Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Golden_Jet]

Looking forward to reading your future high value contributions

Great then, at least I make valuable contributions,
You’d argue grass is orange, for days if it was a thread.

 

[PainForShane]

Great then, at least I make valuable contributions,
You’d argue grass is orange, for days if it was a thread.

Actually I wouldn't. Weird take.

Looking forward to more of your valuable contributions

 

[pi314]

List the Pens' top 6 wingers in '09 and remind everyone how "star studded" it was.

Meanwhile, there's a thread on the main boards talking about how the Oilers have the best forward group in the league.

And all these same turkeys agreeing with it.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Meanwhile, there's a thread on the main boards talking about how the Oilers have the best forward group in the league.

And all these same turkeys agreeing with it.

Nugent-Hopkins, Hyman, Skinner, and Arvidsson are no match for the awesome power of Kunitz, 39 year old Guerin, Talbot, and Fedotenko.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

It's not even as simple as both have points, arts, highlights and leadership.

Mcdavids dominance offensively needs to be taken in context, and Crosbys leadership is only a function of the great team he lead.

Crosby is the better player and he does make people around him better, he's also more clutch, for whatever it's worth. Mcdavid is amazing and has the longevity and durability if you want to argue this. His trophy case is also more impressive by design. I don't like to argue the last point when it comes to greatness. Lemieux, Orr, Crosby... I won't ignore the absolutely otherworldly things they have done because they have lacked luck.

Crosby isn't really clutch...his performances in the Stanley Cup Finals are rather poor

 

[Video Nasty]

Crosby isn't really clutch...his performances in the Stanley Cup Finals are rather poor

Only Crosby could get away with scoring a grand total of 2 goals in 19 SCF games and going pointless 10 times during Pittsburgh’s 3 Cup wins.

 

[Mrb1p]

Crosby isn't really clutch...his performances in the Stanley Cup Finals are rather poor

20 in 25 games is the highest totals and his ppg is the same as Kane and higher than Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

If you want to play this angle Mcdavid is behind Stone, Eichel and Kuznetsov in his own era.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Love that Drebin and Gonzo laughed at this post. Can't even understand their own arguments at this point (or maybe they were just never able to the entire time). Meanwhile Video Nasty lists McDavid's trophy cabinet yet again, says McDavid is one Lindsey shy of Gretz and the very next post is like, "Who is comparing McDavid to Gretzky?" Lmao.

@DitchMarner you're right, this thread has entered legendary status. Thx for providing perspective

and I love that you are still making posts that don’t contribute at all to the conversation, but instead feel a need to troll and be bothersome. You really can’t think of anything better to bring to the debate? Then again, that isn’t one of your strengths, hence the trolling.

Nugent-Hopkins, Hyman, Skinner, and Arvidsson are no match for the awesome power of Kunitz, 39 year old Guerin, Talbot, and Fedotenko.

Ironic since it was Talbot in game 7 that delivered Crosby his cup while Crosby barely played…

Remind me of how RNH, Hyman, Bouchard, and Drai all did in the finals…

20 in 25 games is the highest totals and his ppg is the same as Kane and higher than Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

If you want to play this angle Mcdavid is behind Stone, Eichel and Kuznetsov in his own era.

McDavid has the same amount of goals in the finals as Crosby does in 18 less games. Crosby is also 9 points ahead in 18 more games.

 

[Mrb1p]

and I love that you are still making posts that don’t contribute at all to the conversation, but instead feel a need to troll and be bothersome. You really can’t think of anything better to bring to the debate? Then again, that isn’t one of your strengths, hence the trolling.

Ironic since it was Talbot in game 7 that delivered Crosby his cup while Crosby barely played…

Remind me of how RNH, Hyman, Bouchard, and Drai all did in the finals…

McDavid has the same amount of goals in the finals as Crosby does in 18 less games. Crosby is also 9 points ahead in 18 more games.

Different era

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Ironic since it was Talbot in game 7 that delivered Crosby his cup while Crosby barely played…

Remind me of how RNH, Hyman, Bouchard, and Drai all did in the finals…

Yes, the Game 7 where he was injured. Which is why everyone considers Talbot the superior player - healthy and clutch over a tiny sample size.

Also better than RNH, Hyman, Bouchard, and Draisaitl apparently. Truly an HoFer.

 

[PainForShane]

Yes, the Game 7 where he was injured. Which is why everyone considers Talbot the superior player - healthy and clutch over a tiny sample size.

Also better than RNH, Hyman, Bouchard, and Draisaitl apparently. Truly an HoFer.

Well, apparently Crosby's wingers (ie incl Kunitz, Dupuis, Sheary etc) are also at least on the same tier as Drai (at least in terms of supporting Sid's / McDavid's point totals). Kessel also was but they forgot to remember he played on a different ES line (which became famous enough that the Primanti brothers would later name a sandwich after them).

On this general idea at least the McDavid trolls have been consistent

 

[Video Nasty]

McDavid has the same amount of goals in the finals as Crosby does in 18 less games. Crosby is also 9 points ahead in 18 more games.

Points only matter for Crosby when it comes to what he didn’t do in fantasy land scenarios. When real life played out and he underperformed in certain areas as an individual with his talent, they miraculously don’t matter any longer. Crosby is faultless because he was a childhood superhero for so many.

 

[PainForShane]

Points only matter for Crosby when it comes to what he didn’t do in fantasy land scenarios. When real life played out and he underperformed in certain areas as an individual with his talent, they miraculously don’t matter any longer. Crosby is faultless because he was a childhood superhero for so many.

Are you unintentionally talking about Connor's underperfomance in game 7? I don't think what you meant to be talking about. Maybe try applying your logic to both sides which is all anyone is asking for here.

You'll find Crosby was more clutch / likely more of a 200 foot player (ie likely difference maker) while McDavid puts up more points / is likely better offensively in general. Meaning they're in the same tier of player.

Put another way, pretending Crosby underperformed is legitimate nonsense, especially when McDavid actually DID underperform in arguably every meaningful game in this year's SCF. Seriously what kind of argument even is this. Do better

 

[Video Nasty]

Different era

The cop out answer for Crosby’s shortcomings. Different eras doesn’t suddenly turn 4 goals and 20 points in 25 SCF games into something resembling the 3 goals and 11 points McDavid already has in just 7 games. Different eras can’t explain Crosby sitting on the bench for the vast majority of Game 7 as his teammates won the game during the first Cup win.

 

[Video Nasty]

Are you unintentionally talking about Connor's underperfomance in game 7? I don't think what you meant to be talking about. Maybe try applying equal logic to both sides which is all anyone is asking for here.

You'll find Crosby was more clutch / likely more of a 200 foot player (ie likely difference maker) while McDavid puts up more points / is likely better offensively in general. Meaning they're in the same tier of player.

Pretending Crosby underperformed is legitimate nonsense, especially when McDavid actually DID underperform in meaningful games in this year's SCF. Seriously what kind of argument even is this. Do better

I watched Crosby exit Game 7 of his first Cup win early and thankfully, his team put in the work to make sure he wasn’t Cupless until 2016.

I watched McDavid do his part in Game 7 (and Game 6) and generate a bunch of high scoring chances that simply didn’t go the right way. It’s fine you and this crowd thought he was invisible. I actually watch the guy night in and night out.

Frankly, McDavid was a better defensive player and overall two way player in his first Finals than Crosby was in his first two appearances.

 

[crowfish]

The Crosby people: "points aren't everything"

The Crosby people when McDavid is pointless in games 6 & 7: "Points are everything!"

 

[GreatGonzo]

Different era

No

Yes, the Game 7 where he was injured. Which is why everyone considers Talbot the superior player - healthy and clutch over a tiny sample size.

Also better than RNH, Hyman, Bouchard, and Draisaitl apparently. Truly an HoFer.

A team can look better on paper, but when they don’t show up when it counts, it’s a moot point the amount of “talent” they have. Crosby was a no show most of the series, including games 6 and 7

Talbot had 4 goals and 6 points. Talbot had more goals than Crosby had points. Doesn’t make him superior like your silly little strawman argument, only shows that Crosby couldn’t do it by himself.

Are you unintentionally talking about Connor's underperfomance in game 7? I don't think what you meant to be talking about. Maybe try applying your logic to both sides which is all anyone is asking for here.

You'll find Crosby was more clutch / likely more of a 200 foot player (ie likely difference maker) while McDavid puts up more points / is likely better offensively in general. Meaning they're in the same tier of player.

Put another way, pretending Crosby underperformed is legitimate nonsense, especially when McDavid actually DID underperform in arguably every meaningful game in this year's SCF. Seriously what kind of argument even is this. Do better

Ah yes, using Crosbys magical “200 foot game” and “clutchness” in order to make up the difference in offense. What an original and stable argument

This is silliest statement I’ve ever seen you write. It’s actually impressive how ridiculous you can make yourself sound.

Remind me how many points Crosby had in the ‘09 finals? How many in games 6 and 7? What about the opening 2 games of the series? I’ll wait how he didn’t underperform, and yet McDavid did…

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I wonder when @norrisnick is going to jump in to add some extra context to this discussion by pointing out how great of a job his Detroit darlings did by shutting down the opposite team’s best offensive weapons, in this case Crosby, who was playing alongside the ghost of Chris Kunitz (1G in 24GP) and the corpse of Billy Guerin in the 2009 Finals. Surely, it has nothing to do with Norris Nick himself or the great Henrik Zetterberg being stuck to Crosby all series long and by putting up a defensive clinic to make sure Crosby was not producing in the finals..

Or does all this Detroit players glazing/bias takes only apply when Crosby is not involved? I think I know the answer.

 

[GreatGonzo]

The Crosby people: "points aren't everything"

The Crosby people when McDavid is pointless in games 6 & 7: "Points are everything!"

7-1-2-3 -3
“Definitely DIDNT underperform.”
7-3-8-11 +5
“CLEARLY underperformed.”

 

[PainForShane]

I watched Crosby exit Game 7 of his first Cup win early and thankfully, his team put in the work to make sure he wasn’t Cupless until 2016.

I watched McDavid do his part in Game 7 (and Game 6) and generate a bunch of high scoring chances that simply didn’t go the right way. It’s fine you and this crowd thought he was invisible. I actually watch the guy night in and night out.

Frankly, McDavid was a better defensive player and overall two way player in his first Finals than Crosby was in his first two appearances.

Wow, an actual argument. I'm actually surprised rn given your continuous banging on trying to convince everyone of the false equivalence of "trophy case = dominance" over the past however many pages, esp when you're comparing it to a player who was mostly injured during his prime. Clearly a player who was injured for most of the season won't be winning the season ending trophies, that is not hard to understand.

Also FWIW, I'm a neutral in this particular convo, I actually grew up a Caps fan in the mid 90s, was absolutely in love with Jim Carey and later Ollie the Goalie (not to mention Bondra who I think ended up criminally underrated, that guy was good). I am not some Crosby fanboy. And yet, it's pretty apparent that in this particular thread team McDavid (including but not limited to you) has been arguing continued nonsense and it's funny to laugh at some of your teammates' posts (specifically Gonzo and Drebin) while contributing as needed with basic ideas that Gonzo especially seems to be going out of his way to pretend to not understand. Whether McDavid is better than Crosby or vice versa, your team's arguments have been so, so, bad.

***

Regarding your claim above, I don't necessarily know how McDavid was compared to Sid's cups (yes, multiple cups) because Sid's games were a long time ago and I when I saw those games I wasn't focused on Sidney Crosby's performance in particular, I was just watching the games.

What I did see this past gm 7 was that Florida decided to play some sort of hybrid D coverage where they consistently stuck an extra forward in the shooting lane up high, which limited space for the forwards to drive into the D zone while also limiting long range shot opportunities in general.

A exceptionally gifted offensive player like McDavid (who to be clear, is imo probably the best offensive player in today's game), should've been able to figure out how to break this scheme at some point during the game, esp since the game was within a single goal the entire time and the outcome mattered. Also, I don't think this is an unreasonable ask for McD because imo his hockey IQ is extremely high / one of his strengths and this was more of a tactical shift by Florida than anything else. He wasn't able to do so.

***

All that to say McDavid hasn't been clutch offensively, at least not yet. Which I think is a fair criticism given most of his game related to supporting offense. Do I think he's a lower tier of player? No, of course not. It was one series. Elite players have bad series all the time, including in the Stanley Cup Finals. But pretending his 11 point SCF was all-time great performance (which is close enough to what Drebin said) is so clueless that it's embarrassing to read.

***

All that considered, your statement that "When real life played out and he underperformed in certain areas as an individual with his talent, they miraculously don’t matter any longer" applies more to your team's takes on McDavid than anything anyone has said about Sid, at least in this particular thread over the past few pages. That's all I was saying here.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Wow, an actual argument. I'm actually surprised rn given your continuous banging on trying to convince everyone of the false equivalence of "trophy case = dominance" over the past however many pages, esp when you're comparing it to a player who was mostly injured during his prime. Clearly a player who was injured for most of the season won't be winning the season ending trophies, that is not hard to understand.

Also FWIW, I'm a neutral in this particular convo, I actually grew up a Caps fan in the mid 90s, was absolutely in love with Jim Carey and later Ollie the Goalie (not to mention Bondra who I think ended up criminally underrated, that guy was good). I am not some Crosby fanboy. And yet, it's pretty apparent that in this particular thread team McDavid (including but not limited to you) has been arguing continued nonsense and it's funny to laugh at some of your teammates' posts (specifically Gonzo and Drebin) while contributing as needed with basic ideas that Gonzo especially seems to be going out of his way to pretend to not understand. Whether McDavid is better than Crosby or vice versa, your team's arguments have been so, so, bad.

***

Regarding your claim above, I don't necessarily know how McDavid was compared to Sid's cups (yes, multiple cups) because Sid's games were a long time ago and I when I saw those games I wasn't focused on Sidney Crosby's performance in particular, I was just watching the games.

What I did see this past gm 7 was that Florida decided to play some sort of hybrid D coverage where they consistently stuck an extra forward in the shooting lane up high, which limited space for the forwards to drive into the D zone while also limiting long range shot opportunities in general.

A exceptionally gifted offensive player like McDavid (who to be clear, is imo probably the best offensive player in today's game), should've been able to figure out how to break this scheme at some point during the game, esp since the game was within a single goal the entire time and the outcome mattered. Also, I don't think this is an unreasonable ask for McD because imo his hockey IQ is extremely high / one of his strengths and this was more of a tactical shift by Florida than anything else. He wasn't able to do so.

***

All that to say McDavid hasn't been clutch offensively, at least not yet. Which I think is a fair criticism given most of his game related to supporting offense. Do I think he's a lower tier of player? No, of course not. It was one series. Elite players have bad series all the time, including in the Stanley Cup Finals. But pretending his 11 point SCF was all-time great performance (which is close enough to what Drebin said) is so clueless that it's embarrassing to read.

***

All that considered, your statement that "When real life played out and he underperformed in certain areas as an individual with his talent, they miraculously don’t matter any longer" applies more to your team's takes on McDavid than anything anyone has said about Sid, at least in this particular thread over the past few pages. That's all I was saying here. Your logic / argument in this particular quote applies to your boy McDavid more than it ever did about Sid.

Quite literally the silliest takes I’ve read. But keep going, it’s entertaining watching you struggle so hard to discredit McDavid

 

[PainForShane]

Quite literally the silliest takes I’ve read. But keep going, it’s entertaining watching you struggle so hard to discredit McDavid

I'm not. I'm just saying his 11 point SCF (when 10 of those points were scored in garbage time) wasn't clutch or an all-time great performance. And my post was more around clowning on the other poster's broken logic than anything else which should've been obvious given the TLDR summary at the end. And also the fact I literally said, "Elite players have bad series all the time."

And also to your last post, another poster responded directly to you and discussed at length the 2009 cup finals a few pages ago. Further proof of your inability to understand words or what the concept of "clutch" is.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I'm not. I'm just saying his 11 point SCF (when 10 of those points were scored in garbage time) wasn't clutch or an all-time great performance. And my post was more around clowning on the other poster's broken logic than anything else which should've been obvious given the TLDR summary at the end. And also the fact I literally said, "Elite players have bad series all the time."

And also to your last post, another poster responded directly to you and discussed at length the 2009 cup finals a few pages ago. Further proof of your inability to understand words or what the concept of "clutch" is.

I don’t recall anyone saying it was a clutch/all time performance. You are the one so hell bent on talking about how clutch Crosby has been compared to McDavid.

You summarized your entire post by calling 10/11 of his points “garbage time.” Sorry but you lose all credit when arguing some garbage points(pun intended). Ironic that you of all people are trying to catch others on “broken logic”, all after saying this…

“Put another way, pretending Crosby underperformed is legitimate nonsense, especially when McDavid actually DID underperform in arguably every meaningful game in this year's SCF.”

I asked how Crosby was clutch in the ‘09 finals….if you can’t answer that then just say that.

 

[PainForShane]

I don’t recall anyone saying it was a clutch/all time performance. You are the one so hell bent on talking about how clutch Crosby has been compared to McDavid.

You summarized your entire post by calling 10/11 of his points “garbage time.” Sorry but you lose all credit when arguing some garbage points(pun intended). Ironic that you of all people are trying to catch others on “broken logic”, all after saying this…

“Put another way, pretending Crosby underperformed is legitimate nonsense, especially when McDavid actually DID underperform in arguably every meaningful game in this year's SCF.”

I asked how Crosby was clutch in the ‘09 finals….if you can’t answer that then just say that.

Drebin said something similar so many times (about the impressiveness / all-timeness of McD's performance this SCF / playoffs). Learn how to read.

Also, a prior poster did a deep dive about the 2009 finals a few pages ago in a direct response to a question you posed, it was a response to a question you had so I'm sure you saw the post. Most of it was around the impact Sid made in the series. Learn how to read.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

A team can look better on paper, but when they don’t show up when it counts, it’s a moot point the amount of “talent” they have. Crosby was a no show most of the series, including games 6 and 7

Talbot had 4 goals and 6 points. Talbot had more goals than Crosby had points. Doesn’t make him superior like your silly little strawman argument, only shows that Crosby couldn’t do it by himself.

Crosby was facing the best shutdown combination of his generation - and better than any since - of Zetterberg and Lidstrom every time he stepped over the boards. At age 21. What was McDavid's playoff track record at that age?