Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Offtheboard412]

Also the timing of the injury. The McDavid knee injury happened at the end of the year while the team missed the playoffs. He worked his ass off to get back for the start of the next season, but if it had happened halfway through the year he would have missed all those games. His other major injury was as a rookie so it doesn’t affect him as much since he wasn’t going to win any awards other than the Calder that year anyway.

Crosby getting injured in the middle of the season while playing the best hockey of his career is just terrible timing. Then it being misdiagnosed causing him to barely play the following year. Then the broken jaw in the shortened year the following year instead of in a full season hurts him again, as he missed 13 games including one playoff game, and if he played 69 of 82 regular season games he probably wins the Art Ross and Hart. He’s played in 92% of his team’s games outside of those 3 years so he’s not exactly a Malkin or Forsberg in terms of staying healthy.

Yeah when you take into account that Crosby's biggest injury was exacerbated by the medical staff it becomes clear that the injury prone label that followed him for a while was mostly undeserved. He's been mostly healthy since then. It's just unfortunate that it cost him so much time because it makes every other injury that much more costly for him. The ankle injury his 3rd year cost him a pretty decent shot at the Art Ross, the puck to the jaw in 2013 robbed him of a Hart and Art Ross. The mumps in 2015 cost him 5 games and probably a scoring title (wouldn't have been a strong win by any means but considering how much of a hard on some posters have for trophy counting it definitely would have meant something.) Then in 16/17 when he was playing his best hockey in years he gets yet another concussion that cost him a shot at a Ted Lindsay and possibly even a scoring title. Without the original concussion/neck issues these injuries wouldn't be such a big deal but they end up being costly missed opportunities for him because of it.

 

[nbwingsfan]

It would improve his legacy at the end of his career yes. Derek Ryan didn't do that though so here we are with a still cupless McDavid in reality.

That makes absolutely no sense but okay.

In reality we have a record setting performance by him and a playoff MVP.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

That makes absolutely no sense but okay.

In reality we have a record setting performance by him and a playoff MVP.

That's great. Solidly top 10 all time player. We want to talk top 5 he needs a cup lol doesn't matter how.

 

[ChaosAgent]

McDavid needs to "check the box" of a Cup to move ahead. Do I think he will? Yes.

McDavid is consistently at a level of offensive dominance that Crosby did not show, or wasn't able to show as his absolute peak was cut short by injuries (2011-2013). McDavid is the scarier and more impactful player.

But in comparison to the guy who won 3, you gotta win one. Not 3, just one.
I can't think of a player in any sport who is considered in the top 2-3 ever without his team hoisting the trophy once. Maybe Barry Bonds for the folks who don't disqualify him because of steroids.

 

[pi314]

You mean like how Crosby won 3 cups while never leading his team in post season scoring.

Would you mind reading the bolded part again?

McDavids 2022 season was proof of the different tiers they are in. Crosby never came close to leading the league in goals and assists in the same season. Gretzky did it, Lemieux did it, Howe did it, and now McDavid did. That is the tier of forwards above Crosby.

Fun fact, if you combined Crosbys best ever playmaking season (84 assists), with Ovechkins best ever goal scoring season (65)

You get: 65-84 = 149
McDavid by himself in 2022: 64-89-153

You have to combine Crosby with the other generational talent from his era to make him equal McDavid lol, seriously tho... McDavids Art Ross + Hart count: 8, Crosby & Ovechkins Art Ross + Hart count: 8! (in 38 combined seasons compared to McDavids 9 seasons!)

It's not been close for a while now. McDavid is a tier by himself in the cap era.

How do you explain the part where they shrunk goalie pads and we went from 1 guy breaking 100 points to 15?

It’s very easy to hoodwink average joes with raw point totals.

Then let’s not even get to the part where there’s a whole game without the puck.

 

[QJL]

Where is the equal option? I have them in the same tier right now.

 

[nbwingsfan]

That's great. Solidly top 10 all time player. We want to talk top 5 he needs a cup lol doesn't matter how.

Very confused how it’s as simple as “win a cup” somehow makes any difference.

As I pointed out, it’s absolute lunacy that people would consider him a higher tier of a player if Derek Ryan scored 2 goals in game 7 and they won the same way Talbot scored 2 goals for the Pens in 2009.

It has exactly zero relevance on either guy as a player

Would you mind reading the bolded part again?



How do you explain the part where they shrunk goalie pads and we went from 1 guy breaking 100 points to 15?

It’s very easy to hoodwink average joes with raw point totals.

Then let’s not even get to the part where there’s a whole game without the puck.

How would smaller pads affect Crosby never winning the Ross and Rocket in the same season?

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Very confused how it’s as simple as “win a cup” somehow makes any difference.

As I pointed out, it’s absolute lunacy that people would consider him a higher tier of a player if Derek Ryan scored 2 goals in game 7 and they won the same way Talbot scored 2 goals for the Pens in 2009.

It has exactly zero relevance on either guy as a player


How would smaller pads affect Crosby never winning the Ross and Rocket in the same season?

I am not asking you to agree with me lol I don't particularly care whether you do or not to be honest. I think if someone is going to be elevated into the conversation of the literal greatest to ever play a professional sport....winning a league title is a requirement. I don't care if you disagree with that. You aren't going to change my mind.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Where was Crosby in 2009 game 7?

Where was he in 2008 game 6?

Where was he in 2017 game 6?

Mcdavid for a 1 game sample over anyone ever in the history of hockey

Mcdavid rested and needing to play 1 game is more dangerous than 99, 66, 4, 9

That post escalated quickly and really got out of hand

 

[pi314]

How would smaller pads affect Crosby never winning the Ross and Rocket in the same season?

I don’t explain it.

Sid has won every trophy at every level that matters. Including the ones you’re asking about. And a bunch of international ones too.

What’s the special significance if it’s in one season or over a career?

Is that some arbitrary measure of greatness?

Nikola Tesla said scientists would work so hard to develop mathematical formulas that they would lose sight of the real thing they were studying in the first place.

We’re there with hockey and points.

People quote points and think they just spoke hockey gospel.

It’s a tool, not the whole story.

In the finals, McDavid won 2 games by himself.

Also had 5 mediocre games by his standards.

The players are paid to win.

Not pile on stats in 2 games.

Obviously he’ll learn as he’s one of the best ever.

I’ve seen Sid block a shot with the Stanley Cup on the line.

May have saved a goal. Maybe not.

Either way, kept his team out of danger when it mattered most.

No point for that.

But isn’t winning the point?

 

[GreatGonzo]

I don’t explain it.

Sid has won every trophy at every level that matters. Including the ones you’re asking about. And a bunch of international ones too.

What’s the special significance if it’s in one season or over a career?

Is that some arbitrary measure of greatness?

Nikola Tesla said scientists would work so hard to develop mathematical formulas that they would lose sight of the real thing they were studying in the first place.

We’re there with hockey and points.

People quote points and think they just spoke hockey gospel.

It’s a tool, not the whole story.

In the finals, McDavid won 2 games by himself.

Also had 5 mediocre ones.

The players are paid to win.

Not pile on stats in 2 games.

Obviously he’ll learn as he’s one of the best ever.

I’ve seen Sid block a shot with the Stanley Cup on the line.

May have saved a goal. Maybe not.

Either way, kept his team out of danger when it mattered most.

No point for that.

But isn’t winning the point?

Crosby had 5 mediocre games In ‘09, while going pointless in games 6 and 7, and barely played in game 7. They still won

Crosby had 3 mediocre games in ‘16, where he only had 4 assists in the finals. They still won.

Crosby In 2017 went scoreless in game 6. They still won.

Again, it’s interesting the criticism you give McDavid….yet Crosby is really no better.

McDavid had assisted on 3 of the Oilers 4 goals in the first 3 games. He then went into a different gear. Did he score in games 6 and 7? No, but it’s funny….when it comes to Crosby, the usual excuse is “defense”, but when it’s McDavid, it’s “mediocre”.

 

[WaitingForThatCab]

We're voting on Crosby at his peak vs McDavid at his peak? No. Nope.

As much as I dislike Sidney Crosby, absolutely not.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Crosby rarely ever had the phrase “since Gretzky and Lemieux” attached to his accomplishments. McDavid has been doing this on a season to season basis for awhile now. That’s the difference between the two players and it’s pure pigheadedness to argue against it at this point.

Crosby just tied a Gretzky record this past season, and has the chance to break it next season.

Not low enough to make up for the massive difference in those point totals.

Yes it is.

McDavid outscored Crosby by 48 points while playing 1 fewer game in their age 27 seasons. How can one spin being outscored by 57% when scoring is only 14% higher now in 2023-2024 compared to 2014-2015?

The top-end competition (that McDavid actually faces) is significantly weaker now than it was back in 2014-15.

It matters little to me that Crosby dominated less against inferior competition.

Crosby's competition was by far superior to what McDavid is seeing now. The top-end competition in the league is weaker now than it's been since at least the 1980s, and possibly even since the Original Six era.

Furthermore, while there are still good high-end players, most of them are in the Eastern Conference. Not only does McDavid have it much easier than Crosby did during Crosby's prime, McDavid has it much easier than Crosby does even today.

 

[lawrence]

We're voting on Crosby at his peak vs McDavid at his peak? No. Nope.

As much as I dislike Sidney Crosby, absolutely not.

Peak Crosby years or his best years he wouldn't even have gotten 153 points though.

first 9 Seasons for Crosby 1.27 points per game average
first 9 seasons for Mcdavid 1.52 points per game average.

Its more they are the same tier. they are the same tier. Crosby does certain things better and an argument could be make for Mcdavid doing certain things better.

 

[Frank Drebin]

There's far too much analysis of who did what when and how, bottom line is McDavid doesn't have a Cup. No one's saying he's not a great player but comparing him to a Champion is ridiculous. Stop allowing, making and creating excuses for this guy and demand more. When it matters the most, he doesn't show up and until that changes, I'm sticking with Crosby. What good is winning all these awards and scoring all those goals and this and that if you don't win it all?

McDavid needs a coach that will instill courage, resolve and the willpower to win in him, because he clearly lacks those qualities, and I don't know why but that irritates the living hell out of me.

Holy f*** this is just an all around terrible, obnoxious post

 

[Offtheboard412]

Peak Crosby years or his best years he wouldn't even have gotten 153 points though.

first 9 Seasons for Crosby 1.27 points per game average
first 9 seasons for Mcdavid 1.52 points per game average.

Its more they are the same tier. they are the same tier. Crosby does certain things better and an argument could be make for Mcdavid doing certain things better.

Idk where you got your numbers but Crosby after 9 seasons was at 1.39 ppg.

 

[lawrence]

Idk where you got your numbers but Crosby after 9 seasons was at 1.39 ppg.

my bad. thanks for the correction.

 

[villacco]

Idk where you got your numbers but Crosby after 9 seasons was at 1.39 ppg.

It is even 1.40 points
769 points in 550 games

So they are very close statistically.
McDavid is basically 0.1 assists ahead. In a higher scoring era.
They are both outstanding scorers in their first 9 years.
I personally consider Crosby more well rounded and McDavid flashier.

I would take a Peter Forsberg over a Pavel Bure every day of the week for a cup winning team.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

It´s a team sport. These cup arguments are silly especially since Crosby didin´t perform any better than McDavid in the playoffs, arguably he was worse.

 

[Video Nasty]

Crosby just tied a Gretzky record this past season, and has the chance to break it next season.

Yes it is.

The top-end competition (that McDavid actually faces) is significantly weaker now than it was back in 2014-15.

Crosby's competition was by far superior to what McDavid is seeing now. The top-end competition in the league is weaker now than it's been since at least the 1980s, and possibly even since the Original Six era.

Furthermore, while there are still good high-end players, most of them are in the Eastern Conference. Not only does McDavid have it much easier than Crosby did during Crosby's prime, McDavid has it much easier than Crosby does even today.

So, to sum it up, Crosby played in a magical fantasy land where everyone who came before and everyone who came after, can never be greater than him.

“That McDavid actually faces.” Anyone else of reminded of that prior nonsense of “on an NHL goalie?”

 

[OtherThingsILike]

So, to sum it up, Crosby played in a magical fantasy land where everyone who came before and everyone who came after, can never be greater than him.

No? Crosby isn't the greatest player ever.

“That McDavid actually faces.”

It's a reference to the fact that the average player, the fourth-liners and third-pairing defensemen - those players have gotten better in recent years. However, unless a coach messes up somewhere, neither McDavid nor Crosby are going to be on the ice with those players all that often.

Anyone else of reminded of that prior nonsense of “on an NHL goalie?”

I'm not sure what this is referring to? Is it a reference to the terrible goaltending of the Pacific Division and the Western Conference in general from 2019-2023 or so?

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs of Crosby fanboys being WRONG McDavid won the poll quite easily

 

[bobholly39]

Crosby just tied a Gretzky record this past season, and has the chance to break it next season.

Yes it is.

The top-end competition (that McDavid actually faces) is significantly weaker now than it was back in 2014-15.

Crosby's competition was by far superior to what McDavid is seeing now. The top-end competition in the league is weaker now than it's been since at least the 1980s, and possibly even since the Original Six era.

Furthermore, while there are still good high-end players, most of them are in the Eastern Conference. Not only does McDavid have it much easier than Crosby did during Crosby's prime, McDavid has it much easier than Crosby does even today.

What?

Do you even know the sport of hockey? Maybe you're talking about Cricket or softball instead?

Because in the NHL - top end competition in the league is one of the absolute strongest it's ever been. And it's stronger today than it was during Crosby's best years.

This is an absolutely horrible take you have.

 

[bobholly39]

Paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs of Crosby fanboys being WRONG McDavid won the poll quite easily

The poll asks "is McDavid in a different tier". Around 64% of voters have said no, he isn't.

And - he isn't. You're the one in the wrong here FYI.

But hey - at least you're not a completely lost cause - you do root for the right team after all

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Go ask connor if he would rather have more points or a championship.

That has...nothing to do with anything?