International tournament goalie performances that rival 1998 Hasek?

[MadLuke]

Probably not, that was a suffocating team.

And they did not face the 1981 soviet team, outside Kane for example who would compete on that squad to be a top 5 american forward ?

Parise could have but got derailled.

alfredsson-Sedins by 2014 that was not great fire power, incredible defense, Lundqvist, etc... good team but nothing special to score goals.

 

[bobholly39]

That one is hard to place

2 goals in 3 games during qualification.

playoff round
2-1
1-0
3-0

0 goal against in 8 Olympics period straits.

Was there ever a better defensive team relative to the competition faced ?

Canada defense was really, really good in 2014. No question.

But - he still faced a lot of shots. 31 in semis, 24 in finals....it's not like some super lopsided game where it was only ~10-15 shots.

I haven't watched the games since 2014 - but I do recall that a lot of the shots were quite difficult ones, with some breakaways, or 2 on 1s...so, he did really have some great games, not just easy ones.

I have no problem putting Hasek 1998 above it. Team strength alone makes the case for Hasek. But I'm not sure about any other better peformances than Price for #2.

 

[MadLuke]

There also a bit of Price making it look natural and easy that could have been going on, the way he moved and controlled rebounds during that peak, he was so much in control all tourney long that maybe he participated into that view of the best defensive performance of all time.

They always had the lead and always looked like they would win but that was because they never gave a bad goal... and we are talking 2-1, 1-0 type of wins, so it could not feel that way with shaky goaltending.

To give an example I had to check, but in my memory Crosby made it a 2-0 game that felt very hard to turn around much sooner than in reality, I thought it was in the first period, it was past the 30:00 minute mark. Early in the morning time-zone difference game that bound to create strange memory of it, but there something probably true about more in control than the score would indicate, which could be all created ad-hoc, bad bounce and puck goes in, same play, same players, etc... and I remember it all differently.

But a bit like 2016 world cup and Canada giving away only 8 goals in 6 games (Price 7 in 5, .957%), it is not just that Canada was particularly good defensively, but that the top competition felt subpar versus the 80s-90s, they did not face a team Canada or Soviets level offense.

 

[Dingo]

I agree about Backstrom, that was stupid. But it's strange to me how often it comes up, almost without fail about 2014. Late prime versions of Sedin and Zetterberg weren't going to suddenly make Sweden anything other than clearly the worse team. Other teams have won and lost tournaments with bigger roster losses.

its not how good those players were then compared to Beliveau or Gretzky, lol.

Its how crucial they were to having any sort of chance.

Iirc, Patrik Berglund became their number one center. Game over.

I disliked Backstrom being removed as it wrecked the gold medal game. The silver lining was that Canada's depth of talent played a huge role, and its doesnt always get to.

We had three centers arguably as good or better than Sedin, Zetterberg and Backstrom also not playing, but still had 4 good centers.

 

[Dingo]

"He did ok" haha, regarding Hasek in 98. Yes, he had a good defensive team in front of him, He absolutely played well, though, Thats just silly.

I will mention Antero Niittymaki in 2006, just because its a feelgood story to me.

As soon as Kipper dropped out I figured they were done. The Finnish coach said, and I use this with kids now, "The player we want is the player who wants to play for us"

Then they built a strong defence in front of him and came within a whisker of Gold, and Niittymaki wins best goalie and tournament MVP.

Pretty badass, and far above his career-proven ability. The product of belief, unity and a positive approach..... maybe Sisu, too..... and probably some good luck, lol.

 

[JackSlater]

its not how good those players were then compared to Beliveau or Gretzky, lol.

Its how crucial they were to having any sort of chance.

Iirc, Patrik Berglund became their number one center. Game over.

I disliked Backstrom being removed as it wrecked the gold medal game. The silver lining was that Canada's depth of talent played a huge role, and its doesnt always get to.

We had three centers arguably as good or better than Sedin, Zetterberg and Backstrom also not playing, but still had 4 good centers.

Countries have won and lost with as much and more talent out, but those three get brought up almost without fail. Specifically in this case, a poster cited that they couldn't rate Price because the 2014 versions of Zetterberg, Sedin, and Backstrom didn't play. It's not Gretzky, Lemieux, and Beliveau sitting out, or even Forsberg and Sundin. They weren't going to light Price up for four, five, or six goals. I also think I recall that Price was somewhat hurt by the end of that tournament and missed a bit of time after the 2014 Olympics.

 

[MadLuke]

Backstrom-Sedin were Top 10 in pts the next season, as people that will point out to Kariya-Sakic missing (or even retired not in the nhl Lemieux) we can have some sympathy.

And there is 2 different conversation, was Canada lucky to win because of injury, did they face great offensive team making shutting them down great accomplishment, if we say 2014 Zetterberg-Sedin-Backstrom were not really great player and yet were in their top 6 before injury, that would be a good argument about the second part.

Hasek faced team USA-Canada-Russia

Russia scored 7 goals against finland the game before, Canada is always greatish, 1998 USA some of the big name had turned 30 by then and did not had that great of a turney, but it was still 2xHatcher-Leetch-Chelios-Scheinder-Suter passing puck to the Modano-Lafontaine-Roenick-Weight-Hull/LeClair/Guerin/Amonte/Tkachuk that could score.

 

[Dingo]

Countries have won and lost with as much and more talent out, but those three get brought up almost without fail. Specifically in this case, a poster cited that they couldn't rate Price because the 2014 versions of Zetterberg, Sedin, and Backstrom didn't play. It's not Gretzky, Lemieux, and Beliveau sitting out, or even Forsberg and Sundin. They weren't going to light Price up for four, five, or six goals. I also think I recall that Price was somewhat hurt by the end of that tournament and missed a bit of time after the 2014 Olympics.

So, Price had a great tournament. Case closed.


..................



Berglund
Steen
Kruger
Eriksson (winger)

is something that would never get you to a Gold Medal game in the first place.

thats why people bring it up.

Backstrom isnt better than 90s Gretzky. But, when thats what you are left with as a center core, and if 90s Team Canada has Mario, Sakic, Yzerman and Messier... then, actually, Backstrom becomes more essential than Gretzky.

I would have bet on that Team Canada to win 4/5 against Sweden if Sweden had Backstrom and Zetterberg, plus Steen and Berglund. But without those two - there is no way they could ever win.

Its like, to my on topic post in this thread - if Niitymaki was injured in 2006, along with his backup, and they had to put Koivu in net - people would say that the tournament was over, too bad, wish he hadnt got injured, that game was a waste of time, etc. They wouldnt be saying that Niitymaki is Roy or Brodeur, but his value to that team is the difference between having some chance to having no chance.... so, like, infinitely different.

 

[The Panther]

Richter at the 1996 World Cup. That was probably the best hockey he ever played, and he was on a Hall of Fame track at that point.

 

[JackSlater]

So, Price had a great tournament. Case closed.


..................



Berglund
Steen
Kruger
Eriksson (winger)

is something that would never get you to a Gold Medal game in the first place.

thats why people bring it up.

Backstrom isnt better than 90s Gretzky. But, when thats what you are left with as a center core, and if 90s Team Canada has Mario, Sakic, Yzerman and Messier... then, actually, Backstrom becomes more essential than Gretzky.

I would have bet on that Team Canada to win 4/5 against Sweden if Sweden had Backstrom and Zetterberg, plus Steen and Berglund. But without those two - there is no way they could ever win.

Its like, to my on topic post in this thread - if Niitymaki was injured in 2006, along with his backup, and they had to put Koivu in net - people would say that the tournament was over, too bad, wish he hadnt got injured, that game was a waste of time, etc. They wouldnt be saying that Niitymaki is Roy or Brodeur, but his value to that team is the difference between having some chance to having no chance.... so, like, infinitely different.

It isn't worth bringing up every time the 2014 Olympics come up. Other teams have lost finals with bigger losses. Won as well. It is strangely unique to Sweden at the 2014 Olympics, when it very likely made no difference anyway. It is especially strange to bring it up here and state that Price can't be rated because those three, in their 2014 versions, weren't there. I don't even think that Price is an answer to the thread, it is just a strange point to bring up at all.

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's a tiny bit fun with Price...many people that like to evaluate goaltenders have lamented that Carey Price was stuck on a middling-or-so Montreal team for his whole career. It wasn't the worst situation, but it wasn't overly tenable. The level of dominance he could have had if he were in Boston or Nashville or even late career with the Islanders or what have you...

The little bit of time that we saw him outside of Montreal against the top of his class:
2016 World Cup 5-0, 1.47, .957
2014 Olympics 6-0, 0.59, .972
2007 WJCs 6-0, 1.14, .961

17-0, a ~1ish GAA, .960ish save pct. (just eyeballing those numbers).

I get it's a small sample, I get it's Canada...but compared to guys like Dryden, even Brodeur...this was a peerless run.

 

[Dingo]

It's a tiny bit fun with Price...many people that like to evaluate goaltenders have lamented that Carey Price was stuck on a middling-or-so Montreal team for his whole career. It wasn't the worst situation, but it wasn't overly tenable. The level of dominance he could have had if he were in Boston or Nashville or even late career with the Islanders or what have you...

The little bit of time that we saw him outside of Montreal against the top of his class:
2016 World Cup 5-0, 1.47, .957
2014 Olympics 6-0, 0.59, .972
2007 WJCs 6-0, 1.14, .961

17-0, a ~1ish GAA, .960ish save pct. (just eyeballing those numbers).

I get it's a small sample, I get it's Canada...but compared to guys like Dryden, even Brodeur...this was a peerless run.

ya, kinda feast or famine.

Not any time spent on simply 'a GOOD team'

 

[Hallzy]

Antero Niittymaki was pretty incredible in the 06' Olympics after stepping in for Kipper and Lehtonen with 3 shutouts in 6 games while winning MVP

 

[sonic92]

Justin Pogge and the 2006 World Juniors.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Justin Pogge and the 2006 World Juniors.

The performance that made Toronto say "we cant trade him" and to deal Rask to the Bruins instead for Raycroft.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Richter at the 1996 World Cup. That was probably the best hockey he ever played, and he was on a Hall of Fame track at that point.

At the end of the 97 playoffs, if you polled a bunch of hockey players/executives/fans, I'd wager the vast majority would say that Richter would end up being a HOFer. I also imagine he was closer in esteem at that point to a Belfour than he was to the group that ultimately ended up being his peers in the all-time rankings (Vernon, Barrasso, etc.). 94 and the 96 WC were by far his biggest highlights, but his year-in-year-out consistency up until that point is often overlooked in hindsight.

It's such a shame how the back half of his career turned out with all the injuries, inconsistency, and horrific teams in front of him. He still did have bright moments (e.g., 2002 Olympics). A real tale of two careers.

 

[carjackmalone]

Jack McCartan

 

[Run the Gauntlet]

Richter at the 1996 World Cup. That was probably the best hockey he ever played, and he was on a Hall of Fame track at that point.

Im from NY and i never saw Richter as a HOF. Too many flops in the playoffs 1991, 1992, 1995, 1996 and the really bad 1993 rs when he was sent back to the minors for retraining.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Other teams have lost finals with bigger losses. Won as well.

I’m trying to think of a single example. I guess you’re hyper focusing on name recognition, aren’t you? Of course Stamkos was a bigger name in 2014, Kiprusoff in 2006, Roy in 2002, Lemieux and Bourque in 1996, Salming in 1984 and so on, but you seem to willfully ignore the point. Did any team make a run to the finals of a best-on-best with losses remotely equivalent to Patrik Berglund defaulting into the top center slot?

I do get that you’re not high on the 2013-14 versions of Sweden’s centers, but with the exception of Sedin who had a down year, they were all top 10 in points per game among centers around this time period.

And between 2012-13 and 2014-15, they are 8th, 9th and 14th in points per game among centers. Bäckström and Zetterberg scored at a rate similar to Datsyuk and Seguin, Sedin at a rate similar to Toews, Thornton, Kopitar and Pavelski. They aren’t Crosby/Malkin tier players, but certainly all-star level players at this point in time.

Berglund on the other hand was 107th, around Lars Eller and Cory Conacher.

Of course your sole point is that they’re just lackluster stars and that Lemieux is a bigger name than all of them, but even if Canada’s top three centers were Ron Francis, Pierre Turgeon and Rod’Brindamour heading into the 1996 World Cup, but Mike Ricci, Todd Marchant and Greg Parks come the finals, I’d say that team was quite badly gimped along the way and that we were robbed of the best possible finals.

 

[JackSlater]

I’m trying to think of a single example. I guess you’re hyper focusing on name recognition, aren’t you? Of course Stamkos was a bigger name in 2014, Kiprusoff in 2006, Roy in 2002, Lemieux and Bourque in 1996, Salming in 1984 and so on, but you seem to willfully ignore the point. Did any team make a run to the finals of a best-on-best with losses remotely equivalent to Patrik Berglund defaulting into the top center slot?

I do get that you’re not high on the 2013-14 versions of Sweden’s centers, but with the exception of Sedin who had a down year, they were all top 10 in points per game among centers around this time period.

And between 2012-13 and 2014-15, they are 8th, 9th and 14th in points per game among centers. Bäckström and Zetterberg scored at a rate similar to Datsyuk and Seguin, Sedin at a rate similar to Toews, Thornton, Kopitar and Pavelski. They aren’t Crosby/Malkin tier players, but certainly all-star level players at this point in time.

Berglund on the other hand was 107th, around Lars Eller and Cory Conacher.

Of course your sole point is that they’re just lackluster stars and that Lemieux is a bigger name than all of them, but even if Canada’s top three centers were Ron Francis, Pierre Turgeon and Rod’Brindamour heading into the 1996 World Cup, but Mike Ricci, Todd Marchant and Greg Parks come the finals, I’d say that team was quite badly gimped along the way and that we were robbed of the best possible finals.

Well yeah 1996 Canada would be an obvious example I suppose at the best on best level. Lemieux, Bourque, Kariya, Francis, MacInnis would be a better starting five than any country could put together at the time, or now. 1998 Russia was without Mogilny, Zubov, Malakhov, Khabibulin, and I believe others that I can't call to mind off the top of my head, plus Fedorov playing while very rusty during a holdout. And yet those tournaments can come up or be obliquely referenced, sometimes at least, without someone bringing up the missing players. The 2014 team cannot come up without Gretzky, Lemieux, and Beliveau the Swedish three being referenced, as if they were particularly likely to make a difference. It's particularly egregious here when it is suggested that Price couldn't be assessed because the 2014 versions of those players, who really didn't put a scare into anyone by that point while still being very good players, were not there. It gets tedious.

 

[Dingo]

Well yeah 1996 Canada would be an obvious example I suppose at the best on best level. Lemieux, Bourque, Kariya, Francis, MacInnis would be a better starting five than any country could put together at the time, or now. 1998 Russia was without Mogilny, Zubov, Malakhov, Khabibulin, and I believe others that I can't call to mind off the top of my head, plus Fedorov playing while very rusty during a holdout. And yet those tournaments can come up or be obliquely referenced, sometimes at least, without someone bringing up the missing players. The 2014 team cannot come up without Gretzky, Lemieux, and Beliveau the Swedish three being referenced, as if they were particularly likely to make a difference. It's particularly egregious here when it is suggested that Price couldn't be assessed because the 2014 versions of those players, who really didn't put a scare into anyone by that point while still being very good players, were not there. It gets tedious.

do you think you are at all being stubborn about this?

I am hoping that everyone else can see the difference between Canada's depth and Sweden's??

please?

to take it to extremes, if Slovenia lost Kopitar nobody would think they were close to at their best. If there was a guy saying, "I don't get it, its not like Kopitar is Gretzky" ...... he would ....... be being stubborn, i think.

Can other people see why Sweden losing their three top would all but destroy their ability to play at their best - REGARDLESS of where one ranks them on an alltime list??

 

[JackSlater]

do you think you are at all being stubborn about this?

I am hoping that everyone else can see the difference between Canada's depth and Sweden's??

please?

to take it to extremes, if Slovenia lost Kopitar nobody would think they were close to at their best. If there was a guy saying, "I don't get it, its not like Kopitar is Gretzky" ...... he would ....... be being stubborn, i think.

Can other people see why Sweden losing their three top would all but destroy their ability to play at their best - REGARDLESS of where one ranks them on an alltime list??

I am saying that it coming up seemingly every time is annoying because Sweden's 2014 situation isn't particularly unique - the only thing unique is that it only comes up for that one country. If posters want to keep quoting me to whine some more and advocate for their right to whine about three missing players without critique then I guess I'll reply, but it won't make the Swedish situation any more unique. Backstrom missing out due to a flimsy drug excuse is unique (and bad) but Sweden, a top tier hockey country, missing three forwards isn't all that noteworthy. Certainly not within the context of this specific topic. And yes, if we are going to pretend that these three players missing are going to render us unable to assess a goaltending performance in that tournament, then I expect we're talking about the likes of Gretzky, or even Ovechkin and Crosby level players, as opposed to the 2014 versions of the players in question.

Don't worry, I also noticed that you didn't touch the Russian example. And to add to that, the 1998 tournament can come up without a Russian or Russians invariably bringing up that Russia was without more than three key players in that tournament. For instance, no one suggested that Hasek in 1998 cannot be assessed because Russia was without various players in the final, but it was fairly predictable that Gretzky, Lemieux, and Beliveau the Swedish three would be mentioned even though their relevance to Price in 2014 is fairly limited.

 

[Dingo]

I am saying that it coming up seemingly every time is annoying because Sweden's 2014 situation isn't particularly unique - the only thing unique is that it only comes up for that one country. If posters want to keep quoting me to whine some more and advocate for their right to whine about three missing players without critique then I guess I'll reply, but it won't make the Swedish situation any more unique. Backstrom missing out due to a flimsy drug excuse is unique (and bad) but Sweden, a top tier hockey country, missing three forwards isn't all that noteworthy. Certainly not within the context of this specific topic. And yes, if we are going to pretend that these three players missing are going to render us unable to assess a goaltending performance in that tournament, then I expect we're talking about the likes of Gretzky, or even Ovechkin and Crosby level players, as opposed to the 2014 versions of the players in question.

Don't worry, I also noticed that you didn't touch the Russian example. And to add to that, the 1998 tournament can come up without a Russian or Russians invariably bringing up that Russia was without more than three key players in that tournament. For instance, no one suggested that Hasek in 1998 cannot be assessed because Russia was without various players in the final, but it was fairly predictable that Gretzky, Lemieux, and Beliveau the Swedish three would be mentioned even though their relevance to Price in 2014 is fairly limited.

The Russian team that scored 24 goals in 4 games vs not Hasek, and 2 in 2 vs Hasek?

Same team that scored the most goals in the tournament, by far?

Same team that scored 11 vs Finland, who allowed 2 vs Canada, 1 vs Sweden and 3 vs the Czechs?

Ya, i didnt think it was a very good example of a team who was offensively depleted, so i didnt address it.

Also, 'centers' not 'forwards'. If Sweden had been missing one center and two wingers it wouldnt have been the same problem at all. Its really quite simple and I won't repeat it again. I feel that the joke is on me at this point.

 

[JackSlater]

The Russian team that scored 24 goals in 4 games vs not Hasek, and 2 in 2 vs Hasek?

Same team that scored the most goals in the tournament, by far?

Same team that scored 11 vs Finland, who allowed 2 vs Canada, 1 vs Sweden and 3 vs the Czechs?

Ya, i didnt think it was a very good example of a team who was offensively depleted, so i didnt address it.

Also, 'centers' not 'forwards'. If Sweden had been missing one center and two wingers it wouldnt have been the same problem at all. Its really quite simple and I won't repeat it again. I feel that the joke is on me at this point.

I don't quite understand. How Sweden played never comes up just references to the tragedy of the team being without three players. Russia was without more than three players, and they were key players plus depth players. Miraculously the 1998 Olympics can come up without listing the tragedy of the Russians who weren't there. You hear more about the Canadian players who were missing (Lemieux, Kariya, Sakic, don't recall any others) in the semi-finals, which I guess satisfies the forward criteria you are now grasping at. Sweden's situation in 2014 is not particularly unique and is unworthy of how often it comes up... but even moreso in the manner it came up here, as if Price's goaltending performance is incomplete without having faced the mighty 2014 versions of Backstrom, Sedin, and Zetterberg.

But yes, there is a joke here and it is the repeated attempts to justify the whining surrounding what is a regular occurrence in international play. As it pertains to Price, who really isn't a contender in this thread in my opinion, it's such a bizarre grasp that it deserved comment. The repeated twisting and turning to try and... I don't even know... reserve the right to whine about the Swedish three without critique I guess, is weird. But not surprising.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

@JackSlater

I get that it’s unfair towards Price and Team Canada who won 2014 in brilliant fashion to continue bringing it up, but seriously, the snubs and otherwise missing players for every international tournament — the reasons Canada failed each time they didn’t win gold — they are brought up just as often I think you have to agree. Bobby Clarke and Marc Crawford, the shootout takers, the Zamuner selection, we know the reasons Canada failed in 1998.

I know you’re a regular in the international section and some Swedish posters there are really, really annoying, so I can sympathize with the kinda churlish reaction to hearing about the Swedish centers for the umpteenth time… But I still disagree it’s a situation very similar to other teams being depleted of talent. And with Bäckström being taken off just hours prior to the gold medal game, at the time it felt like the final nail in the coffin of a tournament that almost always was going to be frustrating and ultimately end in disappointment for Swedish fans, because one, two or three centers able to post top-10 numbers in the NHL is quite different from having Patrik Berglund on the first line, and wishing you hadn’t left Mikael Backlund and rookie Zibanejad off the team.

Were there more Russian posters around, I think perhaps we’d hear more about their players missing. Zubov at the time does seem like it would be a glaring issue considering their relative lack of talented blueliners. The thing about the likes of Lemieux, Sakic, Kariya missing is that while certainly those were bigger stars than any iteration of Sedin, Zetterberg and Bäckström, there are still prime versions of the likes of Lindros and Yzerman stepping into the top spots. And — again — it’s not as if the missing stars aren’t brought up every time we talk about these tournaments.

I’ve been longing to see a best-on-best Team Finland for years now given their prospective top-6 (and Heiskanen, Saros, and how they’ve performed with zero NHL-talent), but I’m not really liking their chances if Barkov, Aho and Hintz went out for the four nations tournament. I think that’s a pretty fair comparison to 2014 Sweden.