don’t think you understand how cap hits work, do you?

Crosby’s cap hit has been 8,7M for the last 16 years. At no point in time has Crosby’s cap hit accounted for 16,7% of the cap. Crosby’s contract was just “front loaded”, which means he got paid more in the earlier years and less in the later years.

Coming from someone who has trouble understanding context and lacks critical thinking in discussions involving Crosby and McDavid, I am not surprised.
We are starting on the personal attacks, and being purposefully obtuse.

Good.
 

norrisnick

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Apr 14, 2005
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Stevie Y was not considered defensive for his first 8-10 years, seemed to coincide around the time Scotty showed up.
I mean, relative to other high end scorers of the 80s Yzerman was a Selke level guy. That shit was drilled into him in Juniors. Yzerman is one of those weird situations where he actually had a bit more freedom in the NHL than he did in the OHL. Devellano very famously thanks Peterborough's coach (Todd I think) for limiting Yzerman's offensive ice time. If he got to score like the other guys in the draft, he wouldn't have been there at #4. The dramatic team-wide shift happened after the embarrassing ends to the '95 and '96 seasons. Highlighted by Coffey being unceremoniously tossed out of town.
 

blundluntman

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Jul 30, 2016
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I very clearly, every single time, referenced that Yzerman went into every game busting his ass and doing what the coaches told him to do.

There was no "I'm gonna do what I want, f*** the strategy." Followed by "Ok, fine... I'll back check now and stop cheating for offense." That's fantasy.

Crosby has literally nothing to do with the Yzerman tangent. Yzerman came up because there was some confusion about how leadership works and trying to argue that McDavid was a bad leader. Yzerman was a shitty leader until he won and then he became a revered one. But his leadership style, what he brought to the lockerroom and to the rink never changed. The team and the systems employed by the coaching staff changed, which allowed the team to win. But starry-eyed fans want to attribute team success to the glorious qualities of the esteemed captain. That's silliness.
This is the the one form of revisionist history that I find most annoying in sports. A player can be ridiculed as a bad leader or too offensively minded and as soon as they see team success, all of a sudden they're some great leader that finally put the team above themselves. There's always gonna be this tendency to ignore roster composition for the sake of hindsight narrative.

I've even seen people say "Ovi didn't win a cup until he focused more on defense and stopped cherry-picking for goals". Which is funny considering they're often confusing his 2017 season (where he scored 33 goals and got knocked out in the 2nd round) with his 2018 season (where he actually went back to putting up similar numbers and won a rocket that year).

I wish people would realize not every star player that captains his team to a cup is Jean Beliveau or Charlie Conway
 

bambamcam4ever

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Feb 16, 2012
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This point is one of the most salient to me, and I've never really been able to get it out of my head when watching McDavid's career unfold. It's not as if playing with Draisaitl is just some trivial, harmless difference in deployment that benefits his production with no real trade-off; we've seen, time and time again, this strategy come to bite them in the playoffs. IMHO, it's the reason why they lost against Florida. They were utterly gassed in that final game - some would applaud them for giving it everything they had, but that's the same individualist mindset that both praises their gaudy point totals, and unreasonably expects and asks them to win on their own.

I think the reason the Oilers generally seem to be so ineffective with spreading talent through their lineup is because of a lack of commitment to that approach. Expectations are set early on and throughout a season, and throughout McDavid's career, the expectation set is always one of "if the rest of you guys cant produce, we'll just spend the 3rd period playing McDavid and Draisaitl for 50% of it to bail us out, so don't worry about it. This is a very "give a man a fish" mode of leadership - if you f*** up, I'll take over and handle it.

In my experience, this is not a particularly effective long-term strategy for team-building and performance. The rest of the team gets complacent, and the guy they overly-rely upon gets burnt out and beat up - in hockey terms, that means exhausted or injured. When guys feel like excellence is demanded of them, and they have to rise to the occassion to live up to the standard set by Crosby and Malkin if they want the team to win next time they step on the ice, what you see is the superior depth-scoring performance that Pittsburgh has had that Edmonton lacks.

What Crosby - and Malkin - did, was not just to "make their teammates better" in terms of applied stats and on-ice play with them on their wing: what Crosby in particular was instrumental in doing was setting the cultural expectation and attitude that Pittsburgh was a team that had to win like a team. Everything from his otherworldly offseason training and conditioning, his on-ice and in-locker room leadership, and, especially - his performance as an exceptional player, clearly communicated to every single player on the roster what was expected of them and what was demanded of them in order to win.

If you want a reson for Pittsburgh being, indisputably, the most consistent team at winning and making the playoffs over the era, despite their massive generational turnover in roster personnel (including between cups nearly a decade apart), this is it. It's San Antonio Spurs-esque. The Spurs never had the most consistently dominant individual scoring, and that's not because guys like Duncan were incapable of being individually dominant. It's not even necessarily because they "traded offense for defense" in some transactional way. It's because players like Duncan and Crosby have routinely passed up opportunities to score more. At any time, they could have shoved the absolute best linemates (in this case, Malkin etc.) onto Crosby's wing and saw his production skyrocket. They didn't, and even then, his on-ice impact was generational.

Winning is a habit that is produced through every single facet of organizational competence. Crosby started winning his cups not in the playoffs, but in the offseason. This is why his peers appraise him as one of the greatest players and leaders of all time, why GMs would line-up to draft him 1OA if given the choice over comparable players, and why hes won as much as he has. Sure, the rest of Pittsburgh as an organization had a big part in it, too - and no one can argue that Edmonton has been a shining star of organizational competence during McDavid's tenure, even when the team was winning. But Crosby was the one that set the tone and the one that translated that organizational competence into Stanley Cups.
Crosby's approach has always been "I will lift up the team", while McDavid seems to act like his less talented teammates should just not get in his way.

And people seem to retroactively give credit to the Penguins organization because of the success they've had with Crosby and Malkin. When Crosby was drafted the organization was a disaster and well behind modern times.
 
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