Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[OtherThingsILike]

What?

Do you even know the sport of hockey? Maybe you're talking about Cricket or softball instead?

Because in the NHL - top end competition in the league is one of the absolute strongest it's ever been.

No it isn't. There are about five players today who are actually capable of winning an Art Ross Trophy. And two of them are McDavid and his teammate.
During Crosby's peak, there were about a dozen. We know this in part because the Art Ross races were closer then, even if you take out the eventual Art Ross winner.

And it's stronger today than it was during Crosby's best years.

Furthermore, the goaltending of today is significantly weaker than it used to be. Part of this has to do with rule changes regarding goaltending equipment and also how players play defense. However, the way goaltending is taught nowadays seems to lead to a lot of good goalies, but very few great ones. Crosby's best years saw Henrik Lundqvist in his division and Carey Price in the other division in the conference. Plus goalies such as Martin Brodeur, Dominik Hasek (both past their primes, but still very good), Braden Holtby, and Sergei Bobrovsky.
Defensive play is harder to quantify, but suffice it to say there are no players currently who compare to Datsyuk and prime Bergeron for defensive forwards, and no Lidstrom-level defensmen today.

And furthermore to that: The goalies who are good today? Most of them are in the Eastern Conference. Same with the best of the defensive forwards.

 

[norrisnick]

That's great. Solidly top 10 all time player. We want to talk top 5 he needs a cup lol doesn't matter how.

If it doesn't matter how, it doesn't matter that it happened.

 

[Haatley]

That has...nothing to do with anything?

No. Breaking records and scoring points but not leading your team to the championship doesn't matter.

 

[daver]

I have McDavid right there with Lemieux/Orr and above Howe (assuming he continues a great career).

Crosby was never, at any point, on that level of player.

And that’s not a shot at Crosby, he’s top 10 of all time, but there’s a noticeable gap between the big 4 (now top 5) and the rest

I guess Draisaitl, Kucherov, MacKinnon and Matthews are there on Mario's and Orr tier too?

All of them had better were as good as McDavid at different times. You cannot say that about Mario and Orr.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

No. Breaking records and scoring points but not leading your team to the championship doesn't matter.

I guess Jarome Iginla was a bad leader, huh

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

No. Breaking records and scoring points but not leading your team to the championship doesn't matter.

So if his teammates score goals and win the game in game 6 or 7 like Crosby's did when he won his that would make McDavid the better hockey player ?? Make it make sense

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Crosby is my guy until McDavid proves otherwise.

Note: I'm a Flyers fan.

 

[Haatley]

So if his teammates score goals and win the game in game 6 or 7 like Crosby's did when he won his that would make McDavid the better hockey player ?? Make it make sense

Ask mcdavid which he would prefer.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Ask mcdavid which he would prefer.

Nice so an emotional response that has nothing to do with what I said , sounds like you take the L here. Thanks

 

[daver]

Because in the NHL - top end competition in the league is one of the absolute strongest it's ever been. And it's stronger today than it was during Crosby's best years.

Higher scoring environments inflate the point totals of the elite scorers. Lower scoring environments bring parity. Crosby played in arguably the toughest scoring environment since 1967 (or before) from 2012 to 2017.

Look at the TOI for the league's best scorers from that time period to the last three seasons. Lower scoring games means tighter hockey and more balanced shifts.

 

[Haatley]

Nice so an emotional response that has nothing to do with what I said , sounds like you take the L here. Thanks

Crosby is a far better all around player than McDavid. What he does on the defensive side of the ice is something McDavid should be doing to help win championships. You can compare points all you want. Crosby played in a different era of scoring at the beginning of his career, had some terrible injuries and still dominated the league.

 

[crosbyshow]

Tough question to answer cause Crosby's prime was cut short at 23 years old and he basically missed 2 seasons and noboby knows for sure how it affected his career offensively.

Just before his concussion he was on pace for 135 points ( 66 points in 40 games) in an era with way less goals in 2011.

He missed 1/2 season at 23...almost en entire season at 24.

 

[pi314]

Peak Crosby years or his best years he wouldn't even have gotten 153 points though.

first 9 Seasons for Crosby 1.27 points per game average
first 9 seasons for Mcdavid 1.52 points per game average.

Its more they are the same tier. they are the same tier. Crosby does certain things better and an argument could be make for Mcdavid doing certain things better.

They. Shrunk. Goalie. Equipment.

Ever notice how 1 guy used to break 100 points and now we have 15?

 

[Frank Drebin]

Paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs of Crosby fanboys being WRONG McDavid won the poll quite easily

poll results are trash

You could have a poll saying which is better to have, a single $100 bill or a $50 and two $20s and we’d have some votes for the second option.

Because that’s what they happen to have in their wallet, or they don’t have either but dislike the guy with the $100 bill more.

Having $90 is great.
Having $100 is better.

 

[Video Nasty]

Crosby is a far better all around player than McDavid. What he does on the defensive side of the ice is something McDavid should be doing to help win championships. You can compare points all you want. Crosby played in a different era of scoring at the beginning of his career, had some terrible injuries and still dominated the league.

What was Crosby doing on the defensive side of the ice in 2009 when he left Game 7 early and didn’t play the rest of the game while his team went on to win?

 

[Frank Drebin]

They. Shrunk. Goalie. Equipment.

Ever notice how 1 guy used to break 100 points and now we have 15?

Scoring titles, harts, Lindsay’s etc should be similar then?

 

[Video Nasty]

Tough question to answer cause Crosby's prime was cut short at 23 years old and he basically missed 2 seasons and noboby knows for sure how it affected his career offensively.

Just before his concussion he was on pace for 135 points ( 66 points in 40 games) in an era with way less goals in 2011.

He missed 1/2 season at 23...almost en entire season at 24.

Crosby started off the 2010-2011 season with 15 points in his first 13 games and then rode a brilliant 25 game hot streak. He then went scoreless for 2 games before getting knocked out in game 41. It’s naive and way too generous to think that was the new normal for him. Pace doesn’t mean shit, unless you’re Gretzky, Lemieux, and to a lesser degree, McDavid, who at least has proved he can score at a high pace year in and year out, half after half of each regular season.

 

[Frank Drebin]

The poll asks "is McDavid in a different tier". Around 64% of voters have said no, he isn't.

And - he isn't. You're the one in the wrong here FYI.

But hey - at least you're not a completely lost cause - you do root for the right team after all

Do this years oilers have the same success with Crosby in whatever year he was at his best?

Do the oilers have better playoff success in any previous years with the best version of Crosby?

Answer is no.

Mcdavid is the better, more dominant player of the two

By default, that puts him on a different tier

 

[daver]

Do this years oilers have the same success with Crosby in whatever year he was at his best?

Do the oilers have better playoff success in any previous years with the best version of Crosby?

Answer is who the hell knows.

Mcdavid is the better, more dominant player of the two

By default, that puts him on a different tier

Fixed for you.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Fixed for you.

Crosby couldn’t win without elite goaltending like the pens got in 16 and 17.

In 2009 he was the second best player on his team

The answer is clearly no

Crosby started off the 2010-2011 season with 15 points in his first 13 games and then rode a brilliant 25 game hot streak. He then went scoreless for 2 games before getting knocked out in game 41. It’s naive and way too generous to think that was the new normal for him. Pace doesn’t mean shit, unless you’re Gretzky, Lemieux, and to a lesser degree, McDavid, who at least has proved he can score at a high pace year in and year out, half after half of each regular season.

Imagine if Matthews got hurt at the 40 game mark this year

“He could have scored 89 goals!”

 

[crosbyshow]

Crosby started off the 2010-2011 season with 15 points in his first 13 games and then rode a brilliant 25 game hot streak. He then went scoreless for 2 games before getting knocked out in game 41. It’s naive and way too generous to think that was the new normal for him. Pace doesn’t mean shit, unless you’re Gretzky, Lemieux, and to a lesser degree, McDavid, who at least has proved he can score at a high pace year in and year out, half after half of each regular season.

I said on pace for 135..never wrote that he would have done that....but 125 points was clearly possible..

The year after 37 points in 22 games...so we clearly missed his prime and when he came back he was not as fast and he had big problems with his cardio.


Look at Crosby in 2011 and in 2013....he was not the same at all. Before his concussions he was like a pitbull on the ice and he was everywhere...after he paced himself a lot more.

So sad in a way

 

[Video Nasty]

Crosby couldn’t win without elite goaltending like the pens got in 16 and 17.

In 2009 he was the second best player on his team

The answer is clearly no


Imagine if Matthews got hurt at the 40 game mark this year

“He could have scored 89 goals!”

It’s extremely obnoxious. These guys don’t get that the pace argument is pointless when someone like Matthews who seemed on track to pot 70 all season long, still fell just short. When he has 68 goals in 78 games with 3 remaining and fails to tally the extra goal, how can people in good faith argue that pace is valid after sample sizes of 41 and 22 games?

 

[daver]

Crosby couldn’t win without elite goaltending like the pens got in 16 and 17.

In 2009 he was the second best player on his team

The answer is clearly no

Dumb argument. The Oilers don't reach the SCF in 2024 without Draisaitl's performance in Round 1 and 2.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Dumb argument. The Oilers don't reach the SCF in 2024 without Draisaitl's performance in Round 1 and 2.

They don’t get out of round 2 without McDavid scoring 21 points in 12 games

That’s the point

Has Crosby ever scored 21 points over 12 games in the playoffs? What’s his very best 12 game stretch?

 

[Video Nasty]

Dumb argument. The Oilers don't reach the SCF in 2024 without Draisaitl's performance in Round 1 and 2.

It’s a team game. The only reason anyone brings up these points at all is because of all the fans in hockey history, Crosby fans seem to be the only ones convinced that he has the power to single-handedly win those Cups.

Besides, it’s a fact. Crosby doesn’t win in 2016 putting up 3 goals and 11 points in 19 games during Rounds 2-4 or in 2017 leading (tied) his team in scoring during a lone round (6 points in 7 games), without sparkling all around goaltending.

If someone can pile up 42 points in a playoff run, factor in on half their team’s offense, and play sound defense, and still lose, then it should people in that every player on the roster matters.