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If You were the Gm Crosby Ovechkin or Mcdavid

Midnight Judges said:
Sidney Crosby is generationally bad at defense. In fact Sidney Crosby leads all forwards in 5v5 on-ice goals AGAINST over the past 3 seasons:


I realize this is jarring to anyone who lives in a country where they are constantly told Crosby prevents lots of goals against. Obviously sheer repetition of lies works as a political tactic.
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Imagine that not playing sheltered MPG and playing for a really bad team defensively with the all time generational players mentioned above.

Maybe Crosby should head to the bench after most turnovers in play like Ovi does eh?

BTW Crosby is also 7th in GF and Ovechkin is a solid 96th 5 on 5 right?

Like I said people watch all of these guys play so cherry pick stats in isolation,

But then again you fail to mention Ovechkin's ultimate record that will probably never be broken.


4 straight years with 80+ offensive zone starts eh?
 
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Midnight Judges said:
It's not player specific.

Goals are - on average - worth more than secondary assists, or even assists in general (there are approximately 1.72 assists for every goal).



Neither Crosby or Lemieux were "complete players." Both are generationally bad at defense and Lemieux played a little over a half a career.
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Every point represents a goal. Crosby's teams score more when he's on the ice vs. Ovechkin.
 
bambamcam4ever said:
And Crosby has had significantly worse on-ice teammates over his career than OV as well
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No. He hasn't. In fact Crosby's team - without Crosby - has a far higher winning percentage than Ovechkin's team without Ovechkin.

This idea that Crosby - who plays with the clear cut 3rd best player of the generation - is somehow at a disadvantage is absurd.
 
paracord said:
Every point represents a goal. Crosby's teams score more when he's on the ice vs. Ovechkin.
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I agree - your metric (on-ice goals for) is indicative of their relative values.

However, you are mistaken: Over the course of their careers Ovechkin has been on the ice for significantly more goals for than Crosby.

2,322 for Ovechkin vs 2,189 for Crosby.
 
Midnight Judges said:
I agree - your metric (on-ice goals for) is indicative of their relative values.

However, you are mistaken: Over the course of their careers Ovechkin has been on the ice for significantly more goals for than Crosby.

2,322 for Ovechkin vs 2,189 for Crosby.
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Careful. You're opening up the counter argument that not having played games makes you better than someone who did play the games...
 
norrisnick said:
Careful. You're opening up the counter argument that not having played games makes you better than someone who did play the games...
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Yes, that’s why you would take the player who plays a more demanding position and has more points than his counterpart. All in about 150 less games.

Doesn’t take a brainiac to who the better player is in that scenario.
 
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Midnight Judges said:
No. He hasn't. In fact Crosby's team - without Crosby - has a far higher winning percentage than Ovechkin's team without Ovechkin.

This idea that Crosby - who plays with the clear cut 3rd best player of the generation - is somehow at a disadvantage is absurd.
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This is a non-sequitur. This was about their linemates.

You statement is also intentionally misleading and you know it as you've been corrected on it many times before
 
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Crosby then McDavid the Ovechkin.

Though you have to wonder how Ovechkin and McDavid would have fared career wise if they had an MAF right away in their career. Not to mention I’d take Letang over guys like Nurse and Green as top minute Dmen early in my pick’s career.
 
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JoeSakic13 said:
Crosby then McDavid the Ovechkin.

Though you have to wonder how Ovechkin and McDavid would have fared career wise if they had an MAF right away in their career. Not to mention I’d take Letang over guys like Nurse and Green as top minute Dmen early in my pick’s career.
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Ovechkin has had better goaltending in his career than Crosby has had, especially in the playoffs
 
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bambamcam4ever said:
Ovechkin has had better goaltending in his career than Crosby has had, especially in the playoffs
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Hmmm yes he’s had goalies who’ve had better years than MAF, but their shelf life was not nearly as long as MAF. I guess I should have spoken to the longevity as that is key.

I’d much rather have the goaltending position firmed up than have a revolving door when I’m trying to build a squad around a generational talent. Allows you to focus on other team deficiencies.

Ovechkin had a starting goalie of Kolzig then Theodore then Neuvirth then Vokoun all before Holtby broke out. MAF was already the starter when Crosby entered his rookie year.
 
JoeSakic13 said:
Hmmm yes he’s had goalies who’ve had better years than MAF, but their shelf life was not nearly as long as MAF. I guess I should have spoken to the longevity as that is key.

I’d much rather have the goaltending position firmed up than have a revolving door when I’m trying to build a squad around a generational talent. Allows you to focus on other team deficiencies.

Ovechkin had a starting goalie of Kolzig then Theodore then Neuvirth then Vokoun all before Holtby broke out. MAF was already the starter when Crosby entered his rookie year.
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You missed Varlamov. Between him and Vokoun and Holtby that's pretty good. And what matters is their actual performance. OV's goalies have had like a .922 in the playoffs.

And speaking of other deficiencies, the Capitals always had a stronger roster because they drafted much better than the Penguins.
 
bambamcam4ever said:
You missed Varlamov. Between him and Holtby that's pretty good. And what matters is their actual performance. OV's goalies have had like a .922 in the playoffs.
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Sorry yes I missed Varly, but you missed my point. 5 goalies on 1-2 year cycles before having a defacto starter. I’d rather have the position firmed up and focus on everything else. Even with those great stats they didn’t get him to a deep playoff run until years later.
 
JoeSakic13 said:
Crosby then McDavid the Ovechkin.

Though you have to wonder how Ovechkin and McDavid would have fared career wise if they had an MAF right away in their career. Not to mention I’d take Letang over guys like Nurse and Green as top minute Dmen early in my pick’s career.
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Crosby won a Cup with a rookie goalie in 2016 and with two goalies in 2017.

Letang was getting 3rd pairing ES minutes in 08 and 09. He had 2 points in '08. He missed the 2017 playoffs completely.

I guess you don't have to wonder anymore.
 
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JoeSakic13 said:
Crosby then McDavid the Ovechkin.

Though you have to wonder how Ovechkin and McDavid would have fared career wise if they had an MAF right away in their career. Not to mention I’d take Letang over guys like Nurse and Green as top minute Dmen early in my pick’s career.
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Are you just name dropping MAF and Letang here or what?

MAF wasn't all that great and his recent fortunes with Vegas doesn't change his time in Pittsburg.

Letang was great but he has missed large stretches and Crosby was elite well before Letang came along.

Both Green and Bouchard offensively were every bit as good as Letang if not better at their peaks.
 
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JoeSakic13 said:
Crosby then McDavid the Ovechkin.

Though you have to wonder how Ovechkin and McDavid would have fared career wise if they had an MAF right away in their career. Not to mention I’d take Letang over guys like Nurse and Green as top minute Dmen early in my pick’s career.
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Neither player had any real playoff success early in their respective careers and MAF would have cemented that.

MAF is probably the single biggest reason the Penguins took until 2016 to win another Cup. There were times when his playoff goaltending would make Stuart Skinner look like Patrick Roy (e.g. 2011-12)
 
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nowhereman said:
Neither player had any real playoff success early in their respective careers and MAF would have cemented that.

MAF is probably the single biggest reason the Penguins took until 2016 to win another Cup. There were times when his playoff goaltending would make Stuart Skinner look like Patrick Roy (e.g. 2011-12)
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From 2010 to 2013 MAF had possibly the worst 4 year postseason stretch in NHL history. It's incredible when people argue a decade later how he was supposedly helping Cros by.
 
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daver said:
Crosby won a Cup with a rookie goalie in 2016 and with two goalies in 2017.

Letang was getting 3rd pairing ES minutes in 08 and 09. He had 2 points in '08. He missed the 2017 playoffs completely.

I guess you don't have to wonder anymore.
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Crosby got carried by Malkin and Kessel in 16 and 17
 
Ovechkin > McDavid> Crosby

I'd take the guys who generate excitement by breaking records over the guy who just happened to win 3 cups by being surrounded by great teammates. (I know Crosby contributed a lot but without Malkin and later Kessel he isn't winning shit) And goals are more exciting than points so I'd take Ovechkin over McDavid.
 
McDavid is probably the best player of the three, has stayed in pretty good health, and is one of the best playff performers of all-time.

I think there's some recency bias here because McDavid is having a down year on his way to 115 points.
 
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