If the Rangers miss the playoff should Quinn be back?
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SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
I don't want to get an infraction.I think autocorrect hanged what you really meant to call me.
Fine. That has very little to do with Quinn's coaching. Especially when it is time for goalies to stop pucks or how do direct who contracts Covid.
In my experience, only the Sith deal in absolutes. Always moving the future is.
haveandare
Registered User
Yup this site crashes constantly.
You build around the young group. No question imo and management has been acting in accordance with that very clearly.
This is painfully true and not nearly enough people recognize themselves doing this. You (a general you) might watch other games but if it’s not your team, odds are you aren’t noticing these things that you’d freak about when your team and your coach does it.
Silly capitals or not, they are the youngest team and the idea they would win those games with another coach isn’t based on much
It's true that Trotz would have handled young guys differently than Quinn. They would have sat more, got less ice time, and played on the 4th line.
smoneil
Registered User
I think this is true for some folks. There's no such thing as a perfect coach. Each one has things that they do well and things they do poorly. It's a matter of finding the one whose strengths overlap with your team's biggest needs.
Quinn is a tough one. There are things he does very well (working with young defense). Some of the things he hasn't done well, he's clearly improved upon, so he is learning. That said, he has not been successful developing young forwards or, frankly, getting the team to play the way he wants them to (that last part by his and the players' own admission), and those issues have been consistently present for two years running. I think he has the potential to be an excellent coach in this league, but he isn't there yet. In a way, he kind of reminds me of a hockey equivalent of Bill Belichek--he got a HC gig with the Browns, struggled with it, became an assistant for a few years, and then started fresh with NE. We're Quinn's Browns.
A small part of me wants to keep Quinn around because we have Lundkvist, Jones, Schneider, etc etc coming in the next couple of years on the blueline, and I think he'd be great for them. The more logical part of me, however, sees that we can't afford one more season of a coach who has no idea how to work with young forwards. We don't have enough forward prospects to screw any of them up, and we can't afford another year of <25 point production from top two draft picks. We can't afford another year of benching our only young top 6 center (in a breakout year) because Ryan Strome needs to be served minutes even when he isn't playing well. In a couple three years, after working as an assistant for a bit, I think Quinn will make an excellent NHL coach, but he isn't there right now, and we need someone with a proven track record for developing top forward talent.
* Just as a heads up to the Quinn fan club (the four or five posters who respond to every criticism of Quinn with non-stop personal attacks, sarcasm, straw man arguments, etc), I know you have your ready to roll excuse routine to defend Quinn at all costs. I don't care about how much "depth" the team has. I don't care about how you think the last couple of games (when Quinn FINALLY started playing the kids with veteran linemates) shows that he's secretly awesome at developing kid forwards. Anyone who isn't lying out their ass will admit that if you went back two years and someone told you that the Rangers would draft Kakko and Lafreniere, but that those two + Kravtsov would combine for just 60 points in 173 games over the next two years (a .35 ppg average, a number that is even inflated by recent production with proper deployment), with none of the three even breaking 25 points for the year, they would be upset by that production. Also, I've blocked half of the Quinn fan club for arguing in bad faith, so I won't see your straw man nonsense anyway.
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
Please show where the "fan club" has defended Quinn at all cost......* Just as a heads up to the Quinn fan club (the four or five posters who respond to every criticism of Quinn with non-stop personal attacks, sarcasm, straw man arguments, etc), I know you have your ready to roll excuse routine to defend Quinn at all costs. I don't care about how much "depth" the team has. I don't care about how you think the last couple of games (when Quinn FINALLY started playing the kids with veteran linemates) shows that he's secretly awesome at developing kid forwards. Anyone who isn't lying out their ass will admit that if you went back two years and someone told you that the Rangers would draft Kakko and Lafreniere, but that those two + Kravtsov would combine for just 60 points in 173 games over the next two years (a .35 ppg average, a number that is even inflated by recent production with proper deployment), with none of the three even breaking 25 points for the year, they would be upset by that production. Also, I've blocked half of the Quinn fan club for arguing in bad faith, so I won't see your straw man nonsense anyway.
One certainly hopes that I am one of the blocked. But on the whole bad faith thing, lumping in Kravstov to upgrade an already weak argument is pretty silly considering that he just made his NHL debut, what 10-12 games ago? That is simply pretending that player development is linear and homogenous for all.* Just as a heads up to the Quinn fan club (the four or five posters who respond to every criticism of Quinn with non-stop personal attacks, sarcasm, straw man arguments, etc), I know you have your ready to roll excuse routine to defend Quinn at all costs. I don't care about how much "depth" the team has. I don't care about how you think the last couple of games (when Quinn FINALLY started playing the kids with veteran linemates) shows that he's secretly awesome at developing kid forwards. Anyone who isn't lying out their ass will admit that if you went back two years and someone told you that the Rangers would draft Kakko and Lafreniere, but that those two + Kravtsov would combine for just 60 points in 173 games over the next two years (a .35 ppg average, a number that is even inflated by recent production with proper deployment), with none of the three even breaking 25 points for the year, they would be upset by that production. Also, I've blocked half of the Quinn fan club for arguing in bad faith, so I won't see your straw man nonsense anyway.
Lumping in Lafreniere completely ignores the fact that the kids did not play hockey for 10 months from the second his his last game in juniors ended. So I will have some of that Disingenuous. And make it a double.
As for Kakko, there were two schools. One claimed that he was completely ready for the NHL. And one said that maybe heaping such expectations on an 18 year old who has just moved to a different continent is a bit premature. Looks like the latter group was right.
So to summarize, claiming that Quinn is good at developing defensemen while poor at developing forward is just some more Grade A BS.
KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
they may be youngest based on avg age because they dumped Staal and Hank and have a lot of rookies, but they are not as "young" as a team like Ottawa or NJ or Buffalo who have youngsters filling out their top 6 and playing the important minutes. The Rangers have a veteran core the plays most of the game and gets all the high leverage minutes, the youngsters (at least at forward) are sheltered. When its a close game in the 3rd its Zib, Panarin, Kreider, Strome, etc out there pushing for the win. So either they're a bunch of losers who can't get it done, or its the coaching. Can't blame that on youth. Its not the kids making egregious mistakes losing us these tight games.
- Sep 17, 2007
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Buchnevich has developed very well under his watch. Mika has reached elite status. Strome has become nearly a PPG player. Obviously Quinn doesn't deserve all the credit for their upward trends, but he certainly deserves some of it.
Kakko isn't producing a lot offensively yet, but I don't think anyone can say that he hasn't progressed. He is a much better player this year than he was last. Laf is better now than he was at the beginning of the year. Chytil is having his best year. The kids are all progressing, maybe not as fast as we hoped, but what matters is the finished product.
This is true. They still play more east-west than north-south, and that has a tendency to bite us in the ass against teams with good structure. Given the players we have, that isn't likely to change much, though maybe they can learn to play a simpler game when it is called for. Very likely, some players will be moved out and others brought in to give us a better mix of north-south players.
Something you should understand is that the people who defend Quinn, like myself, do it only because of the constant stream of complaints about him in every thread. If the people complaining about Quinn could stop for 5 minutes, there would be no posts about Quinn at all.
Quinn isn't going anywhere, no matter how many posts people make.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
So I've somewhat avoided this thread, but I'll dive in.
I fully expect DQ to be back next season. So somewhat aside from the question, that's my expectation.
Should DQ be back next season?
My short answer is yes, but I wouldn't necessarily read that as an endorsement either.
I think DQ has more or less achieved what I think he can with this roster and the season has unfolded in a manner that is very close to my expectations.
I think there are coaches who would do things differently, probably get better results in some areas and worse results in other areas. But I think the outcome would more or less be what we're seeing.
I do not believe the kids are being ruined. Not by a longshot. In fact, I think they're being developed in a way that will benefit them long-term.
On the flip side, I want them being given more at this point and I dislike what I perceive to be "coaching crutches."
I think DQ makes things harder than they need to be, though ultimately he gets to the destination he should. I don't think he's a bad coach, but I don't see the characteristics of someone on the cusp of being a great coach either.
With that said, I don't think this team is at the point where some of the alternatives being named by posters are great choices either. Maybe down the line, but not at this stage.
Right now, when I look at this group I have a feeling that the coaching changes comes after next year. I don't know if a change has the positive impact on the younger talent that some people really want to believe.
I fully expect DQ to be back next season. So somewhat aside from the question, that's my expectation.
Should DQ be back next season?
My short answer is yes, but I wouldn't necessarily read that as an endorsement either.
I think DQ has more or less achieved what I think he can with this roster and the season has unfolded in a manner that is very close to my expectations.
I think there are coaches who would do things differently, probably get better results in some areas and worse results in other areas. But I think the outcome would more or less be what we're seeing.
I do not believe the kids are being ruined. Not by a longshot. In fact, I think they're being developed in a way that will benefit them long-term.
On the flip side, I want them being given more at this point and I dislike what I perceive to be "coaching crutches."
I think DQ makes things harder than they need to be, though ultimately he gets to the destination he should. I don't think he's a bad coach, but I don't see the characteristics of someone on the cusp of being a great coach either.
With that said, I don't think this team is at the point where some of the alternatives being named by posters are great choices either. Maybe down the line, but not at this stage.
Right now, when I look at this group I have a feeling that the coaching changes comes after next year. I don't know if a change has the positive impact on the younger talent that some people really want to believe.
pld459666
Registered User
Don't think its a fair question as the playoffs while a goal was never a certainty.
That said, where is this team if:
Mika doesn't play like ass for a month+
Chytil doesn't get hurt early after a great start
Panarin doesn't miss 2 weeks.
I'd venture a guess that we are not nearly in the position we are in now.
I honestly don't think its even a slight consideration by Gorton or Davidson.
Rangers would draft Kakko and Lafreniere, but that those two + Kravtsov would combine for just 60 points in 173 games over the next two years (a .35 ppg average, a number that is even inflated by recent production with proper deployment), with none of the three even breaking 25 points for the year, they would be upset by that production. Also, I've blocked half of the Quinn fan club for arguing in bad faith, so I won't see your straw man nonsense anyway.
I think what the Quinnbros (whatever that means) would tell you is, just giving a young player more ice time (that they don't deserve or didn't earn) doesn't mean that player is going to automatically score more points. Paint it however you want, Laff was not good, at all, to start the season. And that's ok. You're starting to see flashes of the player he can be. Truthfully, Quinn should have sat him for a few games earlier in the season, that's how bad he was. Kravtsov hasn't even played 15 NHL games yet, why are you sweating his production? He came here in the final month of the season where every game is huge and his done better than expected. We're talking about 18/19/20 year old kids playing in the best league in the world. On top of that, they're going against guys like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Marchant every other night. Let them find their footing.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with teaching/demanding they learn how to play a complete game. Throwing kids out there who is in over his head or when the situation is too big for him is how you ruin a prospect. I have zero concerns about Laff, Kakko, and to a lesser extent Kravtsov. They're going to be very good for this team.
Do despite actually being younger, they are not in fact younger? Does that hit the mark?
smoneil
Registered User
It's rampant in every thread even tangentially related to Quinn. Occasionally, the points are decent (several of you made a point a couple of weeks ago that those critical of Quinn were a bit myopic to the things he does well, and I've made an effort since then to acknowledge those positives when discussing my concerns with him). That open-mindedness never flows in the other direction, however. You and the other Quinn fans--other than saying something empty like "I don't even CARE if Quinn stays coach, but..." from time to time, will rail against any perceived criticism of Quinn. You will give him credit for things that defy logic (ie: Chytil's production this year. Yes, Chytil has been breaking out all year, but Quinn's response was to cut his play to career lows. That's not "Quinn developing Chytil"--it's Quinn being oblivious to the fact that Chytil needs a bigger role). Most recently, in the Quinn thread, one of the pro-Quinn crew turned a simple question/observation into a three page, insulting, argument by intentionally misrepresenting a point and then railing against an argument that nobody was making. Basically, any thread involving Quinn tends to end up with the four or five people in question drowning out actual discussion by posting non-stop sarcasm, straw men, and personal insults.
Off Sides
Registered User
- Sep 8, 2008
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I think coaching is slow to adjust, yet they do eventually adjust.
Once the youth shows they can play more, they should just play them more. And I don't think they were all that ready until about a month ago, yet it took until about two weeks before they mixed the lines. It's been past time for Kravtsov to move up.
Similar for in game choices. Chytil's line can go do positive stuff for the first period, yet in the 2nd period he still sees like 4 shifts. Even when the Strome line is not playing well.
Coaching putting Rooney's line out after that extended Fox shift last game was a function of them not reading that portion of the game well.
Yet I'd still keep the slow to adjust coaching, mostly because I have seen the never adjust coaching with their past two coaches.
Once the youth shows they can play more, they should just play them more. And I don't think they were all that ready until about a month ago, yet it took until about two weeks before they mixed the lines. It's been past time for Kravtsov to move up.
Similar for in game choices. Chytil's line can go do positive stuff for the first period, yet in the 2nd period he still sees like 4 shifts. Even when the Strome line is not playing well.
Coaching putting Rooney's line out after that extended Fox shift last game was a function of them not reading that portion of the game well.
Yet I'd still keep the slow to adjust coaching, mostly because I have seen the never adjust coaching with their past two coaches.
smoneil
Registered User
Buchnevich is 26 years old. Mika is 28 years old. Strome is 28 years old. These players were "developed" long before Quinn got here.
I never said that Kakko hasn't progressed defensively. But you don't get excited because your 2nd overall pick looks good defensively (particularly when the coach...won't even play him in roles requiring defensive ability like PK, or take advantage of his puck possession skills like in OT). I already addressed Chytil in another post--he's been breaking out all year, and Quinn's response was to slash his minutes to career lows. That isn't "Development"--it's obliviousness. And with Laf, he has been better. And his production has gone up. And it happens to have coincided with Quinn playing him more and with veteran players and with PP time--something we've been calling for since late February. To be fair, he was in a tough spot with Laf, as there was nothing more for him to learn in the Q, he couldn't be sent down to Hartford, and he did need some work at the beginning of the season. Moving him to a 3rd line role for a bit wasn't a bad idea to have him work on a few things. He still should have had PP2 time and that move should have been for a couple weeks, not a couple of months.
Again, Quinn has been responsible for developing 5 first-round forwards (Laf, Kakko, Chytil, Andersson, Kravtsov). Not one of them are anywhere close to where we would have expected them to be at this time, even by the most realistic/cautious estimates. He gets a pass on Andersson, but the other four, particularly those first two? Especially when he's giving those two the lowest usage for top picks in close to 30 years? Like I said, if red flags don't go up, then you just don't want to see what's right in front of you. I'm not calling these kids busts--the exact opposite, in fact. I think they would be much further along with a coach who was better with forwards. To be fair to Quinn, Miller and Fox and Lindgren might not be as far along under that hypothetical coach.
If he can't get his players to follow a simple style of hockey (not even a system, but a style), how does that speak highly of his skill as a coach? That's one of the reasons I was trying to figure out if he fell into that "popular but not particularly respected" category.
Regarding the latter--it's a discussion board. Nothing will happen to the team based on posts that any of us make. Regarding the former, the Pro-Quinn group (and I hadn't been grouping you with them, because you haven't been doing the same kind of defending), will take a post critical about Quinn and, because of their style of response, turn it into 5 pages of vitriol. That's why I blocked a couple of them. Some of them have zero interest whatsoever in discussing the issue in good faith. Do people complain about Quinn too much? Sure, I'm certain we do. I think it largely comes down to the convergence of a few different issues. The kids not developing (after FINALLY getting top picks), the team making the same kinds of mistakes, the deference to veterans by a supposedly developmental coach, and even just basic venting after a loss. I think it probably looks like half the board is railing on the coach because there are half a dozen different groups each bothered by a different thing that he does.
smoneil
Registered User
This is a good point as well, and you could add more to it re: the ADA distraction and the possible impact that had on Georgiev's play for a bit. Making or not making the playoffs was irrelevant to me for this season. I want to see the team competitive in every/most games they play. Knowing they have a chance to win every night creates a positive atmosphere for player development. In terms of getting the team through a multitude of distractions without bottoming out or giving up on the season, Quinn has been fine. My primary issue is and always has been the light usage of the young players.
Also, in the interests of full disclosure, I'm not sure who I would want as a replacement, either. None of the names brought up thus far have sounded great (due to previous red flags like Gallant or having an even worse rep for burying kids like Trotz. The most intriguing thus far has been Brind'Amour, if he becomes available).
haveandare
Registered User
I agree with you on Chytil but what is that role? Mika and even Strome are really going to the extent that cutting their time for him seems questionable, especially while the playoffs are still somewhat possible though a very long shot.
I think the hardest part of his job to navigate is the toi. The fact is, there are too many players who are either too good not to play top minutes now or too important to the future not to be given ample room to grow. Half the forwards have to be bottom 6 toi players but there are only 3 guys on the team that really are that.
Shesterkybomb
Registered User
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Buchnevich was 23 when Quinn got here. He wasn't the complete player he is today. Yes, Mika and Strome are both older, but both improved considerably while Quinn was coach. Does he get no credit for that?
Hes back 95 percent. Team has vastly improved and if u beat a team 4 in a row they r good..nj devils opponent. No reason not to bring him back.
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