If McDavid does not win a Cup, but ends up with better regular seasons, would you consider him better than Sid?

[bobbyking]

I bet my life he will win a cup

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Well it depends how many better regular seasons, how high he peaks, how many individual awards, does he excel or choke in the playoffs? And obviously if Crosby adds anything too. For example if they retire with their current resumes, Crosby has the better career. But if McDavid ends up with say 5-6 rosses+3-4 lindsays+3-4 harts+1-2 rockets+a few dominant playoff runs then he's definitely ahead.

At the end of the day I think McDavid will rank ahead of Crosby/OV, regardless of a cup. He's going to have too much individual hardware.

 

[AvroArrow]

So does playoff success matter or not ?

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

So does playoff success matter or not ?

For me, playoffs are where legends are made. I have a ton of hockey memories ingrained from a young age, and almost all of them are playoff moments. Joe passing it to Bourque, those Wings Cup teams, Doughty, etc.

Is the Cup the key? For me it's a huge part of a player's legacy.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I think you're misremembering things. McDavid wasn't lauded for his defensive play in the playoffs, he was lauded for the points he was putting up. His defensive play was still iffy. His GA/60 was 3.6 these past playoffs! His xGA/60 was 3.06. That's not good defensive performance.

No, Oiler fans definitely praised his defense. The better question is if that praise was justified. It wasn't

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

So does playoff success matter or not ?

While I get that "individual players can't win a Cup on their own", I also think HF has gone the complete opposite direction where players seem to get zero credit for their team's playoff success. I think there's a happy medium where you can't give a player all the credit when his team wins, but you also can't outright dismiss his part in helping the team win.

People talk about how Crosby didn't win those Cups on his own because of the "depth" on Pittsburgh. Sure, but ponder this: why were the Pens able to have Kessel on the third line? Because Crosby was able to play with a rookie Sheary (all 11 points in 41 games of him) and still make that a functional 1st line. That allowed Kessel to be used on the 3rd line so the Pens could trot out 3 dangerous lines.

Crosby playing with the likes of past-his-prime Guerin, Sheary, Hornqvist and Kunitz and still making that top line dangerous is often overlooked in these discussions. Maybe Edmonton has the same depth as those Pens teams if McDavid plays with Foegele and Yamamoto and they put Draisaitl and Kane on the 2nd and 3rd lines to give them depth instead of stacking the top line and then wondering why the 3rd and 4th lines bring almost zero production?

 

[authentic]

Honestly after what he did last year in the playoffs? Yes.

This isn't a case like Jagr where he doesn't bring his best when it matters most. Put him on those Pittsburgh teams instead of Crosby and there's no doubt in my mind that they win all the same.

I think people need to go back and take a look at Jagrs playoff stats, it’s not like McDavid has won a Cup either which Jagr did early in his career. Then he has tons more elite playoff runs on top of it.

 

[Voight]

Honestly after what he did last year in the playoffs? Yes.

This isn't a case like Jagr where he doesn't bring his best when it matters most. Put him on those Pittsburgh teams instead of Crosby and there's no doubt in my mind that they win all the same.

Jagr is nearly PPG for his playoff career. He was well over PPG in the playoffs in the late 90s when he was stuck playing with eager players. He literally carried the Pens to the playoffs between Lemieuxs retirement and comeback.

 

[blundluntman]

I think people need to go back and take a look at Jagrs playoff stats, it’s not like McDavid has won a Cup either which Jagr did early in his career. Then he has tons more elite playoff runs on top of it.

I don't think I'd classify his playoff runs as elite. Just pretty good at best. He was never able to translate his regular season dominance to the postseason

Jagr is nearly PPG for his playoff career. He was well over PPG in the playoffs in the late 90s when he was stuck playing with eager players. He literally carried the Pens to the playoffs between Lemieuxs retirement and comeback.

Nearly ppg compared to the seasons he put up in the 90s just simply isn't as good as he was capable of. Most great players have at least one great playoff run where they were able to translate their regular season play. I'm not saying Jagr sucked in the playoffs, it's just that he set a high standard that he didn't exactly meet.

 

[authentic]

I don't think I'd classify his playoff runs as elite. Just pretty good at best. He was never able to translate his regular season dominance to the postseason


Nearly ppg compared to the seasons he put up in the 90s just simply isn't as good as he was capable of. Most great players have at least one great playoff run where they were able to translate their regular season play. I'm not saying Jagr sucked in the playoffs, it's just that he set a high standard that he didn't exactly meet.

42 goals and 83 points in 61 games from 1994-1999. 24 points in 21 games as a 20 year old in the 1992 Cup win. 15 points in 10 games as a 36 year old. Best playoff points per game of the dead puck era.

 

[McVespa99]

So does playoff success matter or not ?

McDavid was over 2ppg last playoffs and went 3 rounds. That IS playoff success from a personal standpoint.

 

[McVespa99]

While I get that "individual players can't win a Cup on their own", I also think HF has gone the complete opposite direction where players seem to get zero credit for their team's playoff success. I think there's a happy medium where you can't give a player all the credit when his team wins, but you also can't outright dismiss his part in helping the team win.

People talk about how Crosby didn't win those Cups on his own because of the "depth" on Pittsburgh. Sure, but ponder this: why were the Pens able to have Kessel on the third line? Because Crosby was able to play with a rookie Sheary (all 11 points in 41 games of him) and still make that a functional 1st line. That allowed Kessel to be used on the 3rd line so the Pens could trot out 3 dangerous lines.

Crosby playing with the likes of past-his-prime Guerin, Sheary, Hornqvist and Kunitz and still making that top line dangerous is often overlooked in these discussions. Maybe Edmonton has the same depth as those Pens teams if McDavid plays with Foegele and Yamamoto and they put Draisaitl and Kane on the 2nd and 3rd lines to give them depth instead of stacking the top line and then wondering why the 3rd and 4th lines bring almost zero production?

I agree to some extent. But if the Oilers win the Cup and McDavid only has 11 points in the playoffs that is not success on an individual level. The opposite being McDavid scores 30 points in 15 playoff games and the team loses.
Maroon scored 27 goals on a line with McDavid.

 

[Stephen]

No, there can't be any gaps in the resume. That detail is going to be the battle ground till the end of time.

 

[La Bamba]

He's 25 so he has lots of time to win a Cup. Crosby by this time had 1 Cup

..if he doesn't win a cup, he's still better as an individual talent. I loved watching Crosby growing up but McD is the best player I've seen in my life

 

[lawrence]

I’ve also thought he will be better than Crosby. I think he is. McDavid is a goal scoring threat too. Crosby seems to be playmaker first.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Forget the Cup, Crosby will always have the Golden Goal over everybody

 

[jetsforever]

Define "better regular seasons", because scoring is up now and there are various parameters to consider

 

[authentic]

I’ve also thought he will be better than Crosby. I think he is. McDavid is a goal scoring threat too. Crosby seems to be playmaker first.

Crosby had 32 goals in 41 games and a 50 goal season, McDavid hasn’t done any of this yet.

 

[Empoleon8771]

McDavid will never be considered better than Crosby without a cup. Feel free to say it's unfair, but that's how his legacy will be viewed if he doesn't win one.

McDavid's regular season resume (4 Art Ross, 3 Pearson and 2 Hart trophies) right now is already right on par with Crosby's regular season resume (3 Pearson, 2 Art Ross, 2 Hart and 2 Richard trophies). However, the difference between 9 individual awards and say 14 individual awards (assuming McDavid wins 5 additional individual awards) is going to be mentioned a lot less than the difference between 3 cups and 0 cups.

 

[Voight]

I don't think I'd classify his playoff runs as elite. Just pretty good at best. He was never able to translate his regular season dominance to the postseason


Nearly ppg compared to the seasons he put up in the 90s just simply isn't as good as he was capable of. Most great players have at least one great playoff run where they were able to translate their regular season play. I'm not saying Jagr sucked in the playoffs, it's just that he set a high standard that he didn't exactly meet.

I'd argue he did the best he could given the circumstance. He didn't have a second star on the team like Crosby/Yzerman/Sakic/McDavid etc did (during the time he was in his prime) and while he didn't have a historic playoff run similar to some of his contemporaries his team was teetering on bankruptcy when he was at his best/peak performance. So he never had much of a chance or team capable of making a long playoff run.

Plenty of elite players didn't truly take off in the playoffs until there was another star player to help carry the load.

 

[BruinsFan37]

Without a cup, fair or not, McDavid is the current version of Marcel Dionne, with a touch of Pavel Bure thrown in.

 

[centipede2233]

Yes. A Stanley Cup is never won alone. It’s an entire team firing on all cylinders deep into May/June after having played a full 82 game season. Not an easy thing to do.

Every great player with the rare exception has found a way to win the cup, Crosby, ovie, Kane, Bergeron,Datsyuk, Malkin, Toews (prime), Forsberg, Sakic, Yzerman, Hull, Federov, Modand, jagr, Gretzky, messier, Lemieux, Selanne. There are Thornton, sedins, bure, Lindros, roenick, tkachuk that didn’t win. he really does need a cup win at the very least imho.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Cups matter, but the gap between the two in regular seasons is already big enough to justify McDavid is better

 

[hamzarocks]

I had a dream McDavid had a 8 pt game yesterday

McDavid and the Oilers weren't even playing but the fact that I think he can put 8 pts in a game and not instantly see how ridiculous that is just shows how insane be is

If both were in their primes at the same age they're very similar players with me giving the edge to 97 on offense

I don't see anyway 97 doesn't get at least 6-7 rosses. Just too dominant

Well it depends how many better regular seasons, how high he peaks, how many individual awards, does he excel or choke in the playoffs? And obviously if Crosby adds anything too. For example if they retire with their current resumes, Crosby has the better career. But if McDavid ends up with say 5-6 rosses+3-4 lindsays+3-4 harts+1-2 rockets+a few dominant playoff runs then he's definitely ahead.

At the end of the day I think McDavid will rank ahead of Crosby/OV, regardless of a cup. He's going to have too much individual hardware.

He was fortunate that he didn't have to match up against a healthy OV/SID level talent

If they all enter the NHL in 2015 I think the next 15 years they are splitting the major awards amongst each other

Though McDavid does seem to have the best point producing ability of the three. His vision and ability to set up others is insane. He's become an elite goal scorer as well now

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

This is another thread where many here defending McDavid have probably never played competitive sports.

Cups matter more then anything. Ask a player if the Stanley Cup doesn’t matter.

It’s like playing bot lobbies in call of duty compared to playing for 100k against the best in the world and coming out on top.

Sid has three Cups. Until McDavid touches that he’s always in Sids rear view.