IIHF Eligibility Rules Need to Change

[Rabid Ranger]

You can be a national of one country that played a lot in a different country. It is a mistake to conflate the two. The whole “developed by X” is kinda silly. You’d basically be disqualifying a lot of second division national teams whose players are no doubt of the nationality but have to love over when they are young (David Reinbacher with Austria for example) in order to seriously pursue hockey. Those are different than passport shoppers.

Like Macklin Celebrini?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Like Macklin Celebrini?

Yeah the U.S./Canada border is pretty fluid. Same with many EU nations.

 

[Albatros]

You can be a national of one country that played a lot in a different country. It is a mistake to conflate the two. The whole “developed by X” is kinda silly. You’d basically be disqualifying a lot of second division national teams whose players are no doubt of the nationality but have to love over when they are young (David Reinbacher with Austria for example) in order to seriously pursue hockey. Those are different than passport shoppers.

Reinbacher's Austrian and Swiss junior teams have a joint team nowadays by the way, so they do not have to move formally over the border.

Rheintal Future

rheintalfuture.com

 

[mjlee]

William Nylander was ruled eligible to play for Sweden by the IIHF despite not fulfilling the requirements. So there are exceptions decided on a case by case basis by IIHF.

OK to play for Sweden

web.archive.org

 

[_vivelequebec_]

However, Czechs and Slovaks do get hit by elibibility and it hurts them a bit. Eg. Lukas Fischer, Musil brothers, Hejduk twins, Ludvig and Arber.

Knies and Labanc for Slovakia...

 

[Czechboy]

William Nylander was ruled eligible to play for Sweden by the IIHF despite not fulfilling the requirements. So there are exceptions decided on a case by case basis by IIHF.

OK to play for Sweden

web.archive.org

It's a bit different.. definitely glad they made the exception as it sounds like he had 2 years but not 730 days. That would've been silly.

So compare this to Radek Bonk.

Bonk and Nylander play in the NHL
They have kids born in Canada/US

Nylander has no problem sending his kid to the Swedish League as it's a great developmental league and he's retired and back in Sweden (this is an assumption, don't know the guy)
Bonk would have to be a fool to send his kid to the Extraliga to play there during that dark period.

And, maybe I'm yelling at clouds, and the bigger issue is the Czech league sucking and the NHL Dads not wanting their kids there because CHL and USHL are better paths. I do see both sides to this argument but from a Czech perspective it stings.

Willing to bet Bonk and Nylander are both bilingual and have been back to their Dad's countries for long stints. And feel free to replace 'Bonk' with Fischer (NT GM for the Czechs), 'hejduk' or 'pivonka'.

 

[Czechboy]

With respect, I think we have a fundamental disagreement here. You refer to players like Musil, Xhekaj, Hejduks, etc. as "our guys". If these players were not at all developed in Czechia, they aren't "your guys". Their parents may have been, but these players are not.

A national team, in my opinion, should be reflective of the state of hockey in that nation. Not the state of hockey in the nations which their parents immigrated to. That opens up problems where we end up with a dozen+ national teams that are made up of Canadians/Americans/Swedes/Swiss. National teams that don't happen to have large emigrant communities suffer. Sorry Australia, you don't get to be competitive in Division IIA anymore; Serbia and Croatia have loaded their rosters with North American professionals and are going to beat you by double digits. Too bad.

Canada "loses" players with famous fathers to the US all the time. Some people complain about it. I never will - if those players are not raised/trained in the Canadian hockey system, they shouldn't be playing for Canada.

Maybe I'm just more of a hardliner on this than most.

I don't disagree with your points.

And you're right with guys like Hull and I think Bourque's son is USA now too? Imagine if a Gretzky, Crosby or Lemieux child suited up for the US???? Hull did it cause he was pissed and Canada didn't want him.

And in this situation, all Dad (Wayne, Mario or Sid) would have to do is send his kid to the CHL instead of USHL to get them to play for Canada?

Eg. Gretzky has a boy in LA who is very good at hockey. Plays and gets trained in California. When he's 15 and draft buzz is building. The next Gretzky is coming. His kid is dual citizen. He just has to send him to the CHL for ages 16 and 17 and he can play for Canada. That wouldn't necessarily hurt his kids dvelopment or draft ranking. Sending him to the Extraliga sure would.

I guess that's my bitching point here.

However, I can see holes in my argument. Not saying I'm 100% right.

 

[Czechboy]

Knies and Labanc for Slovakia...

What's their story?

 

[TomB]

I don't disagree with your points.

And you're right with guys like Hull and I think Bourque's son is USA now too? Imagine if a Gretzky, Crosby or Lemieux child suited up for the US???? Hull did it cause he was pissed and Canada didn't want him.

And in this situation, all Dad (Wayne, Mario or Sid) would have to do is send his kid to the CHL instead of USHL to get them to play for Canada?

Eg. Gretzky has a boy in LA who is very good at hockey. Plays and gets trained in California. When he's 15 and draft buzz is building. The next Gretzky is coming. His kid is dual citizen. He just has to send him to the CHL for ages 16 and 17 and he can play for Canada. That wouldn't necessarily hurt his kids dvelopment or draft ranking. Sending him to the Extraliga sure would.

I guess that's my bitching point here.

However, I can see holes in my argument. Not saying I'm 100% right.

This hypothetical Gretzky Jr., in my opinion, should play for the US. My position is that the rules do need to change; they're not hardline enough for me. My thinking is that the required playing time in a country should be much greater than 2 years.

I'm aware that there may be problems with this too. What if a player doesn't have (for example) 5 consecutive years in any one nation? Should this player be barred from playing for anyone? And I'm not sure what my answer to that question is, honestly. I just know that I'm not a big fan of mercenaries playing for the country of their parents or grandparents. Sure, there may be some cases where the player in question has a legitimate connection to the hockey culture/system of a country for which they are not eligible (although I'm not entirely sure how that might happen). But there are far more cases of guys playing for Italy that never stepped foot in the country until they were ~25 years old.

I don't think there's any way you can open the door to players that might have been partially raised in their parents' nation (let's say, for example, Bonk Jr.) and yet still close the door to North Americans that simply possess a second passport that they never considered using before becoming professional hockey players. I guess you could try a cumulative residency rule, but you'd have to have parents that thought enough to keep records in advance of a player reaching a high level - as this residency would need to be provable. It's an interesting thing to think about.

 

[archangel2]

IIHF eligibility rules should be more like football.

Too often they don't make logical sense. Players shouldn't be ineligible for their country of allegiance because of where in the world they were born. This hurts the Euro countries a lot more than USA and Canada.

Why is it so hard to make the rules that you are eligible for your country of birth, country of your mother, country of your father, and any country you've lived in for at least 5 years? Can't change eligibility once you play at an IIHF tournament. Simple.

Not sure what you are on about

What's their story?

then you have Kazakhstan at the World Championships with 4 or 5 USA born players. Nigel Dawes and Brandon Bochensk were two guys that stood out

 

[Czechboy]

Not sure what you are on about


then you have Kazakhstan at the World Championships with 4 or 5 USA born players. Nigel Dawes and Brandon Bochensk were two guys that stood out

I think it comes down to I see a big difference between Nigel Dawes playing for Kazakhstan and Radek Bonks son playing for the Czech Republic.

If there was a spectrum then that would be the 2 extremes to my eye. It's not black and white.

If you can find me a photo of Nigel Dawes mom or dad in Kazakhstan or speaking kazakhistanny before he was born then I will admit I'm wrong.

Because I can I can find you pictures of Fischer and bonk in the Czech Republic before Oliver and Lukas were even a thought.lol.

But I do see the point about who developed them. Ftr. Petr Kordas son plays for the US and I don't like that either.lol

 

[Voight]

I don't disagree with your points.

And you're right with guys like Hull and I think Bourque's son is USA now too? Imagine if a Gretzky, Crosby or Lemieux child suited up for the US???? Hull did it cause he was pissed and Canada didn't want him.

And in this situation, all Dad (Wayne, Mario or Sid) would have to do is send his kid to the CHL instead of USHL to get them to play for Canada?

Eg. Gretzky has a boy in LA who is very good at hockey. Plays and gets trained in California. When he's 15 and draft buzz is building. The next Gretzky is coming. His kid is dual citizen. He just has to send him to the CHL for ages 16 and 17 and he can play for Canada. That wouldn't necessarily hurt his kids dvelopment or draft ranking. Sending him to the Extraliga sure would.

I guess that's my bitching point here.

However, I can see holes in my argument. Not saying I'm 100% right.

Is that really surprising? His son was born in and grew up in the US. Ray Bourque has lived there since he was 18.

RE the other three, would probably only sting if the kids were top players. Tho seeing "Gretzky" on a. team USA jersey would sting either way, even if the kid spent the majority of his life in America.

 

[Czechboy]

s that really surprising?

I'm starting to feel like I'm pissing in the wind on this one.

I'm going to take the loss!

 

[PanniniClaus]

No perfect setup but If you are the son of Radek Bonk, Hejduk, Nik Antropov ... name that player... You should be able to suit up for the homeland.

 

[Albatros]

No perfect setup but If you are the son of Radek Bonk, Hejduk, Nik Antropov ... name that player... You should be able to suit up for the homeland.

It does not appear that any of them wanted to though. In the case of Antropov it was his only shot at national team hockey and still no.

 

[kudla]

What's their story?

Slovak parents, but I think they never played in Slovakia

 

[WarriorofTime]

William Nylander was ruled eligible to play for Sweden by the IIHF despite not fulfilling the requirements. So there are exceptions decided on a case by case basis by IIHF.

OK to play for Sweden

web.archive.org

It's nonsense that Jake Walman was blocked in 2016. The ruling made no sense, he participated in two season, why would a season not being complete have any barring as to whether he participated in it?

The IIHF is more strict than FIFA, FIBA, WBSC.. probably everyone else. It's bizarre.

 

[jj cale]

Must........................stay...............................quiet.

 

[JackSlater]

It's nonsense that Jake Walman was blocked in 2016. The ruling made no sense, he participated in two season, why would a season not being complete have any barring as to whether he participated in it?

The IIHF is more strict than FIFA, FIBA, WBSC.. probably everyone else. It's bizarre.

Wrong, Walman didn't meet the criteria... hence why he was denied. Just like Scott didn't a few years later. It's pretty obvious why the rule says two seasons and 16 months, which is to prevent this exact situation. USA is good enough to not bother with going after players like Walman with barely any ties to the country.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Wrong, Walman didn't meet the criteria... hence why he was denied. Just like Scott didn't a few years later. It's pretty obvious why the rule says two seasons and 16 months, which is to prevent this exact situation. USA is good enough to not bother with going after players like Walman with barely any ties to the country.

Read the language. Participate in two seasons. IIHF doesn’t know how to read their own rules. Nonsense decision. By now, he has lived in the U.S. for a decade and at the time fulfilled the residency requirement, which was ALWAYS the core intent of the rule (which is already more strict than every other sporting federation). Walman participated in the 2014-15 season and then participated in the 2015-16 season the second his team's season began. Any other reading is nonsensical, but when you answer to nobody you can make all sorts of nonsense up in rulings.

 

[Albatros]

The 2016 WJC took place beginning in December 2015 and Walman had started his US career in October 2014. That meant he had only 14 months of hockey in the United States behind him.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The 2016 WJC took place beginning in December 2015 and Walman had started his US career in October 2014. That meant he had only 14 months of hockey in the United States behind him.

The rule is residency plus seasons participated.

 

[Albatros]

No less than 480 days in the two-year case.

 

[Hinterland]

You can be a national of one country that played a lot in a different country. It is a mistake to conflate the two. The whole “developed by X” is kinda silly. You’d basically be disqualifying a lot of second division national teams whose players are no doubt of the nationality but have to love over when they are young (David Reinbacher with Austria for example) in order to seriously pursue hockey. Those are different than passport shoppers.

Exactly. Reinbacher never had the intention to play for any country other than Austria but he probably wouldn't be where he is now if he didn't start playing hockey elsewhere as a little boy already. It's tough to become an NHL player playing most of your junior hockey outside of Canada, the US, Sweden or Finland. Even Switzerland's junior leagues aren't exactly ideal. Playing juniors in a 2nd division country you likely never make it to the NHL.

 

[Czechboy]

Noticed Manon rheaunes boy is playing for USA