If McDavid does not win a Cup, but ends up with better regular seasons, would you consider him better than Sid?

[Sergei Shirokov]

McDavid had more playoff points getting swept in the 3rd round than Sid ever has

 

[Iggys Dome]

idk but I do know that if he ever wins a cup, it’s not with Edmonton.

 

[Divine]

The thing with McDavid and the reason it's hard to argue he's one of the best ever is he rarely separates himself from his peers.

Aside from the 56 game season in a completely random divisional format with all Canadian teams, he's always within a dozen or less points more (or less) than Draisaitl. Draisaitl has even outscored him in points per game and won the Art Ross over him. So many of their points come together as a line or on the powerplay that it's a question of it is McDavid or is it the sum of two great players?

Even in his historic playoff last season, he had 1 more point than an injured Draisaitl.

Crosby had seasons where he led his team by 30+ points. Gretzky's led his team by 100+ points, most all-time great players have that separation from their own teammates.

That's not to say McDavid isn't great, but he has to be able to carry his team, including blowing past Draisaitl in a normal season once or twice to be in the conversation.

 

[Calderon]

One thing to consider, and what might be a bit startling, is that Crosby won his cups in a 30 team league. The competition for McDavid is just tougher.

 

[Spawn]

The thing with McDavid and the reason it's hard to argue he's one of the best ever is he rarely separates himself from his peers.

Aside from the 56 game season in a completely random divisional format with all Canadian teams, he's always within a dozen or less points more (or less) than Draisaitl. Draisaitl has even outscored him in points per game and won the Art Ross over him. So many of their points come together as a line or on the powerplay that it's a question of it is McDavid or is it the sum of two great players?

Even in his historic playoff last season, he had 1 more point than an injured Draisaitl.

Crosby had seasons where he led his team by 30+ points. Gretzky's led his team by 100+ points, most all-time great players have that separation from their own teammates.

That's not to say McDavid isn't great, but he has to be able to carry his team, including blowing past Draisaitl in a normal season once or twice to be in the conversation.

Like the season he finished 23 points ahead of Draisaitl? Or the one he finished 38 points ahead of him? Or the one he finished 21 ahead of him in only 56 games?

Beyond that, it’s not McDavids fault that Malkin has been an injury prone player throughout his career and it shouldn’t be held against him that Draisaitl is always healthy (knock on wood).

Crosby and Malkin have only had healthy seasons together 3 times in their careers where they both played 75+ games. Malkin led Crosby in scoring in two of those three years and the other one he was a rookie.

 

[Divine]

Like the season he finished 23 points ahead of Draisaitl? Or the one he finished 38 points ahead of him? Or the one he finished 21 ahead of him in only 56 games?

Beyond that, it’s not McDavids fault that Malkin has been an injury prone player throughout his career and it shouldn’t be held against him that Draisaitl is always healthy (knock on wood).

It's not a health thing.

You're comparing McDavid to Draisaitl before Draisaitl was able to hit 80 points. Since Draisaitl hit his prime, McDavid hasn't really separated himself from him. Even Taylor Hall finished 40 points ahead of his teammate in his Hart season, but I mean separation from Draisaitl from after Draisaitl became an elite player. However, to that point, it is pretty confusing how Draisaitl became significantly better from 2018-2019 and McDavid's numbers barely improved, yet they put up so many points together on the powerplay/even-strength.

The 56 game season doesn't really count for obvious reasons, they got to play weak teams 9/10 times and they only played 6 teams in a weak division, but if that season was 82 games versus the entire NHL, then yeah that would be an example of the kind of separation I'm talking about.

I also think Malkin is a better player than Draisaitl, but Crosby was able to separate himself from him at least a few seasons in his prime. Crosby's lead his team by almost 50 points in his rookie season alone.

In his second season, he outscored his second best teammate (Malkin) by 35 with 1 more game.

I don't mean solely separating himself from only Draisaitl though. I mean separating himself from his peers, the rest of the league. He's barely separated himself from his teammate. In P/60, I think McDavid was 8th in the league last season.

 

[Spawn]

It's not a health thing.

You're comparing McDavid to Draisaitl before Draisaitl was able to hit 80 points. Since Draisaitl hit his prime, McDavid hasn't really separated himself from him. Even Taylor Hall finished 40 points ahead of his teammate in his Hart season, but I mean separation from Draisaitl from after Draisaitl hit 80 points in a season.

The 56 game season doesn't really count for obvious reasons, they got to play weak teams 9/10 times and they only played 6 teams in a weak division, but if that season was 82 games versus the entire NHL, then yeah that would be an example of the kind of separation I'm talking about.

I also think Malkin is a better player than Draisaitl, but Crosby was able to separate himself from him at least a few seasons in his prime. Crosby's lead his team by almost 50 points in his rookie season alone.

In his season season, he outscored his second best teammate (Malkin) by 35 with 1 more game.

Ahhhhh so you’re moving the goalposts once you’ve proven wrong. Gotcha.

Here is another comparison to prove you wrong:

McDavid and Draisaitl have played together for 7 complete seasons (ignoring the first 10 games of this season)

In those 7 seasons McDavid is 1st in league points and has a 90 point cap over Draisaitl (3rd place)

In Crosby and Malkins first 7 complete seasons together, Crosby was 5th in league scoring and Malkin was 6th and they were separated by 3 points.

Now I imagine this is where you would now like to factor health in (before it was no bueno of course). So when factoring in health, the gap in ppg between McDavid and Draisaitl in those years was 0.26ppg and the gap between Crosby and Malkin in those years was 0.23ppg. Keep in mind that those years include McDavid’s rookie year but not Crosby’s.

The gap between Crosby and Malkin is no larger than the gap between McDavid and Draisaitl.

Your argument about Hall finishing 40 points ahead of his next closest teammates is just so blatantly stupid it’s not really worth responding too.

 

[Divine]

Ahhhhh so you’re moving the goalposts once you’ve proven wrong. Gotcha.

Here is another comparison to prove you wrong:

McDavid and Draisaitl have played together for 7 complete seasons (ignoring the first 10 games of this season)

In those 7 seasons McDavid is 1st in league points and has a 90 point cap over Draisaitl (3rd place)

In Crosby and Malkins first 7 complete seasons together, Crosby was 5th in league scoring and Malkin was 6th and they were separated by 3 points.

Now I imagine this is where you would now like to factor health in (before it was no bueno of course). So when factoring in health, the gap in ppg between McDavid and Draisaitl in those years was 0.26ppg and the gap between Crosby and Malkin in those years was 0.23ppg. Keep in mind that those years include McDavid’s rookie year but not Crosby’s.

The gap between Crosby and Malkin is no larger than the gap between McDavid and Draisaitl.

Your argument about Hall finishing 40 points ahead of his next closest teammates is just so blatantly stupid it’s not really worth responding too.

It's not moving the goalposts. I clearly pointed out the 56 season doesn't count for obvious reasons initially and you used it as your main example. They didn't even play the rest of the league.

Yeah, the difference is when Malkin entered the league he was over a PPG player. When Draisaitl entered the league he was a 50 point player. Draisaitl wasn't able to pass PPG until his 5th season in the league. So obviously when you compare their careers, McDavid would have separated more from Draisaitl than Crosby would from Malkin. Crosby also had injury issues, as did Malkin. Drai and McDavid were both fairly healthy.

McDavid hasn't really separated himself from the league yet. He hasn't had that season where he's far and away the best player. When he has great seasons, Draisaitl (and other players) are right there with him. McDavid needs a season where he's 5-10 points better than everyone and #1 in the league in points/60. The reason I bring up Driasaitl over the rest of the league is because he's really the only guy who plays as many minutes as McDavid (which is multiple games more than their peers).

 

[Spawn]

It's not moving the goalposts. I clearly pointed out the 56 season doesn't count for obvious reasons initially and you used it as your main example. They didn't even play the rest of the league.

Yeah, the difference is when Malkin entered the league he was over a PPG player. When Draisaitl entered the league he was a 50 point player. Draisaitl wasn't able to pass PPG until his 5th season in the league. So obviously when you compare their careers, McDavid would have separated more from Draisaitl than Crosby would from Malkin. Crosby also had injury issues, as did Malkin. Drai and McDavid were both fairly healthy.

McDavid hasn't really separated himself from the league yet. He hasn't had that season where he's far and away the best player. When he has great seasons, Draisaitl (and other players) are right there with him. McDavid needs a season where he's 5-10 points better than everyone and #1 in the league in points/60. The reason I bring up Driasaitl over the rest of the league is because he's really the only guy who plays as many minutes as McDavid (which is multiple games more than their peers).

My main example? It was one of three examples.

ahhh throwing in more caveats to move the goalposts further. And once I proved those ones dumb I’m sure you’d come up with some other crap, or just circle back to things you’d already been proven wrong on.

You’re obviously just baiting now. Have fun.

 

[surixon]

Thats hard to say as we have no idea how McDavid will do once he starts to slow down. Crosby has shown elite longevity to go with his playoffs? cups ans dominant prime.

McDavid's game is based more on his explosiveness then Crosby's is so I'm curious to see if he's able to reinvent himself like Crosby has when he inevitably losses a step.

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

Prime Crosby ain’t gettin dog walked by the goddamn jets.

So, no. Crosby’s better.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

Depends, if mcdavids teams get stronger and stronger, and the best year is last year, not necessarily play wise but how far he makes it, then it would be hard for me to say which is definitely better

The oilers have started to improve over the last 3 years consistently so if they continue that trend then I think it’s gonna be hard for him to not find success in the playoffs unless he or draisaitl produce very poorly

 

[norrisnick]

idk but I do know that if he ever wins a cup, it’s not with Edmonton.

Yzerman was in a dark place with the Wings in the 80s. They didn't win until his 14th season. It took a while to build up the team around him.

 

[canuckking1]

Crosby wasn't the leading scorer on any of the 3 cup runs. If Mcdavid has triple the amount of Art Ross Trophies and double the amount of Hart trophies, it'll be hard to argue that Crosby is better because of cups.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby wasn't the leading scorer on any of the 3 cup runs. If Mcdavid has triple the amount of Art Ross Trophies and double the amount of Hart trophies, it'll be hard to argue that Crosby is better because of cups.

But he was the mvp for 2 of them.....

 

[norrisnick]

But he was the mvp for 2 of them.....

Shouldn't have been.

Voters f***ed up in '16 and then had to double down in '17 to maintain the farce.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Conner is this generations Jumbo Joe

This is a bad take.

To answer this thread, if McDavid has more performances like he did last post season but his TEAM wasn’t good enough then it won’t matter.

If he has poor playoff performances that lead his team to being upset many times (like Thornton) then it’ll matter

 

[canuckking1]

But he was the mvp for 2 of them.....

I mean, his 2016 CS is one of the weakest in the Cap era. To put it lightly, an offence first C with 19 points and 6 goals in 24 games is a pedestrian performance.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

This is a bad take.

To answer this thread, if McDavid has more performances like he did last post season but his TEAM wasn’t good enough then it won’t matter.

If he has poor playoff performances that lead his team to being upset many times (like Thornton) then it’ll matter

If McDavid never wins a cup that's all that will ever be talked about. He will join the marcel dionne, Dan marinos of the world

 

[Wallet Inspector]

The surest sign that you're taking with a midwit is if they use team awards to argue X player>Y player.

 

[nbwingsfan]

If McDavid never wins a cup that's all that will ever be talked about. He will join the marcel dionne, Dan marinos of the world

By the age of 25, Connor McDavid has won twice as many scoring titles as Marcel Dionne has… no that’s not all he will be remembered for

Man Crosby fans really do come up with the most ridiculous takes to try so hard to bring McDavid down.

 

[norrisnick]

The surest sign that you're taking with a midwit is if they use team awards to argue X player>Y player.

Especially if they then completely disregard a guy with 10 of said team awards in player comparisons because their guy is suddenly on the wrong side of the equation.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

The surest sign that you're taking with a midwit is if they use team awards to argue X player>Y player.

Like it or hate it, championships will always have a huge role in a player's long term legacy.

 

[Voight]

Honestly yes. He has hit a level of consistency Sid has not. McDavid has been 1 or 2 in points every single season except his rookie year. In that span he has been AST 1 four times, AST 2 once. Never finished lower than 5th in Hart voting. The two Art Ross' he "lost" went to an all time historic performance and a team mate/linemate.

If he wins 0 cups but finishes with say 7 Art Ross', 4 Harts, 8 first AST's, 4 second AST's you're really going to argue Sid was better?

Any all time greats without a ring like Dionne were not in the same league as 97.

 

[Stealth JD]

He could be the better player and not have had the better career. At this point, he already is the better player.