Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[bobholly39]

Do this years oilers have the same success with Crosby in whatever year he was at his best?

Do the oilers have better playoff success in any previous years with the best version of Crosby?

Answer is no.

Mcdavid is the better, more dominant player of the two

By default, that puts him on a different tier

Those are two extremely loaded questions and one extremely dumb and oversimplified answer. It's definitely not that easy.

Oilers may have had same/better success with Crosby. Or maybe they do worst. It's impossible to say. Way too many layers to it.

If you're trying to prove some point - you're definitely not doing it right.

Also - the poster I replied to was saying "voters says McDavid wins the poll". And all I said was no - he doesn't. Majority of voters are saying they are on the same tier.

 

[orby]

I think McDavid is a little better, but if both were playing their peak years in the same era, Crosby's scoring numbers would not be too far behind McDavid's.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I guess Draisaitl, Kucherov, MacKinnon and Matthews are there on Mario's and Orr tier too?

All of them had better were as good as McDavid at different times. You cannot say that about Mario and Orr.

Sure you can - which is why Bobby Orr only won the Hart 3 times in 8 healthy seasons (and he only won the Pearson 1 time in 5 opportunities). The people who were there said Esposito, Clarke, Beliveau, Mikita, Parent, and Vachon were at times more valuable than Orr.

Same goes for Mario who won 3 Harts in 17 seasons - because other players were often better than him - including Gretzky, Jagr, Messier, Hull, Liut, Bourque, Roy, Kariya, Hasek, and Sakic.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

McDavid AINEC.

 

[snag]

Sure you can - which is why Bobby Orr only won the Hart 3 times in 8 healthy seasons (and he only won the Pearson 1 time in 5 opportunities). The people who were there said Esposito, Clarke, Beliveau, Mikita, Parent, and Vachon were at times more valuable than Orr.

Same goes for Mario who won 3 Harts in 17 seasons - because other players were often better than him - including Gretzky, Jagr, Messier, Hull, Liut, Bourque, Roy, Kariya, Hasek, and Sakic.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Crosby in the final 2 games of the Pens 2009 cup win:
0pts
-1

Apparently Crosby himself wasn't on revisionist history's version of 'Crosby's level'.

Some people watched the games where Babcock line matched Crosby against Lidstrom and Rafalski, and shadowed him with Z, and said the entire game plan was to shut down Crosby.

Some people just look at the stats 15 years later with no context and make a snarky comment. We know who you are.

 

[crowfish]

Would you mind reading the bolded part again?



How do you explain the part where they shrunk goalie pads and we went from 1 guy breaking 100 points to 15?

It’s very easy to hoodwink average joes with raw point totals.

Then let’s not even get to the part where there’s a whole game without the puck.

What part of Ovi & Crosby having 8 combined Hart & Art Rosses in 38 seasons and McDavid having 8 of those trophies in 9 season was because of goalie pad size? Can you explain to an average joe like me?

 

[Frank Drebin]

Those are two extremely loaded questions and one extremely dumb and oversimplified answer. It's definitely not that easy.

Oilers may have had same/better success with Crosby. Or maybe they do worst. It's impossible to say. Way too many layers to it.

If you're trying to prove some point - you're definitely not doing it right.

Also - the poster I replied to was saying "voters says McDavid wins the poll". And all I said was no - he doesn't. Majority of voters are saying they are on the same tier.

Oilers may have had the same success if they drafted Jack Eichel 1oa in 2015

Impossible to know

Some people watched the games where Babcock line matched Crosby against Lidstrom and Rafalski, and shadowed him with Z, and said the entire game plan was to shut down Crosby.

Some people just look at the stats 15 years later with no context and make a snarky comment. We know who you are.

I wonder when modern coaches will try to adapt that strategy with mcdavid? Sounds smart

 

[Midnight Judges]

revolving wingers consisting of Kunitz/Guerin/Dupois/Sheary/Armstrong/Recchi/Hornqvist/Malone etc. who all had career years playing with 87.

You can make similar lists for McDavid, Ovechkin, or any number of top line superstars.

Of course, your list isn't even accurate.

Dupuis's best two seasons were 2012 - when Crosby barely played - and his 2003 season in Minnesota - before Crosby was even in the NHL.

Hornqvist was a 20-30 goal/50 point player in Nashville. When he went to Pittsburgh he morphed all the way into....a 20-30 goal/50 point player.

And it is flat out bizarre for you to claim Recchi had a "career year" with Crosby when he had 57 points when he was a 123 point hall of fame player.

Same goes for Guerin - who was a 40goal/85 point player, but you want to pretend his 21 goals/45 points with Crosby were somehow a career year?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Through their first 9 seasons, scoring is 5.3% higher for McDavid, while PPO have been lower in all 9 seasons.

McDavid beat Crosby’s career high by 33 points, or 27.5%, in a league with 7.8% higher scoring, 34.9% fewer PP, and 60.5% lower PPO. He dummied Crosby to an even greater degree with his 2020-2021 effort.

Ahh well that’s not Crosby’s career high. You brought up Crosby’s rookie numbers in a slightly inflated scoring environment, and not the 2014 year where he lapped the league in scoring by nearly 20% more points than the 2nd place player. You know, the actual low scoring environment that people were bringing up? The one that occurred in his prime and not his rookie season?

If you want to confine it to individual seasons being 3.11 to 3.18 over the past three seasons, and compare them with the three lowest of Crosby’s 9 seasons that he could stay on the ice for, 2.84, scoring is 10.6% higher for McDavid. McDavid outscored him by 28.8%, while being older in two of the three seasons. This is also ignoring the higher PPO Crosby was afforded.

I could get real ugly about it and keep going, but what’s the point?

Yeah that’s what people would like you to do, but then you’d have to actually do the math to adjust for scoring, and not whatever terrible napkin math you are trying to do.

 

[daver]

They don’t get out of round 2 without McDavid scoring 21 points in 12 games

That’s the point

Has Crosby ever scored 21 points over 12 games in the playoffs? What’s his very best 12 game stretch?

First two rounds:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Nine goals vs. two goals.

Best 12 game stretch:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

12 goals in 12 games

 

[Killswitch]

Oilers may have had the same success if they drafted Jack Eichel 1oa in 2015

Impossible to know


I wonder when modern coaches will try to adapt that strategy with mcdavid? Sounds smart

Hasn't won a cup yet so something seems to be working

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I wonder when modern coaches will try to adapt that strategy with mcdavid? Sounds smart

I think they will. I think that modern coaches see McDavid as the best player in the game. I think 15 years ago coaches thought the same about Crosby.

However I’m arguing they are on a similar tier, with McDavid having a slightly higher offensive output.

I'm not understanding the team arguments, as it’s pretty clear the oilers have surrounded McDavid with more offensive talent when he is on the ice then Crosby ever had in his career, but that just once again illustrates how different they are as players.

Crosby certainly played a more ‘grind you out’ style, and was one of the best around the net garbage goal players of all time. I simply just don’t see McDavid going to the dirty areas and winning as much as Crosby. Crosby was much harder to win a board battle against.

Both fantastic players. I get McDavid is the new love, and Crosby is old news, but not old enough to be nostalgic about, so he is getting dunked on a bit. There is nobody who is levels above Crosby though. He was the perfect hockey player.

 

[bobholly39]

Oilers may have had the same success if they drafted Jack Eichel 1oa in 2015

Impossible to know

Yes. It literally is. They may even have had more success if they never drafted either/or.

You can predict individual results in a "what if" scenario to a certain extent - and then you can of course comment on actual team results and player's impact on those (ie, McDavid with smythe but no cup, Crosby with 3 cups and what you feel that means for both players) - but trying to predict a "what if" scenario and tying it to a team result is absolutely impossible.

So I have no idea if Oilers would have won the cup if you swap out McDavid for peak Crosby last year. Maybe, maybe not.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Crosby the grinder

Here’s a great video of prime Crosby for those that didn’t see him and are wondering how he played ‘differently’ than other stars. We see him steal the puck along the boards in the first sequence push it out where it gets lost, then he crashes his net and saves the puck on the goal line.

Next shift he steals the puck from Spezza, along the boards, and and absolutely jukes him and loses him around the net, gets it back out, and with the entire defense keyed on him, they get caught out of position for a goal from the point.

 

[Frank Drebin]

First two rounds:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Nine goals vs. two goals.

Best 12 game stretch:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

12 goals in 12 games

Ok fair enough

Crosbys very best 12 game stretch equaled this random 12 game stretch from mcdavid to start these playoffs

If you take Crosby at his very best he is equal to mcdavids random 12 game stretch

 

[crosbyshow]

They don’t get out of round 2 without McDavid scoring 21 points in 12 games

That’s the point

Has Crosby ever scored 21 points over 12 games in the playoffs? What’s his very best 12 game stretch?

...he did exactly that in 2018...21 points in 12 games and Was beat the Pens anyway in 6 in the second round.

 

[Frank Drebin]

...he did exactly that in 2018...21 points in 12 games and Was beat the Pens anyway in 6 in the second round.

With the clown show series vs the flyers rd 1. Forgot about that

 

[GreatGonzo]

Some people watched the games where Babcock line matched Crosby against Lidstrom and Rafalski, and shadowed him with Z, and said the entire game plan was to shut down Crosby.

Some people just look at the stats 15 years later with no context and make a snarky comment. We know who you are.

This is interesting. It’s simply more excuses Crosby fans love to throw at him any time he falls short.

So basically what your saying is Detroit’s defense and match ups were to much for the great Sidney Crosby and he couldn’t rise to the occasion? Something many are accusing McDavid of lacking…

McDavid: 7-3-8-11 +5
-not a TRUE leader
-no points in games 6 and 7
-only cared about stacking points
-didn’t show up when it mattered

Crosby: 7-1-2-3 -3
-REAL leader
-better “all around” player
-wasn’t his fault, Detroit was too good
-“its not all about scoring”

 

[KevinRedkey]

Some people watched the games where Babcock line matched Crosby against Lidstrom and Rafalski, and shadowed him with Z, and said the entire game plan was to shut down Crosby.

Some people just look at the stats 15 years later with no context and make a snarky comment. We know who you are.

One guy said McDavid sucked because his stats sucked. I replied with Crosby's stats (which were worse) in almost exactly the same situation, which is essentially using that person's argument against them. Then, you reply the above.

Funny you bring up context and then miss out on it entirely with your reply. Lol

 

[dukeofjive]

How many cups did Gretzky win when he left the oilers?

How many cups did the oilers win after Gretzky left?

 

[hamzarocks]

Sure you can - which is why Bobby Orr only won the Hart 3 times in 8 healthy seasons (and he only won the Pearson 1 time in 5 opportunities). The people who were there said Esposito, Clarke, Beliveau, Mikita, Parent, and Vachon were at times more valuable than Orr.

Same goes for Mario who won 3 Harts in 17 seasons - because other players were often better than him - including Gretzky, Jagr, Messier, Hull, Liut, Bourque, Roy, Kariya, Hasek, and Sakic.

Crazy how Orr has 8 healthy season argument for him but Lemieux had 17 seasons apparently lol

Lemieux in his 30s in 2001 was better than 08 OV, 14 Crosby and anyone else you want to bring in

Lemieux is undisputed, and untouchable as a player. He won 6 rosses in 9-10 healthy years

Hes the 2nd best player ever on a per game basis after 99

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lemieux in his 30s in 2001 was better than 08 OV, 14 Crosby and anyone else you want to bring in

2014 Crosby - sure. But 2014 wasn't anywhere near Crosby's best season (which was 2010). But 2008 Ovechkin? - lol.

Lemieux wasn't even better than his own linemate in half season's worth of games that he bothered to play in.

Then he was under a PPG in the playoffs despite playing himself 24 minutes per game, and had 3 assists and no goals in his final 6 games. Had Lemieux tried to play a full season that year he would have rapidly diminished (obviously).

There is no way that was more valuable than peak Ovechkin.

 

[daver]

With the clown show series vs the flyers rd 1. Forgot about that

That's been the Oilers playoff MO in the McDavid era - try to Out-clown show their opponent.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

This is interesting. It’s simply more excuses Crosby fans love to throw at him any time he falls short.

So basically what your saying is Detroit’s defense and match ups were to much for the great Sidney Crosby and he couldn’t rise to the occasion? Something many are accusing McDavid of lacking…

Crosby was so great that even if he wasn't scoring, Detroit knew that taking a single resource of Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Z(their best players) to matchup against Malkin's line would be a mistake. Penguins got to enjoy the luxury of keeping Staal on the 3rd line, and Malkin on the 2nd line. Oilers didn't have that luxury. Drai sucked in the finals and RNH had to be moved around.

McDavid: 7-3-8-11 +5
-not a TRUE leader
-no points in games 6 and 7
-only cared about stacking points
-didn’t show up when it mattered

Odd narrative. Strawman? Most people recognized McDavid just came off one of the greatest post seasons of all time. Not sure where you are getting these bullet points from.

Crosby: 7-1-2-3 -3
-REAL leader
-better “all around” player
-wasn’t his fault, Detroit was too good
-“its not all about scoring”

Well, Crosby is a leader. But again you are framing it in a way that makes it seem like the majority are arguing McDavid didn't step up in that department a huge amount the last couple seasons. Crosby was fantastic and still drew the toughest matchups. So if he fell off a cliff like Draisaitl and no longer had Babcock wasting Lidstrom/Rafalski pairing minutes on Crosby and sacrificing Z's offense so he could shadow Crosby you have a point. But I think causing the wings to waste all their resources on Crosby allowed players like Talbot to become the hero.