IIHF World Rankings
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Laineux
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- Aug 1, 2011
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The IIHF ranking gives a fair estimate of countries depth. Sweden and Finland are # 1 and 2 because they have far more depth than Canada. That's why they dominate the WC's and Canada fails.
Canada is only best when it's played best-on-best, that shouldn't be all that determines how good a hockey country is.
Canada is only best when it's played best-on-best, that shouldn't be all that determines how good a hockey country is.
TonsofPuppies*
Registered User
It won't be long before the Euros are saying we should discard best-on-best results because Canada wins too many of these events.
Honestly, I'm waiting for the Scandinavian or Russian poster to say that the Olympics aren't a fair reflection of a nation's hockey strength and that we should put more focus on the Karjala Cup or the Euro Hockey Tour.
I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if Canada wins the next Olympics, the IIHF will reshuffle its weighting formula and give increased weight to the Euro Tour and less weight to the Olympics when determining the ranking of national sides. It's Bunny Ahearne all over again.
It's true, Juubito: you Finns have us beat when it comes to playing for third place against a dispirited opponent.
On that other thread about the ranking of one specific country there are points made about the quality and the depth of (individual) talent being an important factor towards ranking the countries.
As robwangjing in his excellent post above says, there are top talents missing for every one in the IIHF tournament and it even being more hurtful towards smaller hockey nations. Doesn't that actually make the tournament an excellent test for the depth of talent in nations?
I don't contend Canada is number one, I'm just hoping that Canada would have enough respect for other hockey nations to give some importance to a best-of-available tournament which for the nation of (allegedly) best talent and talent depth should be as easy a win as a best-of-best tournament. I don't think the ratio of Canadian players to others is much higher in the final stage of NHL playoffs than the same ratio during regular season which I think would somewhat void the claim that Canada suffers more than other nations about their top players being at the NHL playoffs during IIHF tournament and the tournament would therefore not be representative. (edit: though upon checking it up I see about 50% of the players in NHL are Canadian and that surely can affect, but I would expect a rosterful of good players be available at that point and I won't accept the "players that have just flunked in playoffs and won't get Stanley Cup are too disappointed to play" line)
I do see that Canadians perhaps don't give so much value for IIHF tournament as others do, but the others I believe are within their rights to expect the self-proclaimed best to show up and prove it in a tournament that is not played totally on their terms (best-on-best being the term in question here, the matter about rink size can of course be discussed about).
2002 and 2014 Olympic championship wins came on international ice. Hardly a case of playing on one's own terms (or native ice dimensions). Last time I checked, Canada has won more Olympic titles on international ice in the Open Era (NHL era) than Sweden and Finland (and Russia) combined. I guess every time Canada wins, it's only winning because everything's on its "terms".
jekoh
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I tried to explicitly state that by the word "term(s)" I meant mostly the "only the best-on-best tournaments count" view and contended the rationality of such view. I was also trying to leave room for legitimate concerns like ice-size which I, again explicity, mentioned as an example of possible bias going towards the Euros that could be ironed away from tournaments.
Did you even read my post? I didn't say Canada wins only when they're playing on their own terms!
So why was the 2004 World Cup not best-on-best and the 2005 World Championships were?
Both gave the opportunity for countries to send their best players with no scheduling conflicts.
NHL refs? They ref the IIHF sanctioned Olympics.
Home ice? Means squat historically in IIHF competition.
Travel? Didn't seem to bother the Finns and Czechs.
Last edited:
Rob
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Why are we arguing over the IIHF rankings? The only teams who should be concerned about the rankings are teams like Austria and Kazakhstan.
jekoh
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The World Cup is organized by the NHL and is therefore not a legit international competition.
Honestly the measuring contest going on in here is pretty comical 
I never knew so many Canadians would get so up in arms because the IIHF doesn't have them #1 because they've won 3 of the last 4 Olympics. We'll see how you guys do in 2018 when no one sends NHL Players. Then again those complaining and making conspiracy theories will probably be the first people who claim the Olympics don't matter anymore because it isn't best-on-best and that you are the "true" Olympic winners because of previous success.
I never knew so many Canadians would get so up in arms because the IIHF doesn't have them #1 because they've won 3 of the last 4 Olympics. We'll see how you guys do in 2018 when no one sends NHL Players. Then again those complaining and making conspiracy theories will probably be the first people who claim the Olympics don't matter anymore because it isn't best-on-best and that you are the "true" Olympic winners because of previous success.
jekoh
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Actually that is true, the olympic hockey games won't matter anymore once the best players are not participating.
Will it still be nice to win and add to your countries totals? Sure
Will it mean you're the top Hockey country? of course not, everyone knows that.
Will it still be nice to win and add to your countries totals? Sure
Will it mean you're the top Hockey country? of course not, everyone knows that.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
Honestly the measuring contest going on in here is pretty comical
Who is getting "up in arms"? Canadians aren't mad about winning 3 of the last 4 Olympics, lol. This is mostly another thread about how atrocious it is that the rest of the world disregards the IIHF ranking so much when discussing Finland, most specifically. Pointing out that there's a pretty clear #1 nation in hockey right now, and that the international ranking system doesn't even come close to representing that, is simply pointing out the obvious; not representative of going into hysterics.
jekoh
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Well, to be organized by the IIHF obviously. Legit international competitions ae organized by international governing bodies, not professional leagues.
Considering all the examples of scandals concerning events organized by say FIFA and those involving the olympics it is interesting to see some people think y events sanctioned under these type of umbrellas are the only ones that can be considered legitimate.
I don't see how games organized by certain professional leagues(at least in hockey) have shown themselves to be any more corrupt then the types some hail as the only fair or legitimate venues.
Very curious.
I don't see how games organized by certain professional leagues(at least in hockey) have shown themselves to be any more corrupt then the types some hail as the only fair or legitimate venues.
Very curious.
Anyone who knows anything about hockey history (even very recently) knows that the IIHF has less credibility than the NHL. I would encourage hockey fans to read Scott Young's 1976 book, "War on Ice," for an explanation of why Canadians are deeply suspicious of the IIHF and its machinations. It's a good thumbnail sketch, even though it leaves a few things out. the IIHF was founded as a European House League and its primary interest is the welfare of those nations. Not growing the game in Asia or elsewhere. Not nurturing the game in Canada or the United States. No, its primary focus is on looking after a few House League members. Everything else is ancillary. The fact the founding nation of the sport has only hosted one world championship event in the IIHF's 106-year history is mind-bending. I don't think you'd see such a thing in any other international sport. As expected, though, Euros love it and will defend it to their dying breath.
jekoh
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Well the Canada Cup organizers have certainly shown themselves to be corrupt, but that's besides the point. The IOC being corrupt does not make their tournament less legit. If it did, you guys wouldn't be gloating to no end about the recent Olympics.
Honestly the measuring contest going on in here is pretty comical
I don't think you know your hockey history. Canadians have very good reason for being suspicious towards the IIHF. The officiating is better today, and there is less overt bias, but there many explicit examples of outright prejudice and these extend over many decades. Canadians have every reason to believe that the IIHF looks after some nations more so than others. It wants Canadian dollars, hence the frequent hosting of the world juniors in Canada, but it looks to stick it to Canada at every opportunity.
I had to chuckle at your last sentence, too. I never knew that winning a best-on-best event wasn't as good a barometer of a nation's strength as winning the U18s or an Olympic event with amateur players. No event that isn't best on best is going to have the cachet of a best-on-best international tournament. That shouldn't be too hard a concept to grasp. That's why hockey people, even Americans, get excited over the Olympics. I seem to recall the Czechs revelling in their 1998 win in Nagano and rubbing it in the faces of North American (re: Canadian) hockey people. It mattered to them then and it matters to hockey people now. Canada will enjoy its "previous success" in Sochi and get ready to win again in 2018 (which will probably depend, in part, on NHL participation - which, in turn, will depend on whether or not the US owners think their national team is good enough to take a legitimate run at winning gold).
jekoh
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The IIHF gave Asia an entry to the World Championships for several years starting 1998 even though the Asian teams did not deserve it on the ice, yet they are blamed for not caring enough about that part of the world? Seriously?
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