Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[MacMacandBarbie]

One guy said McDavid sucked because his stats sucked. I replied with Crosby's stats (which were worse) in almost exactly the same situation, which is essentially using that person's argument against them. Then, you reply the above.

Funny you bring up context and then miss out on it entirely with your reply. Lol

I got the context just fine. McDavid didn't suck, and neither did Crosby. I was imploring both you and the other poster to look beyond the stats, especially you because your stats are 15 years old, whereas we just saw McDavid's Stanely Cup final performance less than a month ago.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby was so great that even if he wasn't scoring, Detroit knew that taking a single resource of Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Z(their best players) to matchup against Malkin's line would be a mistake. Penguins got to enjoy the luxury of keeping Staal on the 3rd line, and Malkin on the 2nd line. Oilers didn't have that luxury. Drai sucked in the finals and RNH had to be moved around.

Odd narrative. Strawman? Most people recognized McDavid just came off one of the greatest post seasons of all time. Not sure where you are getting these bullet points from.

Well, Crosby is a leader. But again you are framing it in a way that makes it seem like the majority are arguing McDavid didn't step up in that department a huge amount the last couple seasons. Crosby was fantastic and still drew the toughest matchups. So if he fell off a cliff like Draisaitl and no longer had Babcock wasting Lidstrom/Rafalski pairing minutes on Crosby and sacrificing Z's offense so he could shadow Crosby you have a point. But I think causing the wings to waste all their resources on Crosby allowed players like Talbot to become the hero.

So Crosby is STILL elite even when he isn’t scoring, you just can’t provide any facts behind that? Basically, Crosby does no wrong regardless…

That’s exactly my point. But you’re romanticizing it. It’s pretty straight forward, Crosby couldn’t handle the match up, while also being poor in his own end….and needed secondary scoring and solid goaltending to compete with Detroit.

Strawman? Are you new to this thread? Or maybe all the other threads? All those points have been used against McDavid.

Such a great leader, that he couldn’t even lead them the rest of the way? Again, you love trying to make it sound like Crosby basically didnt crap the bed in the finals, which he did. Sure, he handled the tougher match ups and got out played….he needed his TEAM to bail him out. Basically, Crosby is such a great “leader” that he took the tougher match ups and “sacrificed” his play for the good of the team?…

What kind of nonsense is this?

I got the context just fine. McDavid didn't suck, and neither did Crosby. I was imploring both you and the other poster to look beyond the stats, especially you because your stats are 15 years old, whereas we just saw McDavid's Stanely Cup final performance less than a month ago.

Crosby definitely sucked in the 2009 finals. The stats show this enough, stop trying to hide his play with “context” and “eye test” talk. That only shows what little evidence you have.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

2014 Crosby - sure. But 2014 wasn't anywhere near Crosby's best season (which was 2010). But 2008 Ovechkin? - lol.

Lemieux wasn't even better than his own linemate in half season's worth of games that he bothered to play in.

Then he was under a PPG in the playoffs despite playing himself 24 minutes per game, and had 3 assists and no goals in his final 6 games. Had Lemieux tried to play a full season that year he would have rapidly diminished (obviously).

There is no way that was more valuable than peak Ovechkin.

2014 Crosby lapped the field in scoring, so you are going to have a hard time convincing me that it 'wasn't anywhere near Crosby's best season'

2008-2011 OV was one of the greatest players of all time. We get it. It was too short to bring up and its like a Lindros 2.0 argument. Not sure if it is worth the 'what ifs'

 

[Voight]

My favorite part of this thread is Crosby fans acting like he played in the clutch and grab era.

 

[daver]

McDavid's 2024 SCF was like Crosby's 2008 SCF, satisfactory but not good enough to win. McDavid had more points, Crosby showed up earlier in his series than McDavid did in his. Crosby's opponent was a Wings juggernaut.

Crosby's first three round performance in 2009 was as good as McDavid's 2022 playoffs given he and Malkin were not glued together like McDrai were, and was better than McDavid's first three rounds in 2024.

Crosby's 2018 playoffs are better than McDavid's 2023 playoffs.

If you want to give McDavid the edge in "Best four round playoff run", sure.

But then you have to give Crosby a bigger edge in playoff career value. Of course McDavid has time to change this.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

So Crosby is STILL elite even when he isn’t scoring, you just can’t provide any facts behind that? Basically, Crosby does no wrong regardless…

I provided the facts. Babcock coming out and saying Crosby was the biggest threat and they game planned around him. Him line matching Lidstrom and Rafalski and shadowing him with Z. You just don't like the facts.

That’s exactly my point. But you’re romanticizing it. It’s pretty straight forward, Crosby couldn’t handle the match up, while also being poor in his own end….and needed secondary scoring and solid goaltending to compete with Detroit.

Crosby handled the matchup fine enough to keep having that matchup deployed against him. Seems like wasting the biggest scoring threats on Detroit to shut down Crosby had an impact. But yes, he needed secondary scoring and solid goaltending to compete with one of the greatest cap teams to ever exist. I think you will find that McDavid, Lemieux, and others needed secondary scoring as well.

Strawman? Are you new to this thread? Or maybe all the other threads? All those points have been used against McDavid.

Not by me, the poster who you are replying to.

Such a great leader, that he couldn’t even lead them the rest of the way? Again, you love trying to make it sound like Crosby basically didnt crap the bed in the finals, which he did. Sure, he handled the tougher match ups and got out played….he needed his TEAM to bail him out. Basically, Crosby is such a great “leader” that he took the tougher match ups and “sacrificed” his play for the good of the team?…

uhh, he did? I am pretty sure he had the C on the chest for 3 Stanley cups. Not sure what your point is here.

What kind of nonsense is this?


Crosby definitely sucked in the 2009 finals. The stats show this enough, stop trying to hide his play with “context” and “eye test” talk. That only shows what little evidence you have.

I guess we will just have to like, disagree my man. I am happy to go by the eye test, as well as the experts at that time, the entire coaching plan by the other team supporting this as well, and GreatGonzo's opinion doesn't sway me. We can disagree, its okay.

My favorite part of this thread is Crosby fans acting like he played in the clutch and grab era.

Mind quoting the person who made this claim?

 

[daver]

Thru Game 41 of Season 6 of their respective careers, they were almost equal in career PPG and in the gap between them and their peers. McDavid played just 15 more games that year and is drawing comparisons to Mario while Crosby gets the "we will never know" treatment.

 

[Voight]

McDavid's 2024 SCF was like Crosby's 2008 SCF, satisfactory but not good enough to win. McDavid had more points, Crosby showed up earlier in his series than McDavid did in his. Crosby's opponent was a Wings juggernaut.

Crosby's first three round performance in 2009 was as good as McDavid's 2022 playoffs given he and Malkin were not glued together like McDrai were, and was better than McDavid's first three rounds in 2024.

Crosby's 2018 playoffs are better than McDavid's 2023 playoffs.

If you want to give McDavid the edge in "Best four round playoff run", sure.

But then you have to give Crosby a bigger edge in playoff career value. Of course McDavid has time to change this.

McDavids opponent was in their second straight finals and lost all of 5 games in the first three rounds. Sure on paper the Red Wings look more formidable, but the Panthers were 4th in the league this season and had plenty of talent.

 

[bigbadbruins1]

McD is the better player, Crosby is the better leader. McD has the accolades but will hopefully get to the cup provided EDM doesn't crash and burn. I would say McD is more flashy and dominates with his physical skills,, where Crosby is more cerebral and hockey sense and outsmarts his opponent.

Also, it is to be said the Crosby has had MUCH better management from top to bottom.
Also, the game is different. it is much more offense and scoring compared to when prime Sidd was competing in the 2010ish hockey era.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

'Knoblauch said Leon Draisaitl had hand and rib injuries that left staff questioning whether he could play'

And it was pretty obvious at some point in the Vancouver series that Draisaitl looked visibly different. The truth is, if Draisaitl played as well as Malkin played in those penguins runs then the Oilers have the cup right now. I really do believe we saw one of the greatest post season runs by a player of all time. If you think McDavid is better than Crosby, I can buy it. I can't see a whole 'tier' as this thread title positions the debate, but McDavid is one of the greatest to ever lace them up and we shouldn't bring either of these giants down to prop the other up. Thanks to all the posters who contributed with good arguments, it was a pleasure. I look forward to seeing how this comparison shakes out in 5-10 years when McDavid's career is wrapping up and things look a bit different.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

My favorite part of this thread is Crosby fans acting like he played in the clutch and grab era.

They talk about it as if 2009 was 40 years ago and we are all 16 year olds who've only seen mcdavid play live lol

 

[GreatGonzo]

I provided the facts. Babcock coming out and saying Crosby was the biggest threat and they game planned around him. Him line matching Lidstrom and Rafalski and shadowing him with Z. You just don't like the facts.

Crosby handled the matchup fine enough to keep having that matchup deployed against him. Seems like wasting the biggest scoring threats on Detroit to shut down Crosby had an impact. But yes, he needed secondary scoring and solid goaltending to compete with one of the greatest cap teams to ever exist. I think you will find that McDavid, Lemieux, and others needed secondary scoring as well.

Not by me, the poster who you are replying to.

uhh, he did? I am pretty sure he had the C on the chest for 3 Stanley cups. Not sure what your point is here.

I guess we will just have to like, disagree my man. I am happy to go by the eye test, as well as the experts at that time, the entire coaching plan by the other team supporting this as well, and GreatGonzo's opinion doesn't sway me. We can disagree, its okay.


Mind quoting the person who made this claim?

Sure, and again..he couldn’t handle the match up. It’s that simple. Again, keep trying to romanticize it.

Well ya, you use the “eye test” because there’s no way of proving YOU wrong. It’s rather convenient.

 

[Romang67]

If you want to give McDavid the edge in "Best four round playoff run", sure.

What a weirdly roundabout way of saying McDavid already has a better playoff run than any of Crosby's runs.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

If it doesn't matter how, it doesn't matter that it happened.

Yes it does.

 

[pi314]

What part of Ovi & Crosby having 8 combined Hart & Art Rosses in 38 seasons and McDavid having 8 of those trophies in 9 season was because of goalie pad size? Can you explain to an average joe like me?

Now do winning.

 

[Romang67]

Now do winning.

After their 10th year in the league, Ovechkin and Crosby had combined for a single Stanley Cup win. They had won a combined 7 playoff rounds in the 6 years after Crosby had won his only Stanley Cup. They had reached the conference finals once in that time, where Crosby's Penguins were bounced in 4 games and he scored 0 points.

That's a really weird lull assuming that the players are indeed entirely responsible for their team winning.

 

[pi314]

After their 10th year in the league, Ovechkin and Crosby had combined for a single Stanley Cup win. They had won a combined 7 playoff rounds in the 6 years after Crosby had won his only Stanley Cup. They had reached the conference finals once in that time, where Crosby's Penguins were bounced in 4 games and he scored 0 points.

That's a really weird lull assuming that the players are indeed entirely responsible for their team winning.

Here are the facts.

Crosby won 3 championships, took his team to 4.

He's also won internationally. Olympic gold. World championships. World juniors. Took his team to the memorial cup.

Seems to be a recurring pattern of winning.

McDavid didn't even lead his team to a beer league championship.

Connor McDavid shows up to beer league hockey game, team loses in blowout

Was a non-factor in 5 of the 7 games that mattered this year.

Yes he's an all time great. Yes he'll finish in the top 10 all time.

Though the idea that he's a "tier above" because we shrunk pad size and his inflated stats is laughable.

The point of the game is to win.

You only have excuses.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Here are the facts.

Crosby won 3 championships, took his team to 4.

He's also won internationally. Olympic gold. World championships. World juniors. Took his team to the memorial cup.

Seems to be a recurring pattern of winning.

McDavid didn't even lead his team to a beer league championship.

Connor McDavid shows up to beer league hockey game, team loses in blowout

Was a non-factor in 5 of the 7 games that mattered this year.

Yes he's an all time great. Yes he'll finish in the top 10 all time.

Though the idea that he's a "tier above" because we shrunk pad size and his inflated stats is laughable.

The point of the game is to win.

You only have excuses.

I’ve never seen someone so desperate to belittle McDavid that they post a “beer league” game as if that’s the end all-be all.

Crosby was a non factor in 5/7 of the games in ‘09. Including going pointless in games 6 and 7 while barely playing in game 7…..what’s your excuse for that?

It’s easy to win when you have a team around you fully capable of doing such.

 

[Romang67]

Here are the facts.

Crosby won 3 championships, took his team to 4.

He's also won internationally. Olympic gold. World championships. World juniors. Took his team to the memorial cup.

Seems to be a recurring pattern of winning.

McDavid didn't even lead his team to a beer league championship.

Connor McDavid shows up to beer league hockey game, team loses in blowout

Was a non-factor in 5 of the 7 games that mattered this year.

Yes he's an all time great. Yes he'll finish in the top 10 all time.

Though the idea that he's a "tier above" because we shrunk pad size and his inflated stats is laughable.

The point of the game is to win.

You only have excuses.

Sounds like he's a winner. That must be something that he's still doing consistently then, since winning is an inherent trait in a player.

So... what's going on now? Did Crosby forget how to win after 2018? The Penguins haven't won a playoff round since they got bounced by the Capitals in the 2018 playoffs. They've won 4 playoffs games since then.

 

[pi314]

Sounds like he's a winner. That must be something that he's still doing consistently then, since winning is an inherent trait in a player.

So... what's going on now? Did Crosby forget how to win after 2018? The Penguins haven't won a playoff round since they got bounced by the Capitals in the 2018 playoffs. They've won 4 playoffs games since then.

Father time is undefeated in case you didn't know.

Why hasn't McDavid won?

Now let's your hear your excuses.

 

[Midnight Judges]

2014 Crosby lapped the field in scoring, so you are going to have a hard time convincing me that it 'wasn't anywhere near Crosby's best season'

It was just a weak season for the top scorers - most of whom were injured.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

In another 5 years people are gonna be saying Crosby > Gainey defensively I swear to god

 

[GreatGonzo]

Father time is undefeated in case you didn't know.

Why hasn't McDavid won?

Now let's your hear your excuses.

So basically with age, his “leadership” and “winning” ways deteriorate?

….because he didn’t have a better team
Around him. The same and only reason why Crosby won his first cup.

 

[Romang67]

Father time is undefeated in case you didn't know.

Why hasn't McDavid won?

Now let's your hear your excuses.

He last won a playoff series when he was 30! We're not talking about f***ing Gordie Howe here.

McDavid hasn't won the Stanley Cup because the Oilers haven't been good enough. This isn't exactly complicated stuff.

 

[JoelWarlord]

I was a contrarian on this for a while but McDavid has got to be ahead right now. They're probably both in the same tier since I don't think either has reached the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr level though. It's possible Crosby ends up with the better career (in longevity terms, not cupzzz/gold medals etc) because he's been exceptionally productive late into his career and McDavid might not age the same way with how much he relies on his speed, but right now McDavid is ahead. For a while there was an argument about two-way play but McDavid has fixed that and I don't think Crosby is or ever was a truly dominant defensive forward. The best I can do without appealing to moar cupz is say "maybe without the concussions" or talk about era adjustment.

The crazy thing is that McDavid dragged a team with Cody Ceci in the top 4 and a shooter tutor in net to game 7 of the cup final this year and broke a Gretzky record, but he was still probably better in the 21-22 playoffs. If the ping pong balls fell a different way in the 2015 lottery McDavid has a cup or two now. Just incredible to me to look at that Edmonton roster and see how far he and Draisaitl have been able to take that garbage. Crosby helped Chris Kunitz be a 60 point guy instead of a 45 point guy through his career, but Zach Hyman just scored 54 f***ing goals because of McDavid. It's just absolutely insane to watch and it feels like there still might be another level for him to reach.