Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[bambamcam4ever]

So if his teammates score goals and win the game in game 6 or 7 like Crosby's did when he won his that would make McDavid the better hockey player ?? Make it make sense

Crosby didn't force his team to play his preferred play style. Or hog all the best players in his line/ D pairing and then still not produce

He last won a playoff series when he was 30! We're not talking about f***ing Gordie Howe here.

McDavid hasn't won the Stanley Cup because the Oilers haven't been good enough. This isn't exactly complicated stuff.

Until the last few games of the SCF, McDavid had been outscored at 5v5 in his playoff career when he didn't have Draisaitl on his line. The Oilers haven't won because McDavid wasn't good enough.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby didn't force his team to play his preferred play style. Or hog all the best players in his line/ D pairing and then still not produce

What the hell are you trying to argue?

“still not produce.” He had 11 points in the finals…Crosby had 3….

 

[bambamcam4ever]

My favorite part of this thread is Crosby fans acting like he played in the clutch and grab era.

Post-2010 he certainly did.

 

[Soundwave]

The "McDavid is not a winner like Crosby is" reminds me a lot of the "Michael Jordan is a fancy pants scorer/dunker but he's not the winner Magic and Bird are, can't lead a team to a championship" ... until of course Michael Jordan got better teams around him and then proceeded to win 6 championships in a 7 year span.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

They don’t get out of round 2 without McDavid scoring 21 points in 12 games

That’s the point

Has Crosby ever scored 21 points over 12 games in the playoffs? What’s his very best 12 game stretch?

He did it in 2018 lol when he was past his prime, just goes to show how much easier it is to score now

 

[Romang67]

Crosby didn't force his team to play his preferred play style. Or hog all the best players in his line/ D pairing and then still not produce


Until the last few games of the SCF, McDavid had been outscored at 5v5 in his playoff career when he didn't have Draisaitl on his line. The Oilers haven't won because McDavid wasn't good enough.

3 last playoffs 5v5:

McDavid without Draisaitl: 31GF, 23GA
Draisaitl without McDavid: 21GF, 33GA

Oilers without either:

33GF, 48GA.

"The Oilers haven't won because McDavid wasn't good enough."

Sure. Technically. Any time a team doesn't win the Stanley Cup, it's because an individual player wasn't good enough.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

It’s a team game. The only reason anyone brings up these points at all is because of all the fans in hockey history, Crosby fans seem to be the only ones convinced that he has the power to single-handedly win those Cups.

Besides, it’s a fact. Crosby doesn’t win in 2016 putting up 3 goals and 11 points in 19 games during Rounds 2-4 or in 2017 leading (tied) his team in scoring during a lone round (6 points in 7 games), without sparkling all around goaltending.

If someone can pile up 42 points in a playoff run, factor in on half their team’s offense, and play sound defense, and still lose, then it should people in that every player on the roster matters.

1) Ever consider that maybe the Penguins had good goaltending in 2017 (from 2 different goalies) was due to how the team played in front of them? The Penguins played an extreme defense-first style that playoffs, one McDavid has never bought into his entire life.

2) Mcdavid didn't play solid defense this playoffs, he just gave effort into playing defense. Plenty of overaggressive plays and missed reads.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Post-2010 he certainly did.

No, he didn’t. That was not the “clutch and grab era v2.” Stop trying to rewrite history just to make Crosby look better. It’s ridiculous.

 

[Soundwave]

1) Ever consider that maybe the Penguins had good goaltending in 2017 (from 2 different goalies) was due to how the team played in front of them? The Penguins played an extreme defense-first style that playoffs, one McDavid has never bought into his entire life.

2) Mcdavid didn't play solid defense this playoffs, he just gave effort into playing defense. Plenty of overaggressive plays and missed reads.

Ironically actually the Oilers do play a lot more like the Penguins now.

MAF + pre-injury Murray are still better than Skinner though, but the Oilers had a solid GA in the regular season + playoffs. Knoblaugh and Coffey changed a lot of things.

 

[GreatGonzo]

1) Ever consider that maybe the Penguins had good goaltending in 2017 (from 2 different goalies) was due to how the team played in front of them? The Penguins played an extreme defense-first style that playoffs, one McDavid has never bought into his entire life.

2) Mcdavid didn't play solid defense this playoffs, he just gave effort into playing defense. Plenty of overaggressive plays and missed reads.

please provide proof for your claims. I’ll wait…

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Ironically actually the Oilers do play a lot more like the Penguins now.

MAF + pre-injury Murray are still better than Skinner though, but the Oilers had a solid GA in the regular season + playoffs. Knoblaugh and Coffey changed a lot of things.

MAF was poor in 2009, the Penguins still won. The 2009 Penguins had a bottom-3 group of wingers in the league, they still won. The 2009 Penguins had 4 defensemen who had no offensive ability whatsoever, they still won and Crosby/Malkin made massive impacts offensively. McDavid gets so many excuses yet he can't win at any level.

There is a lot of revisionist history just because the Penguins did win 3 cups, for the first decade+ of his career a common theme was why isn't Crosby/Malkin given any help?

 

[Soundwave]

MAF was poor in 2009, the Penguins still won. The 2009 Penguins had a bottom-3 group of wingers in the league, they still won. The 2009 Penguins had 4 defensemen who had no offensive ability whatsoever, they still won and Crosby/Malkin made massive impacts offensively. McDavid gets so many excuses yet he can't win at any level.

Except he wasn't. He was bad in the Washington series but the Penguins caught a break in Washington's goaltending was also bad in that series.

Pittsburgh was down 2-3 in the Cup Final, one game away from losing, MAF stepped up and allowed only 2 goals total in game 6 and 7, two games in which Crosby had 0 points and Malkin had 1, Pittsburgh wins the Cup.

If that's "poor", then that's the best McDavid has ever had by quite a ways.

With a Stanley Cup on the line, you're not getting much better than a goalie that steps up and only gives up 1 goal total in both a game 6 and game 7 of a Cup Final. That basically won them a Cup.

 

[GreatGonzo]

MAF was poor in 2009, the Penguins still won. The 2009 Penguins had a bottom-3 group of wingers in the league, they still won. The 2009 Penguins had 4 defensemen who had no offensive ability whatsoever, they still won and Crosby/Malkin made massive impacts offensively. McDavid gets so many excuses yet he can't win at any level.

There is a lot of revisionist history just because the Penguins did win 3 cups, for the first decade+ of his career a common theme was why isn't Crosby/Malkin given any help?

Man the irony

Yes, and the Pens STILL won with Crosby being a complete non impactful player in the finals. Why ignore this “small” detail?…

MAF played lights out the last two games of the finals. Malkin stepped up big, they had secondary scoring from their bottom pairings(the same ones that were “bottom” of the league)…but where was Crosby?.

 

[daver]

What a weirdly roundabout way of saying McDavid already has a better playoff run than any of Crosby's runs.

It is arguable. Crosby's 2009 run was better than McDavid's 2024 thru 3 rounds then it depends on how much value you want to place on McDavid's SCF performance.

 

[Soundwave]

Man the irony

Yes, and the Pens STILL won with Crosby being a complete non impactful player in the finals. Why ignore this “small” detail?…

MAF played lights out the last two games of the finals. Malkin stepped up big, they had secondary scoring from their bottom pairings(the same ones that were “bottom” of the league)…but where was Crosby?.

To be honest even Malkin wasn't that great in games 6 and 7.

MAF dialed his game in, which star goalies have the ability of doing.

Detroit had all the momentum in that series going into game 6, just had won 5-0, had the Pens down and had beat them the year prior too.

Malkin/Crosby weren't big factors in game 6/7. MAF tipped the scales absolutely. Not only did Detroit only sniff 1 goal in both game 6 and 7 to lose, they didn't even get their 1st goal on the board until well into the 3rd period of both games, only giving them a tiny window in both games to even have a shot of winning.

That's the luxury of having a star goalie, they can elevate their game for a stretch of a series and tip a series an entirely different way.

 

[Romang67]

It is arguable. Crosby's 2009 run was better than McDavid's 2024 thru 3 rounds then it depends on how much value you want to place on McDavid's SCF performance.

I mean, you said he had a better 4 round playoff run. Crosby's 2009 playoff run was 4 rounds, and you said it was worse.

So like I said, it seems like a weirdly roundabout way of saying McDavid has the better playoff run.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It is arguable. Crosby's 2009 run was better than McDavid's 2024 thru 3 rounds then it depends on how much value you want to place on McDavid's SCF performance.

How was it “better?”

To be honest even Malkin wasn't that great in games 6 and 7.

MAF dialed his game in, which star goalies have the ability of doing.

Detroit had all the momentum in that series going into game 6, just had won 5-0, had the Pens down and had beat them the year prior too.

Malkin/Crosby weren't big factors in game 6/7. MAF tipped the scales absolutely. Not only did Detroit only sniff 1 goal in both game 6 and 7 to lose, they didn't even get their 1st goal on the board until well into the 3rd period of both games, only giving them a tiny window in both games to even have a shot of winning.

That's the luxury of having a star goalie, they can elevate their game for a stretch of a series and tip a series an entirely different way.

He wasn’t, but he still had 8 points in the series. Games 6 and 7 were very much more about bottom scoring and goaltending, which came in clutch for Pitt.

 

[BraveCanadian]

They talk about it as if 2009 was 40 years ago and we are all 16 year olds who've only seen mcdavid play live lol

This is literally a rehash of the dumb arguments from 15 years ago that Crosby was the best player ever because modern players, goaltenders, and "systems" are all more advanced blah blah.. but now here we are with the window shifted and instead of Crosby vs. Gretzky and Lemieux or whatever.. it is McDavid and Crosby is the old timer who played when everyone was a plumber lol.

It's pretty funny tbh.

However, I repeat my earlier statement that McDavid is clearly better, for the record.

After their 10th year in the league, Ovechkin and Crosby had combined for a single Stanley Cup win. They had won a combined 7 playoff rounds in the 6 years after Crosby had won his only Stanley Cup. They had reached the conference finals once in that time, where Crosby's Penguins were bounced in 4 games and he scored 0 points.

That's a really weird lull assuming that the players are indeed entirely responsible for their team winning.

They just hadn't learned to be great leaders of men yet, that's all.

After attending the intangibles summer camp after year 10 they really stepped it up.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

To be honest even Malkin wasn't that great in games 6 and 7.

MAF dialed his game in, which star goalies have the ability of doing.

Detroit had all the momentum in that series going into game 6, just had won 5-0, had the Pens down and had beat them the year prior too.

Malkin/Crosby weren't big factors in game 6/7. MAF tipped the scales absolutely. Not only did Detroit only sniff 1 goal in both game 6 and 7 to lose, they didn't even get their 1st goal on the board until well into the 3rd period of both games, only giving them a tiny window in both games to even have a shot of winning.

That's the luxury of having a star goalie, they can elevate their game for a stretch of a series and tip a series an entirely different way.

No, the Penguins team commitment to defense suffocated Detroit's offense, Fleury is being given far too much credit in this thread. The games are on YouTube, watch them if you can. Look at the final minute of game 6! Scuderi made multiple saves behind Fleury as he slid way out of position

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Except he wasn't. He was bad in the Washington series but the Penguins caught a break in Washington's goaltending was also bad in that series.

Pittsburgh was down 2-3 in the Cup Final, one game away from losing, MAF stepped up and allowed only 2 goals total in game 6 and 7, two games in which Crosby had 0 points and Malkin had 1, Pittsburgh wins the Cup.

If that's "poor", then that's the best McDavid has ever had by quite a ways.

With a Stanley Cup on the line, you're not getting much better than a goalie that steps up and only gives up 1 goal total in both a game 6 and game 7 of a Cup Final. That basically won them a Cup.

Compared to the Oilers goalie, who allowed a total of 3 goals between games 6 and 7. Such hardships McDavid must endure

 

[Soundwave]

No, the Penguins team commitment to defense suffocated Detroit's offense, Fleury is being given far too much credit in this thread. The games are on YouTube, watch them if you can. Look at the final minute of game 6! Scuderi made multiple saves behind Fleury as he slid way out of position

And the Oilers to their credit are becoming more of that kind of team, but to deny MAF had nothing to do with that is just insane.

The Oilers should be given a fair bit of credit, defensively they improved a ton this season, top 5-6 in the league for GA under Knoblaugh, and very good in the playoffs even limiting teams like Dallas and Florida to not much as those series went on.

Heart too ... given the start the Oilers had (2nd worst record in the league in mid-November), being down to Vancouver multiple times (0-1, 1-2, 2-3), being down to Dallas (oh the "real" Oilers have showed up now Dallas will mop the floor with), down 0-3 in the Finals to fight back ... lets be honest a lot of teams would have quit in those situations.

MAF's a Hall of Fame goalie and was even then an All-Star level goaltender, having a goalie like that can tilt a series no doubt about it. It's a definite advantage to have a goalie like that.

 

[JoelWarlord]

I wouldn't hand-wave the era adjustment stuff, obviously it wasn't the clutch and grab era back then but scoring has been about 15% higher since 17-18 than it was in the preceding 7-8 years and those periods basically line up with McDavid and Crosby's primes. It wasn't that long ago but we're comparing a period where Jamie Benn won an Art Ross with 87 points to a period regularly featuring 130-150 point seasons from top scorers.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Compared to the Oilers goalie, who allowed a total of 3 goals between games 6 and 7. Such hardships McDavid must endure

Yes let’s cherry pick games and ignore the fact that he was barely a .900 through out the playoffs…

Let’s also not forget how guys like Drai, Hyman, and Bouchard played in the finals….while guys like Nurse and Ceci bled goals.

But sure, that’s ALL McDavids doing….much like Malkin, MAF, and Talbots play in the finals was ALL due to Crosbys “leadership” and taking the tougher match ups. He scored only 3 points and went -3 in the finals BECAUSE that’s what real leaders do to get their team to win, they let everyone else do it for them.

 

[GreatGonzo]

No, the Penguins team commitment to defense suffocated Detroit's offense, Fleury is being given far too much credit in this thread. The games are on YouTube, watch them if you can. Look at the final minute of game 6! Scuderi made multiple saves behind Fleury as he slid way out of position

Fleury had a .960 save percentage and only allowed 2 goals on games 6 and 7. Maybe give credit where credit is due instead of attempting to make other players appear less impactful because it helps your argument..

 

[tabness]