Is 4 Nations a “Best on Best”?

[Gerulaitis]

To be fair, Czechoslovakia never had a true ‘A’ team at any of Canada Cups in the 1980’s. Same for Soviet Union in ‘76 and ‘91.

This is interesting. I perfectly remember most of the their players from those days. Pasek, Hrdina, Benak, Ruzicka, Volek...The coolest name was VLK (I think it means "wolf")

Which top players were missing in the 1980s? Maybe Nedomansky ? Klima and Pivonka in 87? Bubla?

Peter Stastny would have been a great addition. But he chose Canada

 

[JackSlater]

I always find it quite annoying when people reduce the Czech success of Nagano to just Hasek. Yes, Hasek was the best goalie around at that time, and I think he was pretty much responsible for the quarter final win against the US, I'll give you that. The Czechs won 4-1, but in the first period they played poorly and the US was far superior. Yet the US only scored once and led 1-0 after that period. Without Hasek the US would have put the game beyond the Czechs in the first 20 minutes.

But against Canada the Czechs were the better team. Hasek obviously contributed, but the team overall was better and Canada was extremely lucky to get to overtime. They scored a very flukey goal a minute and a bit before the end. The only game that was unbalanced in the whole tournament for the Czechs where the goalie really won it for them was against the US. The shots on goal reflected how good both America and Hasek were - 39-19 shots on goal for the Americans. Of course, the Czechs still had to score and they did it four times (no empty-netter), but Hasek was THE key. In the other games he performed brilliantly as well, but so did the whole team. Shots on goal in the semi final and final were completely balanced (the Czechs outshot Canada 31-30 and Russia 21-20, so basically even, and the stats reflected the balance of play between the teams). In round robin, they beat Finland 3-0 and outshot them 29-17, Kazakhstan 8-2 (45-23) and lost to Russia 1-2 (24-31). It was a fantastically put together team with Hasek being a key performer, but also very much part of a fantastic team set-up. The number of times Canadians have told me "your guys only beat us because of Hasek!". If an American said that to me, I can't disagree. But nobody from the countries of the other Czech opponents in Nagano.

This is true, things get simplified and then the big picture is lost. Hasek gets all the credit but things played out as you said. Against Canada the Czechs were better, as in the skaters, for the first 55 minutes of the game. They generally outplayed Russia in the gold medal game too. This does not mean that Hasek was short of excellent, but it is not accurate to put it all on Hasek.

The same thing happens with Buffalo and the 1999 playoffs. Hasek is the best goaltender ever so he MUST have carried Buffalo. People don't care that as crappy as Buffalo's offence generally was, it was the best offensive team (goals per game and consistency) in the playoffs until the finals. Must have been Hasek, who was indeed excellent, all on his own.

We saw a lot of Czech success post 1998 and Hasek certainly was not around for all of it.

 

[Czechboy]

Sure, the Czechs played well that tournament. But do not discount what playing in front of the world best (all time in my opinion) can do for a team. Confidence to play knowing most mistakes will be covered.

Hasek was in the middle of an 8 year run that might only be rivaled by Gretsky. That team on paper had absolutely no business being as good as they were and having Hasek was a HUGE part of their overperformance.

Canada had a HOF goalie in net.
Another HOF goalie on the bench. And the third goalie was Curtis Joseph.

Hasek was the MVP no doubt but that was 7 games to Gold and a team effort.

What gets us Czechs pissy is when we hear it was just Hasek or how we played to a shootout in a game we never trailed in.

Hell TSN calls our 3 worlds, 1 Olympic and back to back jr gold's the 'hasek years'. He only played in one of those tournaments lol. Worst narrative in sports.

 

[NyQuil]

Canada had a HOF goalie in net.
Another HOF goalie on the bench. And the third goalie was Curtis Joseph.

Hasek was the MVP no doubt but that was 7 games to Gold and a team effort.

What gets us Czechs pissy is when we hear it was just Hasek or how we played to a shootout in a game we never trailed in.

Hell TSN calls our 3 worlds, 1 Olympic and back to back jr gold's the 'hasek years'. He only played in one of those tournaments lol. Worst narrative in sports.

On the other hand, he’s largely regarded as the greatest goalie in that history of hockey.

Legends tend to have a life of their own.

 

[Czechboy]

On the other hand, he’s largely regarded as the greatest goalie in that history of hockey.

Legends tend to have a life of their own.

Don't tell Roy that. Hasek is certainly in the conversation no doubt.

 

[NyQuil]

Don't tell Roy that. Hasek is certainly in the conversation no doubt.

Meh, I like Roy a great deal but I think he's #2.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Canada had a HOF goalie in net.
Another HOF goalie on the bench. And the third goalie was Curtis Joseph.

Hasek was the MVP no doubt but that was 7 games to Gold and a team effort.

What gets us Czechs pissy is when we hear it was just Hasek or how we played to a shootout in a game we never trailed in.

Hell TSN calls our 3 worlds, 1 Olympic and back to back jr gold's the 'hasek years'. He only played in one of those tournaments lol. Worst narrative in sports.

You can be pissy about things that are true. (I'm talking about the 1998 Olympics only)

Hasek was at a completely other level than any other goalie at that time. No doubt the Czechs played well in front of him but that team on paper is not a top 3 team.

Do you think it is coincidence that your most impressive hockey achievement happened during the greatest goalie run of all time?

 

[NyQuil]

You can be pissy about things that are true. (I'm talking about the 1998 Olympics only)

Hasek was at a completely other level than any other goalie at that time. No doubt the Czechs played well in front of him but that team on paper is not a top 3 team.

Do you think it is coincidence that your most impressive hockey achievement happened during the greatest goalie run of all time?

The Czechs were a machine at that time.

What was more infamous than their goalie was their ability to play as a five man unit.

Collectively they were always stronger than the sum of their parts.

They never panicked, they played solid two way hockey shift after shift. They were comfortable and even relished playing in tight games.

Hasek is the greatest of all time but that’s not the singular reason why they won.

Through the first three periods of the game, Canada was outshot by the Czechs, 25-22.

Canada was the better team in OT and then we all know what happened in the shootout.

 

[Czechboy]

you think it is coincidence that your most impressive hockey achievement happened during the greatest goalie run of all time

Yea I do.

But please explain how he helped us win those 2 world Juniors and 3 world championships playing as an adult in Buffalo?

 

[NyQuil]

Yea I do.

But please explain how he helped us win those 2 world Juniors and 3 world championships playing as an adult in Buffalo?

If there was a criticism of Czech hockey at the time, it’s almost as if their top talent suppressed their individual on-ice styles too much.

Guys like Jagr and Reichel were more unrecognizable on the ice because they did their jobs in a more cog-like replaceable way.

Anyway, you can’t argue with the results.

Jagr definitely looked like Jagr in the 2004 World Cup.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Yea I do.

But please explain how he helped us win those 2 world Juniors and 3 world championships playing as an adult in Buffalo?

Did you miss the part where I said that I was only talking about the Olympics?

WJC & WC are much more random and are not comparable to a best on best.

Also, WTF does World Junior Play have to do with Senior Championships?

The Czech team played very well as a 5 man group. This is undeniable. However, anyone who has watched alot of hockey knows that Teams play better in front of a hot Goalie. Confidence is a huge factor to play.

There are two players on the Czech roster who make Team Canada's roster. Jagr and Hasek. How many times in 100 do you think that roster beats USA, Canada or Russia with Cechmanek in nets?

 

[Silky Johnson]

Don't tell Roy that. Hasek is certainly in the conversation no doubt.

Take any 8 year period of Roy's career and it pales to the stretch that Hasek put up.

1996-99 might be the best 3 consecutive years ever played by someone not named Gretsky or Orr...maybe just Gretsky.

Roy was consistently great over a long time but Hasek had a much, much better peak.

 

[Czechboy]

If there was a criticism of Czech hockey at the time, it’s almost as if their top talent suppressed their individual on-ice styles too much.

Guys like Jagr and Reichel were more unrecognizable on the ice because they did their jobs in a more cog-like replaceable way.

Anyway, you can’t argue with the results.

Jagr definitely looked like Jagr in the 2004 World Cup.

Agreed.. growing up we had so many unique players that played different. Klima, jagr, havlat and Petr rosol all come to mind. Probably all drove their coaches nuts but had a 'flare'.

Then we went 2 decades of Tomas Plekanice Lite type players (2 way games, not much offence) and Ladislav Smid types (block shots, play hard).

We are starting to get some flair back now with Necas and Pasta. I feel Jiricek will also be a rather unique D whenever he finally sticks.

Somewhere we lost our creativity.

Jagr was always an odd NT player.. his .ppg was the polar opposite of his NHL stats.lol When he was 2 ppg in NHL he was sub 1ppg on NT. when he eventually dipped in NHL his NT .ppg went up.

BUT

Going back to Nagano.. he didn't get points but when he stepped on the ice... the puck was far from Hasek and he was doing amazing things but not scoring. Similar to Pasta in 2024 Worlds (yes, weaker comp) but he didn't get any points till the golden goal but his line was tilting that ice. It was actually Necas running the points show and man is he an odd player to watch. Probably my fav in the world right now.

One exception was Hemsky - man he was fun! But never had that shining NT moment.

 

[Czechboy]

Did you miss the part where I said that I was only talking about the Olympics?

WJC & WC are much more random and are not comparable to a best on best.

Also, WTF does World Junior Play have to do with Senior Championships?

The Czech team played very well as a 5 man group. This is undeniable. However, anyone who has watched alot of hockey knows that Teams play better in front of a hot Goalie. Confidence is a huge factor to play.

There are two players on the Czech roster who make Team Canada's roster. Jagr and Hasek. How many times in 100 do you think that roster beats USA, Canada or Russia with Cechmanek in nets?

Do you think it is coincidence that your most impressive hockey achievement happened during the greatest goalie run of all time?

I think I did misinterpret what you wrote to be honest. I see what you are saying now. I don't agree but I get it.

Cechmanek was a damn good goalie btw. Vezina nominee. So probably a few times in the late 90's and early 00's.

I'd be pretty confident playing with team Canada's roster with Roy in net. What was that, 14 Hall of Famers?

And the 'how many guys would make our team argument' is always a fun one. Eg. Finn's have had much more best on best Olympic success than Russia yet their posters are constantly pointing out how few of those Finn's would make their rosters. Turns out it's a team game and it doesn't matter much. Or else all 5 Olympic Finals would've been Canada vs US.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Do you think it is coincidence that your most impressive hockey achievement happened during the greatest goalie run of all time?

I think I did misinterpret what you wrote to be honest. I see what you are saying now. I don't agree but I get it.

Cechmanek was a damn good goalie btw. Vezina nominee. So probably a few times in the late 90's and early 00's.

I'd be pretty confident playing with team Canada's roster with Roy in net. What was that, 14 Hall of Famers?

And the 'how many guys would make our team argument' is always a fun one. Eg. Finn's have had much more best on best Olympic success than Russia yet their posters are constantly pointing out how few of those Finn's would make their rosters. Turns out it's a team game and it doesn't matter much. Or else all 5 Olympic Finals would've been Canada vs US.

My point is that Canada, the USA & Russia had much better talent at that time with Canada icing 18 HOF (by my rough count) players.

Do you think that having the hottest player in the world playing the most impactful position wasn't the difference in the tournament?

If not you are overestimating the Czechs margin of victory or underestimating Hasek's (0.97 GA .961S%) impact.

 

[NyQuil]

My point is that Canada, the USA & Russia had much better talent at that time with Canada icing 18 HOF (by my rough count) players.

Do you think that having the hottest player in the world playing the most impactful position wasn't the difference in the tournament?

If not you are overestimating the Czechs margin of victory or underestimating Hasek's (0.97 GA .961S%) impact.

You’re underestimating how good the Czechs were at team defence.

You might have a case if the Czechs were roundly outplayed or outshot in the tournament.

They weren’t.

 

[Czechboy]

My point is that Canada, the USA & Russia had much better talent at that time with Canada icing 18 HOF (by my rough count) players.

Do you think that having the hottest player in the world playing the most impactful position wasn't the difference in the tournament?

If not you are overestimating the Czechs margin of victory or underestimating Hasek's (0.97 GA .961S%) impact.

Yet we beat all 3 in a row. Talent and winning are not the same thing. Those 5 best on bests proved that in spades. Most medals were the Finns. Canada didn't even medal in 2 of them. Russia didn't win one. USA didn't win one. Hockey is not played on paper and never has been.

US in quarters
Canada in semis
Russia in finals

What do the Czechs in 1998 have to do to convince you they were just as good? They ran the table and beat the top 3 seeds in a row!

You want to contribute that to one guy, that is your choice. I don't agree.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Yet we beat all 3 in a row. Talent and winning are not the same thing. Those 5 best on bests proved that in spades. Most medals were the Finns. Canada didn't even medal in 2 of them. Russia didn't win one. USA didn't win one. Hockey is not played on paper and never has been.

US in quarters
Canada in semis
Russia in finals

What do the Czechs in 1998 have to do to convince you they were just as good? They ran the table and beat the top 3 seeds in a row!

You want to contribute that to one guy, that is your choice. I don't agree.

Only one of those was a best on best. Last time I counted Canada has won like 9-11 best on best (depending on how you count) Czechs have won one and are tied for second.

You don't have to agree but neither do I.

 

[Silky Johnson]

You’re underestimating how good the Czechs were at team defence.

You might have a case if the Czechs were roundly outplayed or outshot in the tournament.

They weren’t.

I'd be interested in seeing statistics on high danger scoring chances but can't find them. I'll rewatch the game.

I think you are underestimating what it is like to play in front of Prime Hasek. Think back to how much better the 05-06 Sens looked when Hasek was playing...and that was a lesser Hasek.

 

[Silky Johnson]

What do the Czechs in 1998 have to do to convince you they were just as good? They ran the table and beat the top 3 seeds in a row!

I think the 1998 Czechs were good. They played a great team game and get full marks for the win. They did what only 3 other teams have done - beat a team Canada in a tournament with a fully available (in principal) roster.

I just think that having the best goaltender ever, playing in his peak had alot to do with it and was what gave them the edge.

That is not a controversial statement considering the margin of victory.

 

[wetcoast]

This is interesting. I perfectly remember most of the their players from those days. Pasek, Hrdina, Benak, Ruzicka, Volek...The coolest name was VLK (I think it means "wolf")

Which top players were missing in the 1980s? Maybe Nedomansky ? Klima and Pivonka in 87? Bubla?

Peter Stastny would have been a great addition. But he chose Canada

Nedomansky was done by the late 70s.

bubla I guess could have been serviceable but watching him with the canucks he was past his prime as well.

 

[Czechboy]

I thought of an analogy for the best on best argument.

Imagine if at the end of the NHL season they picked the 4 best rosters and started in the semi finals. The other 12 teams don't get invited.

They only invite the top 4 based on best looking paper rosters.

Why invite Vancouver or Detroit when they won't win it? Just go right to the final four and save everyone some time. Then declare that they Stanley Cup champion...

 

[Fatass]

Yes. The Four Nations was clearly the best on best. Those are the top four countries.