Is Cale Makar a generational talent?

[Pablo El Perro]

I would ask how much you saw Lidstrom in his prime.

I've seen him enough to know he was great. I wouldn't call him generational. Same with Makar.

 

[authentic]

Robinson doesn't get enough respect. He was a unique player. And my point has nothing to do with comparing Makar to Potvin or Bourque, or whoever else. Just saying he isn't any better than his peers as they were. The comparison of Makar to McDavid above proves how silly the generational argument is.

I was just comparing them for fun. I get where you're coming from.

Wow, Just checking out old +/- stats, Robinson was a +502 over an 8 season stretch. Potvin didn't come anywhere close to that playing in the same era for instance also on a stacked dynasty team. Not sure how much that means really just thought it was quite interesting.

I would ask how much you saw Lidstrom in his prime.

A lot. He was never in consideration for best player in the game really, although he had some tough competition at forward. Conversely a lot of his domination among his defensive peers was due to slightly worse competition.

 

[benfranklin]

Go ahead and argue it if it's easy. I could argue Jagr was better than his peers for a decade, but I'm not calling him generational. I don't think any defenseman was obviously generational other than Orr. And that's not a slight on any other defensemen.

7 Norris's over an 11 year span. 6 in 7 years. Done

I think Jagr is as well and he did it in the hardest era to score as well as continued it post lockout in a completely different league playing at an mvp level. You can go watch his Pens/Caps goals and more often than not he is hooked and slashed all over with what would be an instant penalty in todays game.

 

[authentic]

7 Norris's over an 11 year span. 6 in 7 years. Done

I think Jagr is as well and he did it in the hardest era to score as well as continued it post lockout in a completely different league playing at an mvp level. You can go watch his Pens/Caps goals and more often than not he is hooked and slashed all over with what would be an instant penalty in todays game.

Jagr is underrated. Besides his obvious dominance through his prime this is a guy who played a huge part in a Cup win as a teenager while not being overshadowed by a prime Lemieux, and who came top 20 in points as a 44 year old outscoring a young Barkov just under a decade ago. No forward has had this type of longevity as an impact player in the NHL besides Howe.

 

[Koivu11]

So is there like 10 generational players in the league now? The term has completely lost its meaning.

Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid, Matthews, Kucherov, MacKinnon, Makar, Bedard, Michkov - all have been called generational.

 

[benfranklin]

Jagr is underrated. Besides his obvious dominance through his prime this is a guy who played a huge part in a Cup win as a teenager while not being overshadowed by a prime Lemieux, and who came top 20 in points as a 44 year old outscoring a young Barkov just under a decade ago. No forward has had this type of longevity as an impact player in the NHL besides Howe.

Exactly. Most dont realize how good he was for those Flyer and Panther teams.

 

[GrandmaCookie]

So is there like 10 generational players in the league now? The term has completely lost its meaning.

Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid, Matthews, Kucherov, MacKinnon, Makar, Bedard, Michkov - all have been called generational.

Say a gen is 20 years

Crosby, Ovechkin = 2005-2025 gen
McDavid, Matthews, Kucherov, Mackinnon, Makar 2015-2035 gen
Michkov, Bedard = 2025-2045 gen

And you get 1 generational player by generation. Than you get Crosby/Ovechkin (too close for a winner), McDavid, the youngin TBD.

We could argue that generational only applies by position, so Makar could be in the mix then.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Not yet... But I'd say he definitely has a chance.

He's off to a pretty good start this year relative to the usual Norris contenders. I'd say if he can keep going and wins the Norris this year it would go a long way towards that generational status.

For now despite all the Norris finalists and being the consensus #1 guy in the league... He does still only have a single Norris Trophy. I'd have to think to be truly generational he's gonna need 3-4 by the time he retires.

So is there like 10 generational players in the league now? The term has completely lost its meaning.

Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid, Matthews, Kucherov, MacKinnon, Makar, Bedard, Michkov - all have been called generational.

Nah. Crosby, Ovechkin are generational from one generation. The next group of guys didn't join the league until almost 10 years later or longer in some cases.


I'd say Sid and Ovy are generational. McDavid is generational. Makar might become generational.


The rest are all the upper echelon of truly elite, but not quite generational.

 

[benfranklin]

Say a gen is 20 years

Crosby, Ovechkin = 2005-2025 gen
McDavid, Matthews, Kucherov, Mackinnon, Makar 2015-2035 gen
Michkov, Bedard = 2025-2045 gen

And you get 1 generational player by generation. Than you get Crosby/Ovechkin (too close for a winner), McDavid, the youngin TBD.

We could argue that generational only applies by position, so Makar could be in the mix then.

I like those years. I made my generations pages back and when the game shifted stylistically:

Generation 1 - 6 team league until 67-68 - Howe
Generation 2 - 1968 until Gretzky - Orr
Generation 3 - Crazy 80s to early 90s - Gretz and a hint of Lemieux
Generation 4 - Dead Puck Era (95-05) - Lemieux/Jagr/Hasek
Generation 5 - Post lockout until McDavid - Lidstrom/Sid/Ovi
Generation 6 - McDavid to present - McDavid/Makar

Then can make an argument for us still being in Generation 6 or starting 7 with Bedard, but I'd say we need McDavid to regress before the next one starts and obviously that hasnt happened.

 

[GrandmaCookie]

Not yet... But I'd say he definitely has a chance.

He's off to a pretty good start this year relative to the usual Norris contenders. I'd say if he can keep going and wins the Norris this year it would go a long way towards that generational status.

For now despite all the Norris finalists and being the consensus #1 guy in the league... He does still only have a single Norris Trophy. I'd have to think to be truly generational he's gonna need 3-4 by the time he retires.




Nah. Crosby, Ovechkin are generational from one generation. The next group of guys didn't join the league until almost 10 years later or longer in some cases.


I'd say Sid and Ovy are generational. McDavid is generational. Makar might become generational.


The rest are all the upper echelon of truly elite, but not quite generational.

This begs the question, who were the generational player from the gen before Crosby/Ovechkin?

Meaning 1990-2010? I think Jagr definitely fits the bill. Maybe Lidstrom too? (Of course not mentionning Lemieux)

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

This begs the question, who were the generational player from the gen before Crosby/Ovechkin?

Meaning 1990-2010? I think Jagr definitely fits the bill. Maybe Lindstrom too? (Of course not mentionning Lemieux)

It's hard to say for sure because scoring is so different era to era.


I think you have to include Lidstrom as generational though. 7 Norris trophies is simply ridiculous. Even if a couple of them were maybe reputation based, that's still 4-5 well deserved wins.


I'd say Jagr is probably another one.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I like those years. I made my generations pages back and when the game shifted stylistically:

Generation 1 - 6 team league until 67-68 - Howe
Generation 2 - 1968 until Gretzky - Orr
Generation 3 - Crazy 80s to early 90s - Gretz and a hint of Lemieux
Generation 4 - Dead Puck Era (95-05) - Lemieux/Jagr/Hasek
Generation 5 - Post lockout until McDavid - Lidstrom/Sid/Ovi
Generation 6 - McDavid to present - McDavid/Makar

Then can make an argument for us still being in Generation 6 or starting 7 with Bedard, but I'd say we need McDavid to regress before the next one starts and obviously that hasnt happened.

Lidstrom was drafted in 1989, one year before Jagr, and was 35 years old during Crosby's rookie season. Putting him in that generation, when he's clearly from the DPE, seems like an odd choice to me.

But, I guess if we put him in the DPE and compare him against the guys that consistently outperformed him until they were 35+, like Bourque and Chelios and McInnis, it's a little harder to call him generational.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Agree to disagree. He was the far above his peers for a solid 10+ season span. That to me is generational.

Do you mean "peers" as in other defensemen or "peers" as in other players? If he was far above the other players, he would have won a Hart, which he was never even close to.

I don't mean to diminish Lidstrom, he's one of the best defensemen of all time, but I think just how NHL gives out awards and rates players would keep him out of being a "generational" player. I think Orr is considered the only generational defenseman and I honestly don't know if there is a generational goalie. I think there are only about 7 generational players and I think 6 of them are forwards.

I'm honestly 50/50 on whether I consider Jagr a generational player, and if Jagr isn't making the cut I don't think Lidstrom makes the cut.

 

[wintersej]

Do you mean "peers" as in other defensemen or "peers" as in other players? If he was far above the other players, he would have won a Hart, which he was never even close to.

I don't mean to diminish Lidstrom, he's one of the best defensemen of all time, but I think just how NHL gives out awards and rates players would keep him out of being a "generational" player. I think Orr is considered the only generational defenseman and I honestly don't know if there is a generational goalie. I think there are only about 7 generational players and I think 6 of them are forwards.

I'm honestly 50/50 on whether I consider Jagr a generational player, and if Jagr isn't making the cut I don't think Lidstrom makes the cut.

You aren’t in consideration for generational if you don’t have multiple Harts. Trying to put someone without a single one in the conversation is a joke.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Do you mean "peers" as in other defensemen or "peers" as in other players? If he was far above the other players, he would have won a Hart, which he was never even close to.

I don't mean to diminish Lidstrom, he's one of the best defensemen of all time, but I think just how NHL gives out awards and rates players would keep him out of being a "generational" player. I think Orr is considered the only generational defenseman and I honestly don't know if there is a generational goalie. I think there are only about 7 generational players and I think 6 of them are forwards.

I'm honestly 50/50 on whether I consider Jagr a generational player, and if Jagr isn't making the cut I don't think Lidstrom makes the cut.

I agree, Jagr was always considered better than Lidstrom so if Jagr isn’t generational, Lidstrom isn’t.

And using that same logic, Bourque, Potvin, Harvey and arguably Shore would also be considered generational before Lidstrom would be.

As for Makar, it’s not out of the question to say his peak play has surpassed Lidstrom’s (but still lags behind Bourque and Potvin) but Lidstrom’s value came from his consistent “prime” play for a decade, which Makar hasn’t matched yet.

Also Lidstrom was extremely dominant defensively whereas Makar’s defensive play has actually declined the past couple of seasons. There’s a pretty large gap between them defensively at this point.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

I mean Makar has 1 Norris and people act like he is generational. Total domination needs to happen for the next 10 years to make it realistic.

 

[The Panther]

Generation 1 - 6 team league until 67-68 - Howe

This is historically incorrect.

 

[amigo]

Goodbye Cale indefinitly incoming.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I've only seen six generational players in my lifetime:

* Gretzky
* Lemieux
* Lindros
* Crosby
* Ovechkin
* McDavid

 

[Muffin]

Seems to me the bar to be generational for a defenseman is a lot higher than a forward considering the only "consensus" generational defenseman is Orr.