Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[wetcoast]

I agree, but the 1st player is a phenom/generational talent and the 2nd player is Joe Sakic.

You mean Joe Sakic overall or his last 10 years not including the last 15 game sample?

If McDavid puts up, say, 2 more Rosses, 2 more Harts, 700 goals/2000 points for his career and a Cup he probably supplants Howe or Mario in the top 4. He is still very capable of it, but at this point he's committed to have to do it in Edmonton.

I think McDavid will get 2 more art Ross trophies and 2 more Harts and 2000 points is possible 700 goals I'm not so sure and even without a SC he can rank in the top 5 easily when it's all said and done.

 

[Video Nasty]

You’re trying to put him above Crosby, not Gretzky.

You, with Crosby.

Yeah, it was always about scoring. I said 3rd in scoring, an objective measurement.

I’m not caught. McDavid just hasn’t shown to be as dominant as Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr. And he looks a lot more like Howe, so he better compile.

Don’t make me go Umbridge on you. These are lies. Go back and revisit what you wrote.

Point 1. He’s above Crosby.

Points 2 and 3. You brought up Gretzky and mentioned when did he ever finish third in Hart voting after a prime year. I quoted you and responded. Why pretend you didn’t say it?

If you can’t acknowledge you’re a liar, we’re done with this particular chain of the thread.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sounds more like excuses as to why Crosby couldn’t perform. Either way, if the rest of the team(especially Malkin) didn’t rally and keep it a competitive series, Crosby wouldn’t have any cup that year.

so Crosby only performs well with an elite winger?…

Crosby, like any player, produces better with at least one linemate who can create and or convert regularly when facing a stifling shutdown unit. Is this news?

 

[Gurglesons]

I agree, but the 1st player is a phenom/generational talent and the 2nd player is Joe Sakic.

If McDavid puts up, say, 2 more Rosses, 2 more Harts, 700 goals/2000 points for his career and a Cup he probably supplants Howe or Mario in the top 4. He is still very capable of it, but at this point he's committed to have to do it in Edmonton.

I don't see any way McDavid supplants Mario.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't see any way McDavid supplants Mario.

I'm just trying to be charitable. Idk, it's a little odd that the top 4 has been fixed for so long. In most other sports you expect the top guys to get supplanted eventually. Can't help but feel it's because they played in a higher scoring era with more pylon-tyoe players, where the gap between best and average was way higher.

Thinking about the kind of player who could ever supplant those guys is wild. Produces like McDavid or younger Crosby, won like Crosby?

 

[Nadal On Clay]

We are still yapping in here?

Obvious to anybody who has eyes.

McDavid clears sid easily already, and he's only 27 , crazy eh? Imagine in 5 years....so many words and write ups are being wasted in here , you hate to see it

I just think about how so many people truly hated Crosby in the first half of his career. They just refused to give him the respect, even after he had started earning it. That’s the only explanation I see for what’s going on here. Ten years from now I doubt this is a conversation, and I really respect Crosby. I’ve been watching since Gretzky days and as good as Crosby has been the only person I’ve ever seen who belongs in the Gretzky/Mario conversation is Mcdavid. He’s the best player I’ve seen since Mario. I don’t particularly like him, but there’s no doubt about it when I watch him play.

A lot of posters are only looking at this comparison on the surface. They are not realizing that when you actually crunch the numbers, Crosby could match McDavid’s dominance in the regular season with the games he was allowed to play, up until their first 9 seasons. It’s a shocker to a lot of people because Crosby isn’t as flashy as McDavid and simply missed a lot of games at key times in his career. When you are evaluating a player’s ability, like this poll is asking, this has to be taken into consideration.

McDavid is much, much closer to Crosby in terms of dominance vs peers, than he is to Lemieux.

 

[Video Nasty]

Thinking about the kind of player who could ever supplant those guys is wild. Produces like McDavid or younger Crosby, won like Crosby?

You’re talking about McDavid himself, who will likely complete the needed check marks by the time his career is over.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

You’re talking about McDavid himself, who will likely complete the needed check marks by the time his career is over.

Next year he's 28 and still no championship. Piggy backing a championship in your late 30s is different than leading your team to one.

He has a handful of chances left. Crosby had 3 cups before age 30.

 

[ChaosAgent]

You’re talking about McDavid himself, who will likely complete the needed check marks by the time his career is over.

700 Goals, 2000 points, and a Smythe in a Cup-winning effort and he probably gets it.
Maybe not from me, but people viscerally will look at the production during an era where goalies are huge and compare it to Lemieux and Howe's production when goalies were small. You can only discount for injuries so much. He could surpass Howe and Lemieux.

I was thinking about Orr as well but the +/- is so eye-popping. Bobby Orr Stats and News | NHL.com. You can't discount +582 in 657 games. That is .8 goals per game that your team is outscoring the opponent with you on the ice. It's such a bonkers ratio that Orr will always have an argument against any player including Gretzky.

 

[Video Nasty]

Next year he's 28 and still no championship. Piggy backing a championship in your late 30s is different than leading your team to one.

He has a handful of chances left. Crosby had 3 cups before age 30.

Seen too many athletes and followed sports for too long to be worried about this unless he’s 35+.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Seen too many athletes and followed sports for too long to be worried about this unless he’s 35+.

The problem is that now McDavid's committed to Edmonton.
None of the top 4 or Crosby had to go to their second team to win one.

If he asked out now he'd be reviled like Lebron was, but people would forget once he won. If he sticks it out much longer though he'll be seen as piggy-backing if he winds up in NYR or something at age 34.

 

[norrisnick]

The problem is that now McDavid's committed to Edmonton.
None of the top 4 or Crosby had to go to their second team to win one.

If he asked out now he'd be reviled like Lebron was, but people would forget once he won. If he sticks it out much longer though he'll be seen as piggy-backing if he winds up in NYR or something at age 34.

It's been devastating to Hasek and Bourque's legacies...

 

[ChaosAgent]

It's been devastating to Hasek and Bourque's legacies...

We're not talking about McDavid being a top 10 player or a top 25 player. We're talking about what it takes to make it to Mt. Rushmore.

Bourque is in an entirely different echelon than these guys to where it's not relevant IMO.

Your cat is adorable though so I'll give ya that.

 

[bleedgreen]

A lot of posters are only looking at this comparison on the surface. They are not realizing that when you actually crunch the numbers, Crosby could match McDavid’s dominance in the regular season with the games he was allowed to play, up until their first 9 seasons. It’s a shocker to a lot of people because Crosby isn’t as flashy as McDavid and simply missed a lot of games at key times in his career. When you are evaluating a player’s ability, like this poll is asking, this has to be taken into consideration.

McDavid is much, much closer to Crosby in terms of dominance vs peers, than he is to Lemieux.

Yeah…..I saw Crosby’s games. During the key times.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Next year he's 28 and still no championship. Piggy backing a championship in your late 30s is different than leading your team to one.

He has a handful of chances left. Crosby had 3 cups before age 30.

Oh now he has to win a cup before 30 lol

Tick tock

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Oh now he has to win a cup before 30 lol

Tick tock

Showing you can carry your team to a championship in your prime does mean something, unlike say if Iginla had won with the Penguins or Bruins.

 

[norrisnick]

We're not talking about McDavid being a top 10 player or a top 25 player. We're talking about what it takes to make it to Mt. Rushmore.

Bourque is in an entirely different echelon than these guys to where it's not relevant IMO.

Your cat is adorable though so I'll give ya that.

They're in the same tier of player that the eventual #5 is trying to elbow to the front of.

Centers don't magically get elevated a tier just for being centers.

Was. Unfortunately.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I agree, but the 1st player is a phenom/generational talent and the 2nd player is Joe Sakic.

If McDavid puts up, say, 2 more Rosses, 2 more Harts, 700 goals/2000 points for his career and a Cup he probably supplants Howe or Mario in the top 4. He is still very capable of it, but at this point he's committed to have to do it in Edmonton.

This is the thing. Mario has had his career supplanted on trophy and stat counting for awhile now. You have to look at his career with some context and nuance to realize he is the best hockey player to ever lace them up. McDavid has never shown to be as dominant as Mario. He could get 5,000 more points and play until he is 70. He just isn't on Gretzky/Mario/Orr level. Never will be. Maybe through compiling, iconic moments, and a Howe like career he could get compared to them.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Don’t make me go Umbridge on you. These are lies. Go back and revisit what you wrote.

Point 1. He’s above Crosby.

He is not.

Points 2 and 3. You brought up Gretzky and mentioned when did he ever finish third in Hart voting after a prime year. I quoted you and responded. Why pretend you didn’t say it?

Yeah, and I corrected it to scoring. Harping on a freudian slip making you feel like a big man right now?

If you can’t acknowledge you’re a liar, we’re done with this particular chain of the thread.

Get a grip man. We are just talking hockey.

 

[Video Nasty]

The problem is that now McDavid's committed to Edmonton.
None of the top 4 or Crosby had to go to their second team to win one.

If he asked out now he'd be reviled like Lebron was, but people would forget once he won. If he sticks it out much longer though he'll be seen as piggy-backing if he winds up in NYR or something at age 34.

LeBron was reviled because he miscalculated how the public would take his decision. Most would have wished him well when leaving, but hated the production that was put on, particularly since nothing like that had been seen before, and the “not one not two not etc” comments. He also had a sore loser mentality attached to him after losing to the Magic and Celtics in the playoffs in back to back postseasons and walking off the court before bowing out of Cleveland. McDavid doesn’t have any of these issues or labels.

Unless the guy has a catastrophic injury or dies, I firmly believe we’re discussing his second Conn Smythe win, paired with a Cup this time, just 11 months from now.

Any more individual hardware and perhaps upping his game one final time to the tune of 160 points, and the stragglers arguing that he’s not #5 are going to be dismissed and laughed at, as they deserve.

 

[tabness]

We are still yapping in here?

Obvious to anybody who has eyes.

McDavid clears sid easily already, and he's only 27 , crazy eh? Imagine in 5 years....so many words and write ups are being wasted in here , you hate to see it

I just think about how so many people truly hated Crosby in the first half of his career. They just refused to give him the respect, even after he had started earning it. That’s the only explanation I see for what’s going on here. Ten years from now I doubt this is a conversation, and I really respect Crosby. I’ve been watching since Gretzky days and as good as Crosby has been the only person I’ve ever seen who belongs in the Gretzky/Mario conversation is Mcdavid. He’s the best player I’ve seen since Mario. I don’t particularly like him, but there’s no doubt about it when I watch him play.

A lot of posters are only looking at this comparison on the surface. They are not realizing that when you actually crunch the numbers, Crosby could match McDavid’s dominance in the regular season with the games he was allowed to play, up until their first 9 seasons. It’s a shocker to a lot of people because Crosby isn’t as flashy as McDavid and simply missed a lot of games at key times in his career. When you are evaluating a player’s ability, like this poll is asking, this has to be taken into consideration.

McDavid is much, much closer to Crosby in terms of dominance vs peers, than he is to Lemieux.

I don't think either of those guys bought up stats at all, why make a statistical case lol? Some people may just prefer a player based on watching them play.

After all, McDavid had zero points when this dropped

 

[ChaosAgent]

LeBron was reviled because he miscalculated how the public would take his decision. Most would have wished him well when leaving, but hated the production that was put on, particularly since nothing like that had been seen before, and the “not one not two not etc” comments. He also had a sore loser mentality attached to him after losing to the Magic and Celtics in the playoffs in back to back postseasons and walking off the court before bowing out of Cleveland. McDavid doesn’t have any of these issues or labels.

Unless the guy has a catastrophic injury or dies, I firmly believe we’re discussing his second Conn Smythe win, paired with a Cup this time, just 11 months from now.

Any more individual hardware and perhaps upping his game one final time to the tune of 160 points, and the stragglers arguing that he’s not #5 are going to be dismissed and laughed at, as they deserve.

Hm, fair point. I thought McDavid was locked into Edmonton for a very long time and thus the only way he could leave would be forcing his way out. That would be seen very negatively. Now I see he's a free agent in 2 years and could head out and win multiple cups in another org while he's still in his prime (and almost assuredly the best player on the Cup winner).

I'll be curious to follow McDavid's contract discussions with Edmonton in the next year.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

LeBron was reviled because he miscalculated how the public would take his decision. Most would have wished him well when leaving, but hated the production that was put on, particularly since nothing like that had been seen before, and the “not one not two not etc” comments. He also had a sore loser mentality attached to him after losing to the Magic and Celtics in the playoffs in back to back postseasons and walking off the court before bowing out of Cleveland. McDavid doesn’t have any of these issues or labels.

Unless the guy has a catastrophic injury or dies, I firmly believe we’re discussing his second Conn Smythe win, paired with a Cup this time, just 11 months from now.

Any more individual hardware and perhaps upping his game one final time to the tune of 160 points, and the stragglers arguing that he’s not #5 are going to be dismissed and laughed at, as they deserve.

Dude, McDavid refused to come out for the Conn Smythe. That sure doesn't give off the appearance of a graceful loser.

 

[Video Nasty]

Dude, McDavid refused to come out for the Conn Smythe. That sure doesn't give off the appearance of a graceful loser.

That’s your wrong perception of it. If you were as fair as you claimed, you’d recognize the guy likely didn’t even know he was called out for it, because he was in the locker room being a leader after being out on the ice for much longer than necessary after the loss. After all, he spent multiple minutes leading the way congratulating the Panthers and then consoling his teammates. I analyzed the Giguère presentation and while I don’t care to go over it again, he was presented the award the second the handshakes were concluded.

It was an entirely different situation. What the hell else do you want him to do?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Showing you can carry your team to a championship in your prime does mean something, unlike say if Iginla had won with the Penguins or Bruins.

Carry? You mean like single handedly? Who has carried a team to a cup now a days? Crosby certainly never “carried” a team to a championship. Why suddenly does McDavid have to?