Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?


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Nadal On Clay

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13-14 wasn't nearly as dominant as you are portraying it here. Gap over 2nd place in raw points is the only gap over his peers that was particularly notable, and that was due to Malkin/Stamkos missing time rather than Crosby's season being that exceptional. Good year, but arguably not even Crosby's best season which may have been 09-10.
Crosby in 2014

Raw points gap
2nd: 17 points
5th: 22 points
10th: 25 points

PPG gap
2nd: 0,10 (8%)
5th: 0,22 (20%)
10th: 0,27 (26%)

McDavid in 2017

Raw points gap
2nd: 11 points
5th: 15 points
10th: 25 points

PPG gap
2nd: 0,03 (3%)
5th: 0,07 (6%)
10th: 0,23 (23%)

McDavid in 2022

Raw points gap
2nd: 7 points
5th: 15 points
10th: 26 points

PPG gap
2nd: 0,07 (5%)
5th: 0,14 (10%)
10th: 0,23 (18%)

Objectively speaking, Crosby’s 2014 season was more dominant (vs top peers) than any of McDavid’s full season Art-Ross wins other than his 153 pts season. Crosby’s 2010 season is definitely not his best full season if you don’t overrate goals vs overall production, especially when you consider his play vs peers.

DPE 2.0 proved that it was extremely hard to sustain a high level of play season after season, as proven by the down seasons of notable players like Malkin, Ovechkin, Kane and Stamkos during their prime years. The only constant? Crosby.
 
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Letsdothis

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Jun 19, 2024
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Crosby in 2014

Raw points gap
2nd: 17 points
5th: 22 points
10th: 25 points

PPG gap
2nd: 0,10 (8%)
5th: 0,22 (20%)
10th: 0,27 (26%)

McDavid in 2017

Raw points gap
2nd: 11 points
5th: 15 points
10th: 25 points

PPG gap
2nd: 0,03 (3%)
5th: 0,07 (6%)
10th: 0,23 (23%)

McDavid in 2022

Raw points gap
2nd: 7 points
5th: 15 points
10th: 26 points

PPG gap
2nd: 0,07 (5%)
5th: 0,14 (10%)
10th: 0,23 (18%)

Objectively speaking, Crosby’s 2014 season was more dominant (vs top peers) than any of McDavid’s full season Art-Ross wins other than his 153 pts season. Crosby’s 2010 season is definitely not his best full season if you don’t overrate goals vs overall production, especially when you consider his play vs peers.

DPE 2.0 proved that it was extremely hard to sustain a high level of play season after season, as proven by the down seasons of notable players like Malkin, Ovechkin, Kane and Stamkos during their prime years. The only constant? Crosby.
2017 and 2022 McDavid weren't particularly dominant Art Ross seasons though. They fall in the average range, while 2021 and 2023 were the two best seasons of the era. McDavid's 2024 may have been the 3rd best season of his career, arguably better than Crosby's 2014, but he had no hardware to show because of career years from Kuch/MacKinnon (and likely Matthews) all coinciding in an outlierish way.

In the surrounding years, Kane had a better season at least offensively in 15-16 and Malkin had undeniably a better season in 11-12. It was a worthy season but fell a little short of expectations compared to what people were expecting based on Crosby's play in 2010-13.
 
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wetcoast

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The reason has nothing to do with the SIMPLE fact that you can’t impact the game or help your team win if you aren’t playing. I’m not blaming him for not playing. I’m not saying it was HIS choice, but the fact is all we have is what we have and the rest is speculatio.

But he didn’t play those games, so using pace and adjusted to try to fill that void isn’t all that accurate. Way too many variables.

Not necessarily. Kocherov playing on a better team shouldnt be a knock against McDavid. You are also leaving out McDavids 1.58 PPG which is first in that time span by a pretty decent margin. Drai had the closest with 1.46. Crosby was at 1.20 and I believe Malkin was at 1.16. McDavid has also lead the playoffs in scoring twice, has a smythe, broke Gretzkys PO assist record, and now has the most points in a post season not named Gretzky and Lemieux.
Wait context actually matters?

How about being fair-minded and applying it equally or is that only reserved for certain players?

That's the problem here the smorgasbord and selective choosing of context depending on which player is being discussed.

I think that McDavid may eventually pass Crosby all time but he hasn't played those games yet.

But for each guy at the end of the 9 season mark there is no seperation or different tiers between these 2 players.

Disagree if you want but at least try to make a a fair argument about it but sadly some people are so afflicted by dislike for certain players that they apply selective criteria and are inconsistent and intrnagesent and downright condescending in doing so which doesn't make for a healthy discussion.
 
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MacMacandBarbie

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Dec 9, 2019
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Who is talking about him supplanting Gretzky? That’s a strawman in this argument, which is about if McDavid is in a tier above Crosby (he is).
Nobody? You tried to put him on the Gretzky tier of players, not me.
If McDavid needs to sweep all the awards for ten years in a row for you to even place him above Crosby, it’s a bad faith argument.
He shouldn't be losing awards in mostly healthy years in his prime for him to get above him on a 'dominant' argument. If he wants to continue compiling awards and points, then he can get in there the Howe way. But Orr and Lemieux got compared to Gretzky cause they were insanely dominant.
P.S. You’re wrong about Gretzky never finishing third in Hart voting in his prime after a dominant Hart win. Much like McDavid this past season (both age 27 season), injuries led to Gretzky finishing 3rd in Hart voting after winning the Hart, Art Ross, and Pearson the prior season.
What year? The only person I know to beat prime Gretzky in points was Lemieux, even with injuries.
 

PainForShane

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I hope McDavid gets his participation ribbon.

Winning is overrated.

Compiling points late in an 8-1 blowout is what it’s all about.


Next year we’ll have a Stanley point trophy and just appoint Kucherov admiral of hockey.

Love that Drebin and Gonzo laughed at this post. Can't even understand their own arguments at this point (or maybe they were just never able to the entire time). Meanwhile Video Nasty lists McDavid's trophy cabinet yet again, says McDavid is one Lindsey shy of Gretz and the very next post is like, "Who is comparing McDavid to Gretzky?" Lmao.

@DitchMarner you're right, this thread has entered legendary status. Thx for providing perspective
 

PainForShane

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There are lots of things I don't see relevance in with regards to the arguments presented. Mainly in things that didn't happen when comparing two players. I like to focus on the things that did happen.

Everyone here is focusing on the the things that did happen. Crosby missing some (or many) games in his prime has nothing to do with the tier of player he was / dominance he showed while he was on the ice (which he has been most of his career and what this discussion is about).

To me, one of the keys is that it doesn't seem like you're understanding the discussion that's happening around you. You clearly don't understand what the pace argument represents and how it's relevant to the topic of the thread. Imo that's probably the best place to start.

Good luck (or not) -- personally I don't really care either way, to me seeing the entire team McDavid continuously misrepresent arguments is becoming more amusing with time
 
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Video Nasty

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Nobody? You tried to put him on the Gretzky tier of players, not me.

He shouldn't be losing awards in mostly healthy years in his prime for him to get above him on a 'dominant' argument. If he wants to continue compiling awards and points, then he can get in there the Howe way. But Orr and Lemieux got compared to Gretzky cause they were insanely dominant.

What year? The only person I know to beat prime Gretzky in points was Lemieux, even with injuries.

This latest post of yours proves you’re grasping for straws and you’re not interested in a normal back and forth.

1. McDavid being in the process of remolding the Big Four into a new Big Five doesn’t mean that I’m trying to put him above Gretzky. You made that up.

2. Again, who is talking about “getting above him?”

3. I responded to your point about Gretzky never finishing 3rd in a Hart race in his prime. Now you’re twisting your own words when I pointed out how you’re wrong to pretend you were talking about the Art Ross race.

Just admit you were caught. It should be easy since none of this ultimately matters. If he continues on this course, McDavid will be ranked as high as second all-time when he retires and there’s nothing you can do about it.
 

pi314

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Winning is the only thing to judge players by. Thats why I think players like Anderson and Lowe are twice as good as Crosby.

Yes the predictable exaggeration to make an excuse for the lack of winning.

Are we really at the point where people seriously believe winning is not important?
 
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norrisnick

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Everyone here is focusing on the the things that did happen. Crosby missing some (or many) games in his prime has nothing to do with the tier of player he was / dominance he showed while he was on the ice (which he has been most of his career and what this discussion is about).

To me, one of the keys is that it doesn't seem like you're understanding the discussion that's happening around you. You clearly don't understand what the pace argument represents and how it's relevant to the topic of the thread. Imo that's probably the best place to start.

Good luck (or not) -- personally I don't really care either way, to me seeing the entire team McDavid continuously misrepresent arguments is becoming more amusing with time
I understand it fine. I don't agree with using made up game sheets to prop a guy up so if you squint real hard you don't see a difference between the two.

It wasn't a valid argument with Mario and Wayne and it isn't one now.
 

PainForShane

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I understand it fine. I don't agree with using made up game sheets to prop a guy up so if you squint real hard you don't see a difference between the two.

It wasn't a valid argument with Mario and Wayne and it isn't one now.

There's obviously a difference between the two. McDavid played the games, scored the points, which has led to him winning a higher number of prestigious individual trophies. No one is arguing the opposite.
 
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Nadal On Clay

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2017 and 2022 McDavid weren't particularly dominant Art Ross seasons though. They fall in the average range, while 2021 and 2023 were the two best seasons of the era. McDavid's 2024 may have been the 3rd best season of his career, arguably better than Crosby's 2014, but he had no hardware to show because of career years from Kuch/MacKinnon (and likely Matthews) all coinciding in an outlierish way.

In the surrounding years, Kane had a better season at least offensively in 15-16 and Malkin had undeniably a better season in 11-12. It was a worthy season but fell a little short of expectations compared to what people were expecting based on Crosby's play in 2010-13.
You seem to be ignoring the massive difference between scoring environments between Crosby’s 2014 and McDavid’s 2024 seasons. From the 2010-2011 season to the 2016-2017 season, there was five 100-point seasons. That is in a span of 6 seasons (if you remove the shortened season). By comparison, in 2023-2024, 9 guys surpassed the century mark. It’s a night and day difference. Also, finishing outside of the top 3 in the Hart voting is just simply not enough to be put amongst the better seasons of the century.

I honestly even have McDavid’s 2022 ahead of his 2024. The 2024-2025 season will really tell us whether the 2024 season was an outlier in terms of top end competition for McDavid with 3 other 120+ pts players, or if it becomes the new norm with how easy it is to score in the current NHL. The following seasons after 2014, until 2017, had really shown that Crosby’s season was not an anomaly after watching the dreadful 2014-2015 and realizing the scoring environment was almost at an all time low (which is why a multitude of changes were made later on to improve scoring).

Ironically, Malkin’s 2012 season and Kane’s 2016 season also figure at the top of the 21st century. They are joined by Jagr’s and Sakic’s 2001, Ovechkin’s 2008, Ovechkin’s 2010, Kucherov’s 2019, McDavid’s 2021 and McDavid’s 2023 among the top seasons in terms of dominance vs peers.
 
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norrisnick

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There's obviously a difference between the two. McDavid played the games, scored the points, which has led to him winning a higher number of prestigious individual trophies. No one is arguing the opposite.
Just arguing that actually doing it isn't any better than someone else not doing it but pretending that he could have and that's all that matters.
 

PainForShane

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Just arguing that actually doing it isn't any better than someone else not doing it but pretending that he could have and that's all that matters.

No one's arguing this man. That's what I meant in last point when I said that to me "it doesn't seem like you're understanding the discussion that's happening around you".

I suspect what may be happening is you're getting offended by viewpoints that are legitimate nonsense, but which also (from what I've seen in this thread at least) are viewpoints that literally no one is arguing. Like the statement you just said above.
 
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norrisnick

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No one's arguing this man. That's what I meant in last point when I said that to me "it doesn't seem like you're understanding the discussion that's happening around you".

I suspect what may be happening is you're getting offended by viewpoints that are legitimate nonsense, but which also (in this thread) are viewpoints that literally no one is arguing. Like the statement you just said above.
If those viewpoints weren't being argued, this thread would have died on page 1.
 

Volica

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It is really hard to judge different eras.
I will say, Crosby ages like a fine wine; and I don't think McDavid will do the same.
 
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PainForShane

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If those viewpoints weren't being argued, this thread would have died on page 1.

I don't really know how to respond to this.

Like I said last post, literally no one is arguing that the only thing that matters is that Crosby could've won more individual trophies had he not been injured. Which is how you summarized the Crosby team's argument 2 posts up (unironically as best as I can tell)
 
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Video Nasty

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It is really hard to judge different eras.
I will say, Crosby ages like a fine wine; and I don't think McDavid will do the same.

Crosby was speculated to not have much of a career left in 2012 and there were legitimate worries that he’d retire early. Ovechkin was expected to be figured out by now. Both were viewpoints I agreed with at the time.

Valuable lessons on what we can hope to expect for modern day players and longevity. Those calling for McDavid to lose his powers will likely be disappointed. Guess they forgot that Mike Gartner never lost his speed.
 
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Nadal On Clay

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The question I have is why do we make excuses for Crosby missing significant time, while simultaneously cooing over his 2013-2014 season when 4 of the top 6 players in PPG behind him missed significant time, which is the only reason that the gap in scoring is as large as it was at face value?

Malkin, Tavares, Stamkos, and Zetterberg missed 22, 23, 45, and 37 games respectively. The pace hounds would give them 96, 90, 87, 85 points if they played the 80 games Crosby did.

Coincidentally, the #3 and #7 PPG leaders played less games than Crosby as well, and would inch Getzlaf up to 90 and Hall up to 85 in 80 games.

Were it not for an unusual amount of missed games for each of the players directly behind him in PPG, that 19.5% turns into a still good, but more ordinary 8.3% and 8 point win over his teammate and a 15.6% win over the closest non-teammate, assuming they all played the 80 games Crosby did.

That’s of course ignoring what those injuries did to their overall play.

For instance, Malkin had 41 points in his first 32 games (34 Penguins games). According to the pace merchants, that’s good for 103 points in 80 games. He then missed 9 games. Came back and had 31 points in 28 games. Missed the final 11 games of the season.

The big one is Stamkos, who was coming off a run of 4 consecutive seasons where he was either 1st or 2nd in goals, was top 5 in points all four years, and was runner up in the Art Ross the previous two seasons. He was 1st in goals and points in 2013-2014 before going down with an injury that altered his trajectory forever. Where is the romanticism for him? Where are the projections that he could have rocked Crosby that very season?

If Crosby is given every pass in the world for injuries, pace, missed time, and gets as much credit as he does, the same courtesy should be extended to his peers when he was healthy and they were injured.
I think I have answered some of your questions in my latest posts, but one thing I find really interesting is the Stamkos shout out.

Stamkos from 2010 to 2013 was unequivocally Crosby’s top threat. He was absolutely the real deal and I feel like that version of him gets really underrated on here. That might be due to the lack of flashy 3 digit totals that other superstars achieved, which can be explained by playing in a lower scoring era. To me, that version of Stamkos was better than any version of MacKinnon in any 4 straight years we have seen so far.

With that being said, Stamkos’ main issue was his really putrid consistency from the first half of the season to the last half. In almost every season he’s played from 2010 to 2013, he had performed significantly better in one half, while being much less productive in the other:

2009-2010

39 pts in 41 GP - 0,95 PPG
56 pts in 41 GP - 1,37 PPG

2010-2011

56 pts in 41 GP - 1,37 PPG
35 pts in 41 GP - 0,85 PPG

2011-2012

47 pts in 41 GP - 1,15 PPG
50 pts in 41 GP - 1,22 PPG

2012-2013 (48 games)

35 pts in 24 GP - 1,46 PPG
22 pts in 24 GP - 0,92 PPG

2013-2014

23 pts in 17 GP - 1,35 PPG
17 pts in 20 GP - 0,85 PPG

So basically, every time Stamkos scored at a higher clip than 1,30 PPG during a half, he proceeded to struggle to even reach point-per-game production for the other half of a season. If we use the prior years data from the previous years, it’s unlikely that Stamkos could have maintained the same pace of 1,35 PPG for all of the 2013-2014 season.

The 2013-2014 season data might be a bit skewed because of his injury when coming back, but unlike Crosby, he wasn’t able to produce at the same rate as before, after he returned from his injury. As proven by his subsequent seasons, that leg injury prevented him from being one of the top players post 2005 lockout and potentially inserting himself as the 3rd best player after Crosby and Ovechkin (pre McDavid).

So in retrospect, Malkin was really the only one that could’ve given Crosby a run for the scoring title that year, even though him playing the 22 games he missed probably would’ve boasted Crosby’s numbers even more with his help on the powerplay, so the effect probably evens out.
 
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Video Nasty

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I think I have answered some of your questions in my latest posts, but one thing I find really interesting is the Stamkos shout out.

Stamkos from 2010 to 2013 was unequivocally Crosby’s top threat. He was absolutely the real deal and I feel like that version of him gets really underrated on here. That might be due to the lack of flashy 3 digit totals that other superstars achieved, which can be explained by playing in a lower scoring era. To me, that version of Stamkos was better than any version of MacKinnon in any 4 straight years we have seen so far.

With that being said, Stamkos’ main issue was his really putrid consistency from the first half of the season to the last half. In almost every season he’s played from 2010 to 2013, he had performed significantly better in one half, while being much less productive in the other:

2009-2010

39 pts in 41 GP - 0,95 PPG
56 pts in 41 GP - 1,37 PPG

2010-2011

56 pts in 41 GP - 1,37 PPG
35 pts in 41 GP - 0,85 PPG

2011-2012

47 pts in 41 GP - 1,15 PPG
50 pts in 41 GP - 1,22 PPG

2012-2013 (48 games)

35 pts in 24 GP - 1,46 PPG
22 pts in 24 GP - 0,92 PPG

2013-2014

23 pts in 17 GP - 1,35 PPG
17 pts in 20 GP - 0,85 PPG

So basically, every time Stamkos scored at a higher clip than 1,30 PPG during a half, he proceeded to struggle to even reach point-per-game production for the other half of a season. If we use the prior years data from the previous years, it’s unlikely that Stamkos could have maintained the same pace of 1,35 PPG for all of the 2013-2014 season.

The 2013-2014 season data might be a bit skewed because of his injury when coming back, but unlike Crosby, he wasn’t able to produce at the same rate as before, after he returned from his injury. As proven by his subsequent seasons, that leg injury prevented him from being one of the top players post 2005 lockout and potentially inserting himself as the 3rd best player after Crosby and Ovechkin (pre McDavid).

So in retrospect, Malkin was really the only one that could’ve given Crosby a run for the scoring title that year, even though him playing the 22 games he missed probably would’ve boasted Crosby’s numbers even more with his help on the powerplay, so the effect probably evens out.

Interesting. I didn’t know Stamkos had such uneven halves of each season prior to his big injury in 2013. I was only posing where the love was for what ifs like Stamkos, but I agree, based on your data, it’s unlikely he keeps the pace needed to unseat Crosby in 2013-2014.

Sometimes in these Crosby debates, my points get crossed up at times or lost in the shuffle. My goal isn’t to say that he wouldn’t have won the Art Ross he did in 2013-2014, but instead to take a little of the shine off the level of dominance, since so many players were injured, and I think it’s fair, since so much time is spent on the reverse in favor of Crosby. The 2013-2014 Art Ross is a legitimate win by him, of course. He played the games and gets the credit there.

Good post.
 
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wetcoast

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I'm not the one arguing that 99 games over the course of 3 seasons should carry the full weight of Hart/Ross/Pearson campaigns.
It's really only one season though 12-13 if he doesn't get injured even you would agree that he wins the Hart and art ross right?

Pretty much the same thing happens in 10-11 is one looks at it fair mindedly right?


One guy won 3 Harts, 5 Art Rosses. The other wouldn't get to that number even hypothetically, yet here we are.
Because it's only about counting trophies?
 
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