Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[pi314]

The same cast of deluded haters in every Crosby thread.

Living rent free in their heads for 20 years.

 

[GreatGonzo]

The same cast of deluded haters in every Crosby thread.

Living rent free in their heads for 20 years.

And yet, here you are

I wish they had clown emojis, would have been perfect for you. You should post that player poll again about Crosby being the most “complete player.” It’s been awhile for you.

 

[wetcoast]

You can build a clip like this for just about everyone that's played enough. I've seen Daniel Sprong bust his ass on a backcheck. That doesn't mean he's a good defensive player. Defense is showing up every game, every shift, every time up and down the ice.

Man the part in bold is just so ridiculous maybe just stop and think about what an offensive player has to be doing then.

What Wayne Gretzky had zero points on e game, didn't set up a scoring chance, clearly not a great offensive player eh.

Well with that bar no one has ever been good defensively it would seem.

Also being a good defensive (or 200 foot) player is relative to top scoring players year in year out and specifically here in comparison to McDavid.

But I get this Crosby guy is so rent free in your head that you can't watch players clips and then spout off complete garbage that NHL players, GM's , coaches media writers who vote on awards contest but then again some people thing the sun rises in the west too right?

 

[Outl4w]

No it wasn’t. Stop trying to rewrite history. He literally came into a high flying league for a few years and then scoring dropped. Had nothing to do with being more physical or a “clutch and grab” style of play. Crosby didn’t come up in this rugged era.

McDavid highest years scoring 23 and 24

23

24

Crosby best seasons06- 07 and 09-10

You can't deny scoring is up and Crosby won two cups. I am not a fan of either team or play per say and both are amazing first ball HOF players.

 

[norrisnick]

That's a fair point MAF in 2009 is somewhat better than Skinner who isn't horrible all of the time though.

That being said take away McDrai and CroMalkin from both teams and there is a huge difference and the Oilers are tons better than 09 Pens and frankly I think they would have won the sC had Drai been healthy this year.

But the poster you were quoting has a great post and winning isn't solely about talent and scoring points either.

This came up in the Crosby/Jagr better all time thread and most GMs would have taken Crosby over Jagr in a draft for teambuilding winning the SC and I think Crosby would tip the scales here too.

But I wonder how the Big 3 in this thread treat someone like say Matthews in player rating and his playoff resume and if they are consistent?

On second thought no I don't wonder at all.

Wait what? I thought all this time the Oilers didn't win because McDavid wasn't clutch and/or a leader? The health of teammates matters all of a sudden?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Man the part in bold is just so ridiculous maybe just stop and think about what an offensive player has to be doing then.

What Wayne Gretzky had zero points on e game, didn't set up a scoring chance, clearly not a great offensive player eh.

Well with that bar no one has ever been good defensively it would seem.

Also being a good defensive (or 200 foot) player is relative to top scoring players year in year out and specifically here in comparison to McDavid.

But I get this Crosby guy is so rent free in your head that you can't watch players clips and then spout off complete garbage that NHL players, GM's , coaches media writers who vote on awards contest but then again some people thing the sun rises in the west too right?

McDavid was voted 2nd hardest player to face in the defensive end. Sounds like he has some defensive awareness himself..

McDavid highest years scoring 23 and 24
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24
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Crosby best seasons06- 07 and 09-10
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You can't deny scoring is up and Crosby won two cups. I am not a fan of either team or play per se and both are amazing first ball HOF players.

Never denied that scoring is higher. I put to rest the idea that scoring was lower BECAUSE of more physicality and more of a “clutch and grab” style of play. That’s not true at all. That’s just another revision of history to make Crosbys era appear superior to McDavids.

The GPG average from ‘06-‘10 wasn’t much different than from ‘16-‘20. I would argue that they saw more PPs from ‘06-‘10 though.

 

[norrisnick]

Man the part in bold is just so ridiculous maybe just stop and think about what an offensive player has to be doing then.

What Wayne Gretzky had zero points on e game, didn't set up a scoring chance, clearly not a great offensive player eh.

Well with that bar no one has ever been good defensively it would seem.

Also being a good defensive (or 200 foot) player is relative to top scoring players year in year out and specifically here in comparison to McDavid.

But I get this Crosby guy is so rent free in your head that you can't watch players clips and then spout off complete garbage that NHL players, GM's , coaches media writers who vote on awards contest but then again some people thing the sun rises in the west too right?

If you kids are gonna hotswap accounts you might want to clear out your copy/pastes. It's like the glitching cat in the matrix in here...

 

[wetcoast]

It has everything to do with whether or not the games were meaningful, or if his points were meaningful. Unless your suggesting they keep records for “meaningless” games…

Sorry if the raw totals hurt your argument and throw you off. Sounds like a personal problem…

So you are going to ignore the multiple posters that said prime Crosby would have taken this version of the oilers to a cup win, all while McDavid couldn’t do it? Ok sounds about right for you…please tell me more how “ironic” that is…

No I didn't ignore it and think that this post had something to say on the subject.

This point is one of the most salient to me, and I've never really been able to get it out of my head when watching McDavid's career unfold. It's not as if playing with Draisaitl is just some trivial, harmless difference in deployment that benefits his production with no real trade-off; we've seen, time and time again, this strategy come to bite them in the playoffs. IMHO, it's the reason why they lost against Florida. They were utterly gassed in that final game - some would applaud them for giving it everything they had, but that's the same individualist mindset that both praises their gaudy point totals, and unreasonably expects and asks them to win on their own.

I think the reason the Oilers generally seem to be so ineffective with spreading talent through their lineup is because of a lack of commitment to that approach. Expectations are set early on and throughout a season, and throughout McDavid's career, the expectation set is always one of "if the rest of you guys cant produce, we'll just spend the 3rd period playing McDavid and Draisaitl for 50% of it to bail us out, so don't worry about it. This is a very "give a man a fish" mode of leadership - if you f*** up, I'll take over and handle it.

In my experience, this is not a particularly effective long-term strategy for team-building and performance. The rest of the team gets complacent, and the guy they overly-rely upon gets burnt out and beat up - in hockey terms, that means exhausted or injured. When guys feel like excellence is demanded of them, and they have to rise to the occassion to live up to the standard set by Crosby and Malkin if they want the team to win next time they step on the ice, what you see is the superior depth-scoring performance that Pittsburgh has had that Edmonton lacks.

What Crosby - and Malkin - did, was not just to "make their teammates better" in terms of applied stats and on-ice play with them on their wing: what Crosby in particular was instrumental in doing was setting the cultural expectation and attitude that Pittsburgh was a team that had to win like a team. Everything from his otherworldly offseason training and conditioning, his on-ice and in-locker room leadership, and, especially - his performance as an exceptional player, clearly communicated to every single player on the roster what was expected of them and what was demanded of them in order to win.

If you want a reson for Pittsburgh being, indisputably, the most consistent team at winning and making the playoffs over the era, despite their massive generational turnover in roster personnel (including between cups nearly a decade apart), this is it. It's San Antonio Spurs-esque. The Spurs never had the most consistently dominant individual scoring, and that's not because guys like Duncan were incapable of being individually dominant. It's not even necessarily because they "traded offense for defense" in some transactional way. It's because players like Duncan and Crosby have routinely passed up opportunities to score more. At any time, they could have shoved the absolute best linemates (in this case, Malkin etc.) onto Crosby's wing and saw his production skyrocket. They didn't, and even then, his on-ice impact was generational.

Winning is a habit that is produced through every single facet of organizational competence. Crosby started winning his cups not in the playoffs, but in the offseason. This is why his peers appraise him as one of the greatest players and leaders of all time, why GMs would line-up to draft him 1OA if given the choice over comparable players, and why hes won as much as he has. Sure, the rest of Pittsburgh as an organization had a big part in it, too - and no one can argue that Edmonton has been a shining star of organizational competence during McDavid's tenure, even when the team was winning. But Crosby was the one that set the tone and the one that translated that organizational competence into Stanley Cups.

Also I'm not the absolutist that you have been on the subject of stats ect so the onus isn't on me. I can and am willing to reasonably project things out in my logic and hockey thinking and POV.

You saying anything about mental gymnastics is like the pot calling the kettle black.

Hopefully you will get the attention you seek from fellow travellers.

You have no room to say anything.

Yet here I am open-minded and fair here.

If you kids are gonna hotswap accounts you might want to clear out your copy/pastes. It's like the glitching cat in the matrix in here...

This is an open channel here continue your prvt discussion with Bozo the clown.

 

[GreatGonzo]

No I didn't ignore it and think that this post had something to say on the subject.





Also I'm not the absolutist that you have been on the subject of stats ect so the onus isn't on me. I can and am willing to reasonably project things out in my logic and hockey thinking and POV.








Hopefully you will get the attention you seek from fellow travellers.



Yet here I am open-minded and fair here.


This is an open channel here continue your prvt discussion with Bozo the clown.

Then why did you call my post ironic? You saw what I was referring to and you attack me for it? How does that make sense?

“Opened minded and fair.” Well, I’m convinced…I apologize, I had you all wrong.

 

[wetcoast]

Yzerman was panned as a lousy leader you couldn't win with for 14 years. Then he won. Because the team around him was finally good enough to win. And he magically became the gold standard of leadership.

It wasn't just that Yzerman scored points in the playoffs and sometimes he and his team vastly under performed in in 88-89 when they lost to the Black Hawks and Yzerman had a good offensive line of 6-5-5-10 but was -7 for the series against a team that had a .432 winning %.

Sure the team got better but Scotty Bowman also got Yzerman to commit to the program.

Nothing about his approach to the game changed. All he ever did from his first game to his last was bust his ass and do whatever it was his coaches told him to do.

Nothing really?

I'm sure many Detroit fans and even non detroit players saw and can explain the difference in his approach.

Just for starters it was clear that he didn't shoot as much right?

Fans have no concept of who is or isn't a leader. It's ad hoc nonsense tossed at winners because fans have no other way of trying to explain why this guy won but this guy didn't. Obviously it's some innate quality. It's silly.

I guess all those players who talk about leadership should defer to your opinion then eh?

That being said I think the leadership thing can be overstated but to dismiss is entirely here seems I dunno.......... condescending comes to mind.

 

[Outl4w]

McDavid was voted 2nd hardest player to face in the defensive end. Sounds like he has some defensive awareness himself..


Never denied that scoring is higher. I put to rest the idea that scoring was lower BECAUSE of more physicality and more of a “clutch and grab” style of play. That’s not true at all. That’s just another revision of history to make Crosbys era appear superior to McDavids.

The GPG average from ‘06-‘10 wasn’t much different than from ‘16-‘20. I would argue that they saw more PPs from ‘06-‘10 though.

Did i ever say he wasn't good defensively? There was definitely higher powerplay goals and goals scored during McDavid's prime it isn't even a question. Both are great players and neither is in a tier different than the others. If you notice when crosby led the league with 120 points no one else was scoring 120 points.

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

If youre easily fooled by statistics then maybe youd think McDavid is even on Crosby's tier, let alone above it

Crosby is successful in every aspect - McDavid isnt even close

 

[wetcoast]

McDavid was voted 2nd hardest player to face in the defensive end. Sounds like he has some defensive awareness himself..

Source and maybe the question was what defenders said in their end maybe?

There is little debate about which player has been the better 200 foot player.....

Never denied that scoring is higher. I put to rest the idea that scoring was lower BECAUSE of more physicality and more of a “clutch and grab” style of play. That’s not true at all. That’s just another revision of history to make Crosbys era appear superior to McDavids.

The GPG average from ‘06-‘10 wasn’t much different than from ‘16-‘20. I would argue that they saw more PPs from ‘06-‘10 though.

Then why did you call my post ironic? You saw what I was referring to and you attack me for it? How does that make sense?

Honestly if you don't know then I dunno what to say.

“Opened minded and fair.” Well, I’m convinced…I apologize, I had you all wrong.

Finally some progress eh.

 

[norrisnick]

It wasn't just that Yzerman scored points in the playoffs and sometimes he and his team vastly under performed in in 88-89 when they lost to the Black Hawks and Yzerman had a good offensive line of 6-5-5-10 but was -7 for the series against a team that had a .432 winning %.

Sure the team got better but Scotty Bowman also got Yzerman to commit to the program.

Nothing really?

I'm sure many Detroit fans and even non detroit players saw and can explain the difference in his approach.

Just for starters it was clear that he didn't shoot as much right?

I guess all those players who talk about leadership should defer to your opinion then eh?

That being said I think the leadership thing can be overstated but to dismiss is entirely here seems I dunno.......... condescending comes to mind.

Yzerman was always committed to the program. The program didn't change to clamp the shit down until the '96-'97 season.

Again, Yzerman's approach to the game never changed. He busted his ass and did what the coaches asked him to do. It might have looked different on the ice, but again, that's because the overall philosophy from the coaching staff changed. The whole team dramatically changed styles. It wasn't because Yzerman finally listened to the coaches. It's because the coaches were saying different things.

I specifically was talking about fans' discussion leadership, not players. And yes, fans spouting off on who is or isn't a leader is very condescending.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It wasn't just that Yzerman scored points in the playoffs and sometimes he and his team vastly under performed in in 88-89 when they lost to the Black Hawks and Yzerman had a good offensive line of 6-5-5-10 but was -7 for the series against a team that had a .432 winning %.

Sure the team got better but Scotty Bowman also got Yzerman to commit to the program.





Nothing really?

I'm sure many Detroit fans and even non detroit players saw and can explain the difference in his approach.

Just for starters it was clear that he didn't shoot as much right?

I guess all those players who talk about leadership should defer to your opinion then eh?

That being said I think the leadership thing can be overstated but to dismiss is entirely here seems I dunno.......... condescending comes to mind.

You’d re forgetting that by this point Yzerman was passing his offensive prime. He was nearing 30 and he didn’t win his first cup until he was 31. He was no longer asked or needed to carry the team offensively while having more than enough support defensively.

You ever notice how the greatest “leaders” happened to play on some of the greatest teams? Not that those two would ever correlate…

Did i ever say he wasn't good defensively? There was definitely higher powerplay goals and goals scored during McDavid's prime it isn't even a question. Both are great players and neither is in a tier different than the others. If you notice when crosby led the league with 120 points no one else was scoring 120 points.

that wasn’t quoted for you.

I disagree. Pretty sure Crosbys first 5 years had more PPO and PPP scored…

2006-2009 had some of the highest on average PPs in league history while also seeing the most PPO

Well no one has been scoring 150 points lately either.

If youre easily fooled by statistics then maybe youd think McDavid is even on Crosby's tier, let alone above it

Crosby is successful in every aspect - McDavid isnt even close

Not even close? Really?…

 

[Frank Drebin]

14 minute back checking video, I’ll be sure to show that to my grandchildren

Will help explain things

 

[GreatGonzo]

Source and maybe the question was what defenders said in their end maybe?

There is little debate about which player has been the better 200 foot player.....




Honestly if you don't know then I dunno what to say.

Finally some progress eh.

NHLPA Player Poll 2023-24

The players gave their takes on the NHL's hottest topics.

www.nhlpa.com

“Which player is the most difficult player to face in their own end?”​

Really? Interesting….

So you can’t explain it basically just say that.

 

[Video Nasty]

He won a few Harts too, part of the reason was likely production part of that was likely other stuff incl intangibles ie leadership etc. lmao

He won two. Will the exaggerations never end?

 

[Outl4w]

These guys are in a tier right below Gretzky and Lemieux
GOATS Gretzky and Lemieux. Imagine them with modern day equiptment, coaching, and training. This rankings are just my opinion based on players I have seen in my lifetime and watched highlights off. I am in my late thirties. I am not claiming my opinion is absolute fact, but just my point of view.
Top 10 GOATS of all times
1a/b Gretzky and Lemieux
2a/2b Crosby/McDavid
3a/b Orr and Lidstrom
4a/4b Gordie and Mark
5a/5b Coffee and Borque
6a/6b Yzerman and Sackic
7a/7B Forsberg and Lindros
8a/8b Esposito and Howe
9a/9b Lafleur/Beliveau
10a/10b Richard Rocket and Brodeur
There are lot sof young hall of famers in the nhl currently, but no one outside of McDAvid has shown a top 10 status yet.

 

[pi314]

14 minute back checking video, I’ll be sure to show that to my grandchildren

Will help explain things

You can hang it right next to your 2042 Oilers Cup banner.

 

[Frank Drebin]

You can hang it right next to your 2042 Oilers Cup banner.

That’s a long time between Stanley cups

That would be 52 years

I wonder if Pittsburgh will be relevant between now and then

 

[Frank Drebin]

These guys are in a tier right below Gretzky and Lemieux
GOATS Gretzky and Lemieux. Imagine them with modern day equiptment, coaching, and training. This rankings are just my opinion based on players I have seen in my lifetime and watched highlights off. I am in my late thirties. I am not claiming my opinion is absolute fact, but just my point of view.
Top 10 GOATS of all times
1a/b Gretzky and Lemieux
2a/2b Crosby/McDavid
3a/b Orr and Lidstrom
4a/4b Gordie and Mark
5a/5b Coffee and Borque
6a/6b Yzerman and Sackic
7a/7B Forsberg and Lindros
8a/8b Esposito and Howe
9a/9b Lafleur/Beliveau
10a/10b Richard Rocket and Brodeur
There are lot sof young hall of famers in the nhl currently, but no one outside of McDAvid has shown a top 10 status yet.

How can you have Crosby mcdavid over bobby orr lmao

 

[pi314]

That’s a long time between Stanley cups

That would be 52 years

I wonder if Pittsburgh will be relevant between now and then

You’re so sure of the future.

Bet you know tomorrow’s lottery numbers too.

But as of right now today your guy has exactly zero cups.

None. Zilch. Nada.

 

[Outl4w]

How can you have Crosby mcdavid over bobby orr lmao

Just my opinion sir. Orr was insane, but didn't have the longevity to dominate for a decade.

 

[Frank Drebin]

You’re so sure of the future.

Bet you know tomorrow’s lottery numbers too.

But as of right now today your guy has exactly zero cups.

None. Zilch. Nada.

This doesn’t really bother me as much as you hope it does

I’ve been fortunate to be able to watch the best player since Mario Lemieux suit up for my home team for the last 9 seasons

We were gifted him and if we can’t build a proper team around him so be it. Won’t change his legacy any more than a 14 minute back checking video

I’ll still enjoy watching him dominate the regular season and playoffs in a way penguins fans haven’t seen since the early 90s

And I’m fully aware that if/once he leaves the oilers will never have another contender in my lifetime.

Just blessed to be able to enjoy this extraordinary player rather than sulking in the corner trying to trick myself into thinking my guy was actually better

And when the next one comes along I won’t be like these childish pens fans. I’ll enjoy and embrace that player and will spend zero time trying to convince myself that he’s not better than mcdavid