In Connie we Trust

[Lunatik]

Connie is 100% right. You straight up tank and you lose the players, if you're bad it needs to be organic, and if a trade involving someone with term the players have to be able to clearly see why the trade was made.

Like Markstrom, if we move him for Holtz, Vanecek and a 1st as some have speculated, it's a move that you see and it makes sense why Conroy would do it. But if we flipped Markstrom for a quantity type package, the players wouldn't get it because there needs to be quality in return.

 

[Straight Fire]

Conroy is the greatest leader in team history, on and off the ice.

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I was at his silver stick hockey game. I liked him as a player and captain. I like him now as a gm though he's still fairly green all things considered.

 

[Straight Fire]

At least we know he loves the team and loves the city and is committed to building something here. Not like a certain coward GM who shit his bed and stuffed the sheets in the bottom dresser drawer before high tailing it to Toronto.

If there's anybody that should have a good handle on this franchise's particular brand of brain damage it's Craig Conroy and Jarome Iginla. Whether they're up for actually fixing it or not remains to be seen but I like what he's done so far. Guess we'll see how his deadline goes. Not super sold on Huska either, big substitute teacher vibes.

Laughs aside, well said I agree.

 

[Straight Fire]

Are you kidding? The Toffoli and Lindholm trades were amazing.

We traded Toffoli when his value was at its highest with one year left on his contract for a 25 year old top-6 C/W who is on pace for 25+ goals and 55 points in year 1 while being forced to play center (where he doesn’t really fit imo). Sharangovich has so much more value right now than the late first that most fans were expecting. We can only hope guys like Pelletier and other late firsts develop into top-6 players with potential for more at age 25. Plus we got a 3rd. Value wise, he killed it. And extra credit to him for identifying a good young player in a bad situation when most fans couldn’t see the upside. You take that over a late first 10/10 times (see Emile Poirier, Klimchuk, Nemisz, etc.)

The only possible argument against the Toffoli trade being great is that we still needed more picks/prospects, which is why the Lindholm trade was unreal too. We got a 1st, a current top-6/9 winger who nearly scored 40 last year, a blue chip RD prospect, and two secondary picks/prospects. That is an absolute haul for a pending UFA having his worst season in years lol. Literally what more could you want? It checks every single box for me. And how on earth is the success or failure of that trade dependent on Kuzmenko? What about the 1st and A-/B+ prospect that is a huge return for any rental in itself? Plus another mid round pick and depth prospect AND THEN Kuzmenko who could easily secure a top-6 role here or get shipped for another pick next deadline. It’s insane Conroy got that much. I legit didn’t think we had a chance at getting a top prospect on top of the 1st for rental Lindy without extension, not to mention a bounce-back top-6 candidate too.

How can we not trust Conroy at this point? He’s proven to focus on youth, refuse to overpay our vets, and gets great value for our assets. Sure it’s too early to tell if he’s able to build a contender as well as he can sell assets, but based on his first few moves he clearly gets it. And that is all I can ask for as a fan after years of Brad being ‘in on everything’ but never getting anything done and not focusing on youth/building properly through the draft.

Well said about the value we got in those trades. Hard not to think Conroy did well if not amazingly there.

 

[Backlund]

The returns Conroy got for Lindholm and Toffoli are very overrated by a lot of you guys.

 

[herashak]

If Conny trades the best player in the org (Andersson) he better have a galaxy brain plan, dont know where that rumor came from but I get it from a maximize return standpoint

 

[Lunatik]

If Conny trades the best player in the org (Andersson) he better have a galaxy brain plan, dont know where that rumor came from but I get it from a maximize return standpoint

the rumor is teams are asking about Andersson, not that he's being shopped or is even available.

 

[BobColesNasalCavity]

I’m tired of it all. Just trade everyone Craig. Get it over with.

 

[MM917]

If Conny trades the best player in the org (Andersson) he better have a galaxy brain plan, dont know where that rumor came from but I get it from a maximize return standpoint

If Andersson is the best player in the organization that says it all about where this organization is when it comes to talent. That is terrible and I am not sure I can come up with a better player to counter that claim.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

The returns Conroy got for Lindholm and Toffoli are very overrated by a lot of you guys.

What did you expect for either guy…

I don’t even think it’s much of a debate that rental Lindholm’s value was around first+good prospect+cap dump, similar to Horvat. Conroy found a great RD prospect with upside whose value has been on the rise, a middle-6RW whose value was at rock bottom but could easily bounce back and have some value by next deadline, plus a 4th and another prospect. I prefer that return to Horvat’s. I also think Lindholm returned more than O’Reilly+Acciari despite O’Reilly having a much better playoff resume.

VAN 1st=TOR 1st
Brzustewicz>>late 2nd
Kuzmenko>>late 3rd (could easily bring back a 2nd/3rd with retention next year)
4th=4th

And that’s even before you consider Acciari’s value. I don’t see much of an argument of any recent trade that shows Craig didn’t get well above market for rental Lindholm. He got a haul. The only possible argument is if you’re low on Brzustewicz, but having watched him play a fair bit in Kitchener he’s a stud. Future 2nd pair RD and PP1 QB.

As for Toffoli, I just don’t know what more fans could’ve wanted. We got him for late 1st+B prospect when he had 2.5 years left on an amazing value contract and moved him for equivalent value as a rental. Even if you’re low on Sharangovich he’s still valued higher than a late 1st—there must be like a 10% chance a late 1st turns into a 25 goal, 50+ point top-6 player. What more did you possibly want for Toffoli? He’s an aging winger looking for a long term extension. He was never bringing back much more than late 1st+B prospect value, and Sharangovich is 5x more of a sure bet than a late first. That’s a win for me. Anyone expecting the moon for these guys that Brad walked right to UFA were kidding themselves. We had no leverage and got max value

 

[Turning Mangiapanese]

I'm pretty happy with Conroy, the UFA situation has been defused sensibly so far and the young guns have been given genuine opportunity in the NHL. But I can't honestly give him a grade before next season's training camp or so. It's one thing to sell off UFAs for assets but it's harder to use those assets wisely around the draft and free agency. Still plenty of ways for him to f*** things up (I'm optimistic though).
Also I really don't want to see us going into next year with Wolf in net and a 23/24 Sharks -level defence in front of him.

 

[Backlund]

What did you expect for either guy…

I don’t even think it’s much of a debate that rental Lindholm’s value was around first+good prospect+cap dump, similar to Horvat. Conroy found a great RD prospect with upside whose value has been on the rise, a middle-6RW whose value was at rock bottom but could easily bounce back and have some value by next deadline, plus a 4th and another prospect. I prefer that return to Horvat’s. I also think Lindholm returned more than O’Reilly+Acciari despite O’Reilly having a much better playoff resume.

VAN 1st=TOR 1st
Brzustewicz>>late 2nd
Kuzmenko>>late 3rd (could easily bring back a 2nd/3rd with retention next year)
4th=4th

And that’s even before you consider Acciari’s value. I don’t see much of an argument of any recent trade that shows Craig didn’t get well above market for rental Lindholm. He got a haul. The only possible argument is if you’re low on Brzustewicz, but having watched him play a fair bit in Kitchener he’s a stud. Future 2nd pair RD and PP1 QB.

As for Toffoli, I just don’t know what more fans could’ve wanted. We got him for late 1st+B prospect when he had 2.5 years left on an amazing value contract and moved him for equivalent value as a rental. Even if you’re low on Sharangovich he’s still valued higher than a late 1st—there must be like a 10% chance a late 1st turns into a 25 goal, 50+ point top-6 player. What more did you possibly want for Toffoli? He’s an aging winger looking for a long term extension. He was never bringing back much more than late 1st+B prospect value, and Sharangovich is 5x more of a sure bet than a late first. That’s a win for me. Anyone expecting the moon for these guys that Brad walked right to UFA were kidding themselves. We had no leverage and got max value

He got standard market returns for players that had to leave anyway. Lindholm really should've been traded at the draft but Conroy wanted to try to re-sign him for some stupid reason. He hasn't done anything special or worth praise. A couple of flawed middle 6 wingers, picks and prospects with question marks are hardly a reason to celebrate anything.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

He got standard market returns for players that had to leave anyway. Lindholm really should've been traded at the draft but Conroy wanted to try to re-sign him for some stupid reason. He hasn't done anything special or worth praise. A couple of flawed middle 6 wingers, picks and prospects with question marks are hardly a reason to celebrate anything.

I guess it just comes down to expectations then. All you can expect for two rental players is picks and prospects and young roster players. You’re never getting top line guys or elite potential prospects for rentals. I don’t know how you can expect anything more than he got. And again never said it’s time to celebrate, just that we can trust him to actually sell our pieces for futures and orchestrate a rebuild. Time will tell if he can take the next step and build a great young core though

 

[DomBarr]

Conroy hasn’t been on the job long enough to get the tag “In Conroy we trust” the last GM hit with that tag drove the team into mediocrity chasing WHL players with size.

He has done good on his trades not one has been a home run but when selling pending UFAs a team is never gonna win them.

What is a change and While he has possibly given a couple of key pending UFAs too much time to think about extending he has held the line in terms of both term and dollars for all of them and avoided negotiating against himself and then hugely overpaying to get them to stay.
He has done a decent job his rookie season

 

[MM917]

And that’s even before you consider Acciari’s value. I don’t see much of an argument of any recent trade that shows Craig didn’t get well above market for rental Lindholm. He got a haul. The only possible argument is if you’re low on Brzustewicz, but having watched him play a fair bit in Kitchener he’s a stud. Future 2nd pair RD and PP1 QB.

This is insanely overrating Brzustewicz. You must have a very broad definition of graet to include him as a great prospect. He isn't a top 50 prospect in the league maybe not even top 100. How is that great?

For Vancuver i think most lists had him 4/5 for them, in Calgary he is behind Wolf, Coronato, Honzek and probably Morin. There would be others you could debate but I don't see how he is higher than 4th at best at a stretch.

He is a fine prospect, it was the type of prospect you expect to get back in a Lindholm deal but great? Come on

And if he is a 2nd pairing PP QB1 defenseman Vancouver isn't moving him and other teams are offering up 1st round picks for him.

 

[joescores]

Toxicity in people isn’t considered a mental disorder. But there could be underlying mental problems that cause someone to act in toxic ways, including a personality disorder.

 

[Rubi]

---

Tanking not part of Conroy's plan amidst Flames' roster rebuild

On the verge of altering his roster by trading a few more core veterans, Craig Conroy isn't about to let the Flames tank.

www.sportsnet.ca

He has to say that though doesn't he? Has there ever been a team in the nhl that has flat out admitted to tanking in order to improve their draft prospects? And I don't mean someone in the know years later saying we did such and such so we hopefully could draft player x... I mean saying it, when its happening.
Do these teams go out and purposely lose games? No way. Nobody would ever ask players and coaches to do that. But... GMs do make trades that in the short term (a few years) degrade the roster thus making winning in the here and now much more difficult. And that in my opinion is a tank.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

This is insanely overrating Brzustewicz. You must have a very broad definition of graet to include him as a great prospect. He isn't a top 50 prospect in the league maybe not even top 100. How is that great?

For Vancuver i think most lists had him 4/5 for them, in Calgary he is behind Wolf, Coronato, Honzek and probably Morin. There would be others you could debate but I don't see how he is higher than 4th at best at a stretch.

He is a fine prospect, it was the type of prospect you expect to get back in a Lindholm deal but great? Come on

And if he is a 2nd pairing PP QB1 defenseman Vancouver isn't moving him and other teams are offering up 1st round picks for him.

Ok fair, I can agree that he isn’t in the tier of our recent mid-firsts and elite goalie prospect. But he’s right below them in the next tier and was ranked ahead of Morin and Pelletier in our Athletic prospect rankings. Based on that I would say his value is trending upwards around early 2nd/late 1st. I can settle on very good prospect with high upside after his amazing OHL year this year.

He’s a far higher upside prospect than Raty though, for example, who is putting up average numbers in his 2nd AHL season.
Which is why the Lindholm return was very strong if not ideal.

For context, imagine how upset we’d be if we shipped Morin with a 1st for a rental having a down year if we were in a playoff spot. I’d be pissed. I think we got more value from Vancouver than I would’ve given up if I were in Allvin’s shoes. So I’m quite pleased

 

[MM917]

I think it is a good deal for both teams.

Brzustewicz likely never would have played meaningful minutes for the Canucks so isn't a big loss and Lindholm is the exact kind of player they need and with Pettersson already there he can play the role he should.

 

[User1996]

Why does the Lindholm return depend on if Kuzmenko can be traded for a 1st? If he turns into a 30 goal scorer on the Flames, is that not better than a late 1st?

Anyways, he’s done exactly what we’ve been wanting for years - flip older players who don’t want to be here for picks, prospects, and players who could just use a change of scenery. I’d say I’m very happy with Craig so far.

 

[Lunatik]

Why does the Lindholm return depend on if Kuzmenko can be traded for a 1st? If he turns into a 30 goal scorer on the Flames, is that not better than a late 1st?

Anyways, he’s done exactly what we’ve been wanting for years - flip older players who don’t want to be here for picks, prospects, and players who could just use a change of scenery. I’d say I’m very happy with Craig so far.

You can't expect rational thought from certain posters. One in particular seems to have a ridiculous disdain for Kuzmenko and Sharangovich

 

[joescores]

Mangi can score! Unbelievable

 

[MM917]

Why does the Lindholm return depend on if Kuzmenko can be traded for a 1st? If he turns into a 30 goal scorer on the Flames, is that not better than a late 1st?

Anyways, he’s done exactly what we’ve been wanting for years - flip older players who don’t want to be here for picks, prospects, and players who could just use a change of scenery. I’d say I’m very happy with Craig so far.

LOL he isnt turning into a 30 goal scorer, certainly not on a team that wants to win anything. We saw what happened to him when the Canucks switched to a winning style ge was completely ineffective. You don’t win with players like him. With luck he can put up empty stats in a bad team but that has no value if you want to win.

 

[MM917]

You can't expect rational thought from certain posters. One in particular seems to have a ridiculous disdain for Kuzmenko and Sharangovich

Or one in particular has standards and realizes that you aren't having success with guys like Kukzmenko and Sharangovich in your top 6. There is a reason that once both of their teams started to have success neither guy was any use to those teams.

They were fine as warm bodies putting up empty points but when their teams needed to actually win neither guy had a role on winning teams.

 

[nuck]

He got standard market returns for players that had to leave anyway. Lindholm really should've been traded at the draft but Conroy wanted to try to re-sign him for some stupid reason. He hasn't done anything special or worth praise. A couple of flawed middle 6 wingers, picks and prospects with question marks are hardly a reason to celebrate anything.

But aren't you glad they didn't keep Lindholm for $8.5M x 8? Not a bad deal really, and it will look better when the Canucks get racked in the first round. The guy killed his value and they still got a return. Not a home run yet but definitely seems like a win.