Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[GreatGonzo]

I don’t need to hate on other great players to propel my favorite players (like some posters here love to do), as they (my players) will be forever remembered as people who dominated their sport for more than a decade, while winning every single important accolade, more than once.

Despite the contrary belief of some, I wish McDavid wins his cup as it would be a shame to see someone that great, not be able to lift the big trophy. Nevertheless, I’m not going to give McDavid a free pass for not winning if that ends up being the case, and neither will people who played sports, watched sports and want their rankings to be considered objective.

Theres “giving a free pass” and then there’s looking for every and any way to suggest his post season wasn’t dominant, impactful, or lacked any sort of leadership and “want” to win.

I mean, you said it yourself. “It’s not a race to 40 points…it’s about winning.” As if McDavids 40 points didn’t directly result in wins for his team.

 

[PainForShane]

In terms of Legacy, sure. But to say Crosby is simply the better player because he has won a cup and McDavid hasn’t is lazy. A cup would add to anyone’s legacy and I’m not saying he doesn’t need one, but he isn’t below Crosby because of cups alone.

That’s not true at all. Bourque and Hasek were a consesus top 2-3 in their position before they won their cups. The cups they won simply added to their legacy, but no one was giving them grief for not winning a cup with those Boston and especially those Buffalo teams..

That’s interesting. I don’t recall Crosbys playoff runs being more dominant than other players(his own teammates). I could argue McDavids 153 point season and 42 point post season as moe dominant than anything Crosby has done..

No one is saying that. How is it possible that anyone can be this confused.

Theres “giving a free pass” and then there’s looking for every and any way to suggest his post season wasn’t dominant, impactful, or lacked any sort of leadership and “want” to win.

I mean, you said it yourself. “It’s not a race to 40 points…it’s about winning.” As if McDavids 40 points didn’t directly result in wins for his team.

In this year's Stanley Cup Finals? It was not enough. Some points in game 7 probably would've gone quite a long ways in helping them win a series, no?

And also, McDavid didn't win the cup in 2024. So if it's about winning... he didn't win. Not sure what you're arguing and pretty sure you don't know either.

 

[GreatGonzo]

No one is saying that. How is it possible that anyone can be this confused

I thought you had to “work.”

No one is saying that. How is it possible that anyone can be this confused.



In this year's Stanley Cup Finals? It was not enough. Some points in game 7 probably would've helped, no?

11 points in the finals… almost like he needed more people to score or something….you know, like what Crosby had….

Remind me, what were Crosbys numbers in game 7 in ‘09. Better yet….what were his numbers in game 5 and 6 too….

 

[pi314]

I don't subscribe to the notion of using "most people" as a voice of authority.

They really aren't, but do go on.

Crosby was wholly absent defensively early in his career, in his elder years he's gotten just about as bad again. There was a brief lull of mediocrity in the middle of his career, but beyond that... it's an invented narrative that holds no merit.

Every time you post your nonsense and drivel…

…I’m going to reply with this.

Sidney Crosby Voted 'Most Complete Player' in NHLPA Player Poll | Pittsburgh Penguins.

“Crosby was named “the most complete player” on 38.37% of ballots. Of the 589 players who voted on this question, 226 chose the Pittsburgh captain.“

Being complete includes being able to play defense.

 

[PainForShane]

I thought you had to “work.”

11 points in the finals… almost like he needed more people to score or something….you know, like what Crosby had….

Remind me, what were Crosbys numbers in game 7 in ‘09. Better yet….what were his numbers in game 5 and 6 too….

I did. I'll get back to it soon. It looks like you don't work.

I am not surprised.

And again, you are pretending not to know what 'meaningful games' are. Even though we went over this a few hours ago, complete with your actively incompetent use of dictionary.com wrt what 'in doubt' actually means.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Every time you post your nonsense and drivel…

…I’m going to reply with this.

Sidney Crosby Voted 'Most Complete Player' in NHLPA Player Poll | Pittsburgh Penguins.

“Crosby was named “the most complete player” on 38.37% of ballots. Of the 589 players who voted on this question, 226 chose the Pittsburgh captain.“

Being complete includes being able to play defense.

Damn you are really clinging on to that for dear life, aren’t you

“THIS SAYS EVERYTHING I NEED TO SAY AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN SAY TO DISPUTE IT!!”

Show his defensive metrics this year…

Also, McDavid was voted second behind Hedman for “Which player is the most difficult player to face in their own end?”

That implies that he knows defense, right?….

I did. I'll get back to it soon. It looks like you don't work.

I am not surprised.

And again, you are pretending not to know what 'meaningful games' are. Even though we went over this a few hours ago, complete with your actively incompetent use of dictionary.com wrt what 'in doubt' actually means.

So were games 5-7 in ‘09 meaningful or not? Again…simply yes/no would do just fine.

 

[PainForShane]

Damn you are really clinging on to that for dear life, aren’t you

“THIS SAYS EVERYTHING I NEED TO SAY AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN SAY TO DISPUTE IT!!”

Show his defensive metrics this year…

Also, McDavid was voted second behind Hedman for “Which player is the most difficult player to face in their own end?”

That implies that he knows defense, right?….


So were games 5-7 in ‘09 meaningful or not? Again…simply yes/no would do just fine.

You mean for Pitt in 09? Yes they were. Because the series was 'in doubt' at the time (I know that is a hard definition for you to understand given the dishonest nonsense you went out of your way to misquote a few hours ago).

Again, if you understood the argument you wouldn't need to ask these dumb verification questions. Please continue doing you, this has become a thread for the ages.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You mean for Pitt in 09? Yes they were. Because the series was 'in doubt' at the time (I know that is a hard definition for you to understand given the dishonest nonsense you went out of your way to misquote a few hours ago).

Again, if you understood the argument you wouldn't need to ask these dumb verification questions. Please continue doing you, this has become a thread for the ages.

So in the meaningful games, Crosby didn’t do anything. What do you say about that?…

The series was tied 2-2 going into game 5….thats “in doubt?” But being down 0-3 isn’t….still having trouble on what they word means I see

It was actually a fair question given your stance. McDavids game 4 and 5 weren’t meaningful games…where as Crosbys game 5 and 6 were….and that makes sense to you for some reason

McDavid through games 4-5(both elimination games) 8 points m(NHL record)
Crosby through games 5 and 6(1 elimination game) 0 points….

One is “clutch.” The other is “underwhelming.”

 

[Frank Drebin]

I don't think Crosby would condone the hiring of human excrement like Connor does.

I guess that puts Sid "a tier above" as a person.

There have been some painful, desperate takes from the Crosby crowd but this one is by far the best of the best

 

[nowhereman]

I don't subscribe to the notion of using "most people" as a voice of authority.

They really aren't, but do go on.

Crosby was wholly absent defensively early in his career, in his elder years he's gotten just about as bad again. There was a brief lull of mediocrity in the middle of his career, but beyond that... it's an invented narrative that holds no merit.

"Most people" includes all of the HHOF players and coaches who've watched this guy play in every situation and have done nothing but compliment his all-around game. It's really only the same handful of posters, in literally every single Crosby thread, who have made it their life's work to push the "Crosby is terrible at defence" narrative. Now, should I take Scotty Bowman's opinion on the matter or some random guy on a message board?

 

[LokiDog]

It’s an interesting topic. I’ve read through most of the thread and seen compelling arguments on each page.

McDavid’s talent and production is clearly at least a half tier ahead, if not a full tier above. However, comparing McDavid and Crosby as “complete” players is like comparing Pastrnak and Bergeron - who is more valuable? Pasta is clearly the bigger producer and an x-factor to just crack a game open, but Bergeron’s contributions outside of his production make it a tight argument for me. Similarly, while Sid’s sheer talent and production may be one step down, I would very much be open to the idea that the remainder of his game closes the gap. Does McDavid still come out on top? Yes. Is Sid as good of a two-way player as Bergy? Obviously not. Is Pasta nearly as elite offensively as McD? Obviously not. The point is, if we look at production and Hart voting and such alone, would anyone not take Panarin over Barkov? If we actually polled GMs about starting a team to win Cups, would Panarin be selected over Barkov? Sid may be a tier below on pure skill and numbers, but it’s pretty damn close on overall impact.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Theres “giving a free pass” and then there’s looking for every and any way to suggest his post season wasn’t dominant, impactful, or lacked any sort of leadership and “want” to win.

I mean, you said it yourself. “It’s not a race to 40 points…it’s about winning.” As if McDavids 40 points didn’t directly result in wins for his team.

Look, I have not replied to any of your posts in this thread given;

1) Your lack of reading comprehension to basically every single message you’re replying too, since I’ve joined this forum. You keep implying things that people have never explicitly said. Your reasoning is horrendous.

2) You’ve been one of the most volatile Crosby hater since I’ve joined this forum. You’re also being very annoying by replying to everyone with sarcastic replies/not adding anything relevant to the discussion.

3) What is even your reason to hate on Crosby? You’re not a Flyers fan who got beaten down year after year by Crosby, you’re not a Caps fan who has to deal with the fact that Crosby > Ovechkin, you’re not a Detroit fan who is still mad about the handshake snub and mad that the Pens put their franchise into irrelevance. You’re also not an Oilers fan because you’ve been hating on Crosby before McDavid was even drafted. All of those people at least have a valid reason to hate on Crosby, which makes your addiction to drag down Crosby even more weird.

Choose your words wisely, as it will one of the last interactions I have with you until you change your style of posting.

 

[PainForShane]

So in the meaningful games, Crosby didn’t do anything. What do you say about that?…

The series was tied 2-2 going into game 5….thats “in doubt?” But being down 0-3 isn’t….still having trouble on what they word means I see

It was actually a fair question given your stance. McDavids game 4 and 5 weren’t meaningful games…where as Crosbys game 4 and 5 were….and that makes sense to you for some reason

Yes, the outcome of a 2-2 series is in doubt. Because either team might win. Same with a 2-0 series which is more relevant to this particular conversation. The outcome of a series where one team is down 0-3 is not in doubt. Because the team that's up 3-0 will win the overwhelming percentage of the time. Everyone knows this.



***

Regarding Edm in games 4 and 5, this year's SCF was basically already out of reach (3-0 or 3-1 respectively) so I believe the series was already basically lost. I'm far from the only one who believes this.

When the series became 3-2 and 3-3 (and the outcome of the games became relevant to the outcome of the series), McD's offensive contribution dried up. Regarding Sid's games 3 and 4 (in 09), the series was at 2-0 and 2-1 and still could've gone either way.

This is not a hard concept to understand. It seems like you are taking pride in not understanding yet another basic idea.

***

Please don't ever get a job Gonzo. Your posts, from what I've seen in this thread, are truly legendary.

 

[Frank Drebin]

It wouldn’t make him a better player, but he wouldn’t be worse. The major difference is that he would be “greater”. He would be seen as a winner and would probably be closer to Crosby on the all-time list too, if not ahead. McDavid will never be seen amongst the greatest (top 5) if he doesn’t win. It’s a precedent that has been set more than 100 years ago. It’s not going to change. I fully expect him to win one at some point, but he’ll never be seen as being greater than Crosby (who won a lot), if he doesn’t end up winning. It doesn’t matter how many individual trophies he wins, if he can’t get the big one, it’s going to be one big red flag in his resume. Like it or not, that’s how it’s going to be.

Bourque and Hasek got punished for not winning in their prime, with Boston and Buffalo respectively. They both have extremely good individual cases for the #5 spot, but instead, they were both seen outside the top 10 in the most recent consensus ranking on here. (Bourque was 10th, but will undeniably be surpassed by Crosby as the list was made in 2018). Also, I don’t even think there was a player who didn’t win the cup in the top 50, so that says a lot.

All the McDavid stans/Crosby haters can hope for is that the Oilers get more lucky in the next couple of seasons, because so far, McDavid has not been dominant enough vs his peers to be ranked above Crosby without winning the big one.

You have that backwards

It’s Crosby fans desperately hoping that mcdavid doesn’t win the cup because that is literally the only thing that Sid has accomplished that mcdavid has not, yet

Wait and see
At the end of mcdavids career the answer will be obvious

Mcdavid is the fourth most dominant player to play the game in the last 50 years and there is no one close

 

[PainForShane]

You have that backwards

It’s Crosby fans desperately hoping that mcdavid doesn’t win the cup because that is literally the only thing that Sid has accomplished that mcdavid has not, yet

Wait and see
At the end of mcdavids career the answer will be obvious

Mcdavid is the fourth most dominant player to play the game in the last 50 years and there is no one close

No, he doesn't have this backwards.

If you've followed this discussion (doubtful), not a single one of the Crosby defenders are hoping McDavid never wins the cup. How do you actually believe this nonsense.

And also by the way, prime Crosby was close to McDavid's regular season dominance. That's the whole point of what multiple ppl have been defending over the past few days, some people (incl Nadal on Clay) have put together in depth arguments (w context) that are pretty persuasive, esp since no one arguing for McDavid has put together anything remotely similar. At least not in good faith.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yes, the outcome of a 2-2 series is in doubt. Because either team might win. Same with a 2-0 series which is more relevant to this particular conversation. The outcome of a series where one team is down 0-3 is not in doubt. Because the team that's up 3-0 will win the overwhelming percentage of the time. Everyone knows this.



***

Regarding Edm in games 4 and 5, this year's SCF was basically already out of reach (3-0 or 3-1 respectively) so I believe the series was already basically lost. I'm far from the only one who believes this.

When the series became 3-2 and 3-3 (and the outcome of the games became relevant to the outcome of the series), McD's offensive contribution dried up. Regarding Sid's games 3 and 4 (in 09), the series was at 2-0 and 2-1 and still could've gone either way.

This is not a hard concept to understand. It seems like you are taking pride in not understanding yet another basic idea.

***

Please don't ever get a job Gonzo. Your posts, from what I've seen in this thread, are truly legendary.

I was hoping to see an answer to this question?
Remind me, what were Crosbys numbers in game 7 in ‘09. Better yet….what were his numbers in game 5 and 6 too….

Your reply was about work, and something else, but skipped the above,
Is that not a dodge and weave, like I said before.

 

[Felidae]

No he isn't. Crosby at his peak was always a top 2 offensive player and a top 5 defensive player. A beast along the wall. A dominant player in every regard. McDavid is the best offensive player in the game. He's decent in board battles but has been awful defensively before this season and was still below average this season. It's really not close.

Crosby only started finishing top 10 in selke voting 2015 onwards. While he was still in his offensive prime with two top 3 point finishes, he was no longer the best offensive player in the league.

He also only has 1 selke finish in the top 5, and that season he finished 5th in points and PPG.


I'm all for giving Crosby credit for defensive play, but even just going by selke voting, unless you wanna argue it was unfavorable towards him (which would be a first..) he was never simultaneously a top 5 defensive player and top 2 offensive player.

And it's certainly debatable whether he was ever a top 5 defensive player to begin with.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I’m honestly curious why Crosby is even considered to have been a more dominant player than Jagr

 

[PainForShane]

I was hoping to see an answer to this question?
Remind me, what were Crosbys numbers in game 7 in ‘09. Better yet….what were his numbers in game 5 and 6 too….

Your reply was about work, and something else, but skipped the above,
Is that not a dodge and weave. like I said before.

My point is about impact in meaningful games.

In 09, Crosby provided some offense in meaningful games 3 and 4, ie where Detroit was up 2-0 and then 2-1. If Crosby doesn't play gm 4, the Pens don't win that game and they likely don't go on to win the series.

***

Meanwhile...

"Remind me, what were Crosby's McDavid's numbers in game 7 in '09 2024. Better yet... what were his numbers in any game where the series was close..."

Re: McDavid -- 1 assist on the opening goal of game 2. The other 4 games, nothing which legitimately impacted the series (arguably one of his two points in garbage time of gm 3 might have also been relevant, but I personally wouldn't take that argument).

No sane person would try to argue McDavid was as clutch as Sid (which is the larger argument here that it seems you are trying to poke holes in). What a clownish attempt at a 'gotcha' you just made. Exactly what I expected from you, you did not disappoint.

 

[Maliks PlusMinus]

I dislike crosby, dislike the penguins and might have a certain bias by seeing him more, but this pains me to say.

Crosby is one of those extremely rare players who is strong enough mentally to have a major positive effect on his teammates. He creates a sense of belief that they can and will win. He leads by example by doing all the small things which means that a Brooks Orpik or a Max Talbot or somehow or other a Tyler Kennedy can go with him to a degree. They can’t do all that he can do, but they can give that little extra, be that little better because he is around.
Bryan rust could be an ahl’er ffs.
Crosby is giving 100% every time in every situation and the least they can all do is match that.
The amount of Pens with very limited skill who have been elevated around this guy is ridiculous cos they’ve had ass wingers for years and years. I’m not talking about playing on a line with him and getting points I’m talking being in a locker room with him and getting elevated. That’s a special kind of leadership.

Stick Yamamoto with McDavid on his line and he’ll score some points, although he probably won’t back check properly.
Drop him back down the lineup and he’ll produce nothing.

I reeeeally don’t like Crosby. And in terms of offense he is way behind mcdavid. He’s not as incredible a player with the puck, he’s not as fun to watch, but he’s the man you want in your team. As a manager at work sometimes the best staff aren’t the ones who are individually most capable at the job, they’re the ones that are best for the team performance as a whole

 

[Felidae]

I’m honestly curious why Crosby is even considered to have been a more dominant player than Jagr

I think he's ranked ahead of Jagr mostly for consistency. He was elite right out of the gate while it took Jagr a few years to get going.

Crosby was also an art Ross threat by his 2nd season, while it took Jagr until his 4th season to become one.

That, and Crosby never had a stint as "bad" as Jagr's Washington Years.

 

[wetcoast]

Do you always feel a need to deflect from certain points in order to answer questions?

“Crosby doesn’t PK…”
“WELL ITS NOT LIKE DATSYUK DID!!”

The point was quite clear and that poster used that weak argument is a discredited thread a couple of years ago to somehow prove that Crosby was in his opinion one of the worst defensive forwards in the league.

Go watch the video I posted and you certainly have watched him enough to know that he plays a very strong 200 foot game in comparison to other top scoring players.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I think he's ranked ahead of Jagr mostly for consistency. He was elite right out of the gate while it took Jagr a few years to get going.

Crosby was also an art Ross threat by his 2nd season, while it took Jagr until his 4th season to become one.

That, and Crosby never had a stint as "bad" as Jagr's Washington Years.

Id be curious to see a thread comparing jagr vs these 2

4 consecutive art ross with an additional one in 1995, amazing longevity, a hart and three Lindsay is pretty darn tangible

 

[pi314]

I’m honestly curious why Crosby is even considered to have been a more dominant player than Jagr

Tell me you only watched highlights and read stats without telling me you only watched highlights and read stats.

 

[Felidae]

Id be curious to see a thread comparing jagr vs these 2

4 consecutive art ross with an additional one in 1995, amazing longevity, a hart and three Lindsay is pretty darn tangible

Jagr has lost pretty comfortably to Crosby in recent polls so I don't think he'd do better against McDavid.

That being said, I think it would be a fun comparison.