If he played today, Gretzky would at least put up Marner numbers?

[VistamarCroissants]

Gretzky was a rare gem. A mega-talent.
Why would one compare Marner to him?

 

[Ralph Malfredsson]

Not saying Marner is better, just using him as a launching point to take a guess at what Gretzky would do in today’s game. They are similar stylewise on offense (tho not defense…Gretz wouldn’t be able to play that way as a center today on a contender one assumes, and Marner is a good defensive player at RW). They both had/have similar skating ability, maybe you could say similar hands if Gretz had new sticks and training coming up.

When Marner was 21, he put up 94 pts in 82 games, which is phenomenal. He’s 6’0”, 181.

Gretzky was 6’0”, 185. Maybe add 10 pounds for modern weight training, 190-195 today?

97 in 72 was Marner’s best and he has similar star power around him to spread out coverage. So if you took the defensive responsibilities away from Marner and moved him to center, safe to say that’s a 20-25 point boost? Then add 10 games played and maybe another 15 points to the 97/72 season and you get :

132 poins in 84 games?

So are we saying a bigger Gretzky today does better? Also, would Gretz be better suited to the wing today?

bro are you high?

 

[The Pale King]

Upbringing is important too, not just the genetic stuff OP alludes to. I won't claim to know much about Marner's father, but compare it to what we do know about Walter and it's not a fair comparison; having Walter Gretzky as your dad is going to help you in any era.

Gretz was humble (possibly to a fault) but he was fiercely competitive. I haven't seen that from Marner, to say the least. I say that as a guy who likes the Maple Leafs and wants them to do well.

Another anecdote that comes to mind is that 99 knew the stats of every single player in the league. Regardless of whether this is true or not, it makes me think he'd take full advantage of the modern scouting and film available to players nowadays.

Not to be rude but it seems like Marner would struggle to name ten teams on his no-trade list. Mitch brother you can't name Winnipeg three times, and you spelled it "Win-a-pig"?

 

[tabness]

Upbringing is important too, not just the genetic stuff OP alludes to.

yes in cases where it is super close like Gretzky vs Marner you have to bring up the vastly different backgrounds

very similar to Hall vs Seguin

Taylor Hall: typical hockey kid growing up upper middle class in the suburbs

Tyler Seguin: growing up in the hood

 

[mobilus]

There’s less violence and holding but also less time and space and the players are just as big but way better skaters. And the lower lines are good now too. All the teams play systems unlike in Gretzky’s day.

Gretzky tore up the Soviet National Team in the '87 Canada Cup. Their skating as a team was first rate, their 3rd and 4th lines were better skill wise than any team's bottom six today. Gretzky and Lemieux finished 1-2 in tournament scoring, Ray Bourque was 6th, the other top seven were all Soviets. Gretzky averaged 2 assists per game against the best national teams in the world. He's the definitive performer under pressure, which makes him the anti-Marner.

Even leaving Gretzky in his old skates, give him a modern stick and he wins the Art Ross comfortably today.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Likely he and McDavid would be pretty close to each other. Gretzky obviously dominated his era to a greater extent but the competition wasn't as deep.

 

[Crosby2010]

Likely he and McDavid would be pretty close to each other. Gretzky obviously dominated his era to a greater extent but the competition wasn't as deep.

Mario?

If we are to agree that Mario is definitely better at his best than McDavid than we can agree that Gretzky is still the best in the game today. Just look at the people Gretzky outscored. And look at the people who outscored McDavid in his career (albeit not a lot). Can we pretty much put Yzerman and MacKinnon on the same page and Kucherov and Stastny similar? If that is the case all you have to see is the results each player had against their peers.

Plus there is Bossy, Dionne, Trottier, Hawerchuk, etc. Are we to assume these guys are plugs in 2024? Gretzky obliterated them.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Mario?

If we are to agree that Mario is definitely better at his best than McDavid than we can agree that Gretzky is still the best in the game today. Just look at the people Gretzky outscored. And look at the people who outscored McDavid in his career (albeit not a lot). Can we pretty much put Yzerman and MacKinnon on the same page and Kucherov and Stastny similar? If that is the case all you have to see is the results each player had against their peers.

Plus there is Bossy, Dionne, Trottier, Hawerchuk, etc. Are we to assume these guys are plugs in 2024? Gretzky obliterated them.

The depth is definitely better now, mostly due to globalization. The Matthews, Kucherovs, and even statistically speaking some of the Swedish/Finnish guys (existed in NHL but not the same level as they are now) just don't exist in the Gretzky era so that will give Gretzky more of an edge in era-adjusting stuff.

Gretzky had a bit of a headstart on Lemieux and some of his best years were before Lemieux was even there.

Also that it's a more offensively minded era in general, with a clear edge in defense/goaltending across the board to right now, making it a bit tougher for offensive players to dominate to that same degree, so that gives Gretzky a big absolute edge.

I'd give Gretzky an edge on McDavid but I don't think he is "obliterating" him, and I think McDavid probably gets there at least a couple times if their career overlaps like how Lemieux beat out Gretzky a couple times before Gretzky got older.

 

[MadLuke]

And look at the people who outscored McDavid in his career

No one has Gretzky always on for so long a la Gretzky, but McDavid in a peak year vs Gretzky not in one would not necessarily be that far, Mack and Yzerman could be a good way to look at it.

In the last 4 years, McDavid outscored Mack by 14-15% in the regualar season (PPG wise) and 40% in the playoff.

From 88 to 91, pre Sutered but post peak Gretzky outscored Yzerman by 30% in the regular season (this part of his career is quite something, clearly out his prime, not an Oilers anymore, how close he is to flattly keep up with Mario and outscore a player like peak Yzerman by that much...).

By transition maybe prime but not peak Gretzky outscore McDavid by 13-14% and Connor in a peak year (2021-2023 type) would compete for the Ross in a close race, depend on how well their respective power play click that year, how many they get and what not.

 

[The Panther]

Like most of you, I still rank Mario ahead of McDavid -- but it's not by a huge amount.

If McDavid does nothing else of huge significance for the rest of his career (i.e., no more 1st place scoring finishes, no more Harts, no Cup), then Mario can rest comfortably in my personal ranking.

But I think if McDavid wins one more scoring title by an impressive degree, if he wins another Hart (esp. as he did in '21 or '23), or if he leads the Oilers to a Cup win with another superb playoff performance, then he may indeed bump Mario out. I don't say it's certain, and all this depends on context, blah, blah, blah, but it's certainly a very real possibility.

For me, McDavid in 2021 and in 2022-23 is at the level of Mario in 1987-88 or 1995-96 and is approaching Mario's 1988-89 / 1992-93 level.

 

[Overrated]

Like most of you, I still rank Mario ahead of McDavid -- but it's not by a huge amount.

If McDavid does nothing else of huge significance for the rest of his career (i.e., no more 1st place scoring finishes, no more Harts, no Cup), then Mario can rest comfortably in my personal ranking.

But I think if McDavid wins one more scoring title by an impressive degree, if he wins another Hart (esp. as he did in '21 or '23), or if he leads the Oilers to a Cup win with another superb playoff performance, then he may indeed bump Mario out. I don't say it's certain, and all this depends on context, blah, blah, blah, but it's certainly a very real possibility.

For me, McDavid in 2021 and in 2022-23 is at the level of Mario in 1987-88 or 1995-96 and is approaching Mario's 1988-89 / 1992-93 level.

Is he really though? Statistically it doesn't seem like it. Also looks like a significantly weaker competition to deal with. You might bring up ES, ok I will bring up GPG.

 

[VanIslander]

I agree wholeheartedly with the op. If Gretz put on his skates today he'd match Mitch.
Even though he's 63.

A riff on...

When the witty and long-retired Babe Pratt was asked back in the 1970s how many goals the great Cyclone Taylor would score if he played in today's NHL, he answered calmly, "Oh, about 20." The interviewer was dumbstruck and followed up, "But, Babe, Cyclone was the greatest player of his day! How can you say he'd score only 20 goals now?" Nonplussed, Pratt said, "Yes, but the man's 90 years old."

 

[BraveCanadian]

Is he really though? Statistically it doesn't seem like it. Also looks like a significantly weaker competition to deal with. You might bring up ES, ok I will bring up GPG.

View attachment 895415View attachment 895416

Why would you compare a season of Mario's where he was clearly past his prime and powerplay driven ?

 

[Overrated]

Why would you compare a season of Mario's where he was clearly past his prime and powerplay driven ?

I was responding to @The Panther who claimed those seasons were even.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I was responding to @The Panther who claimed those seasons were even.

Ah, I must have missed that but I still don't think it is a great comparison. 95-96 is an oddball year.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Gretzky with 4 on 4 and no redline would lead the league.

I feel like people couldn't see what Gretzky was doing with those 320x240 rez TV's.

Basically he looks the wrong way everywhere draw in 2 players, and saucer a pass to what looked like nowhere (often behind him) with pinpoint accuracy. In real life he looked like an alien playing constantly looking one way, skating another, and passing to another.

Sorta like this, but in hockey:


He revealed in his book that he was always the youngest skater on his teams growing up, so to dodge bigger stronger players he learned to play by watching everyone's reflection in the glass.

Till this day he was the only player who could effectively play behind the opposing goalies net. Constantly shifting side to side forcing the goalie to shift post to post. Moving their head left right left and daring a defending to abandon the front of the net so he would zip it to the open man for a shot at an out of position goalie looking the wrong way.

 

[The Panther]

Is he really though? Statistically it doesn't seem like it. Also looks like a significantly weaker competition to deal with.

For me, yes, it's very similar. Lots of statistics support that. (The 2021 season for McDavid is even slightly more dominant than 2023.)

Not sure why you think it's weaker competition. Draisaitl is one of the most productive wingers ever, and MacKinnon and Kucherov will likely go down as two of the greatest forwards of all time.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Also... does Marner have the kind of shot that could beat Hasek clean?

 

[VanIslander]

Also... does Marner have the kind of shot that could beat Hasek clean?

Mario only scored 3 times on 41 attempts!

None of his many failures more heralded than his: "Hasek robs him AGAIN!" highlight wt? save here:

 

[Overrated]

For me, yes, it's very similar. Lots of statistics support that. (The 2021 season for McDavid is even slightly more dominant than 2023.)

Not sure why you think it's weaker competition. Draisaitl is one of the most productive wingers ever, and MacKinnon and Kucherov will likely go down as two of the greatest forwards of all time.

Jagr, Selanne and Forsberg were all the best forwards ever from their respective countries who made the 95/96 top10. Well Pastrnak, Rantanen and Pettersson all made the top ten the other year in question. That is the drop off in quality that's the most evident.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Also... does Marner have the kind of shot that could beat Hasek clean?

Have to keep in mind that goalies back then were trash. No way you're scoring on a clapper from the top of the circle today.

/s

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Have to keep in mind that goalies back then were trash. No way you're scoring on a clapper from the top of the circle today.

/s

Correction. Clapper with a 2x4 piece of plywood.

With today's sticks he would zip it 100mph without flinching.

 

[Crosby2010]

The depth is definitely better now, mostly due to globalization. The Matthews, Kucherovs, and even statistically speaking some of the Swedish/Finnish guys (existed in NHL but not the same level as they are now) just don't exist in the Gretzky era so that will give Gretzky more of an edge in era-adjusting stuff.

Gretzky had a bit of a headstart on Lemieux and some of his best years were before Lemieux was even there.

Also that it's a more offensively minded era in general, with a clear edge in defense/goaltending across the board to right now, making it a bit tougher for offensive players to dominate to that same degree, so that gives Gretzky a big absolute edge.

I'd give Gretzky an edge on McDavid but I don't think he is "obliterating" him, and I think McDavid probably gets there at least a couple times if their career overlaps like how Lemieux beat out Gretzky a couple times before Gretzky got older.

Just rhyming off some names here: Bossy, Trottier, Dionne, Hawerchuk, Savard, Stastny, Yzerman, Messier, Kurri. We can agree that's some serious talent. Well, Gretzky would often have 70 points more than whoever was the next best out of these guys. The fact that one of them didn't come from Sweden but from Saskatchewan (Trottier) or Montreal (Bossy) is not relevant. Case in point a much older and battered Gretzky led the NHL in points by 10 in 1994. This was a league that had already had the European invasion and yet a Gretzky we all agree is in some cases a shadow of his former self still led the NHL in points and assists. Mario didn't change from 1989 to 1993 to 1996. Not much anyway. Yet he had 2.3 PPG in 1996 to the next best 1.8. These guys still dominated in some heavy, heavy seasons in NHL history. One thing stayed the same and that was it didn't matter who was playing in the NHL or where they came from, they still dominated. Gretzky took a step down because of age and the Suter injury, not because all of the sudden there were more Euros. Who was better than Gretzky in the 1993 playoffs? Who was better than Lemieux in 1993 overall? No one. And Auston Matthews is hardly a guy I would say poses any sort of threat to competing with Gretzky in today's game.

No one has Gretzky always on for so long a la Gretzky, but McDavid in a peak year vs Gretzky not in one would not necessarily be that far, Mack and Yzerman could be a good way to look at it.

In the last 4 years, McDavid outscored Mack by 14-15% in the regualar season (PPG wise) and 40% in the playoff.

From 88 to 91, pre Sutered but post peak Gretzky outscored Yzerman by 30% in the regular season (this part of his career is quite something, clearly out his prime, not an Oilers anymore, how close he is to flattly keep up with Mario and outscore a player like peak Yzerman by that much...).

By transition maybe prime but not peak Gretzky outscore McDavid by 13-14% and Connor in a peak year (2021-2023 type) would compete for the Ross in a close race, depend on how well their respective power play click that year, how many they get and what not.

I'm okay with that, in fact I see it much of the same way. A post-Oiler Gretzky is similar to McDavid today. Gretzky had his final season in 1991 where he lapped the field more or less. Mario was injured most of the year so factor that in, but Mario as always is the exception. There hasn't been another one like him since. The point is Gretzky almost had as many assists in 1991 as the next best player had points. Then Suter happened and things weren't quite the same for him. I think current McDavid is better than, say, a 1991-'94 Gretzky. It isn't by a country mile, but he's better. Likewise, I think Gretzky from 1988-'91 is better than McDavid. Again, not by a country mile and certainly there are similarities, but I take Gretzky slightly. That being said, it is almost unfair to compare anyone to Gretzky from his Oiler days.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Just rhyming off some names here: Bossy, Trottier, Dionne, Hawerchuk, Savard, Stastny, Yzerman, Messier, Kurri. We can agree that's some serious talent. Well, Gretzky would often have 70 points more than whoever was the next best out of these guys. The fact that one of them didn't come from Sweden but from Saskatchewan (Trottier) or Montreal (Bossy) is not relevant. Case in point a much older and battered Gretzky led the NHL in points by 10 in 1994. This was a league that had already had the European invasion and yet a Gretzky we all agree is in some cases a shadow of his former self still led the NHL in points and assists. Mario didn't change from 1989 to 1993 to 1996. Not much anyway. Yet he had 2.3 PPG in 1996 to the next best 1.8. These guys still dominated in some heavy, heavy seasons in NHL history. One thing stayed the same and that was it didn't matter who was playing in the NHL or where they came from, they still dominated. Gretzky took a step down because of age and the Suter injury, not because all of the sudden there were more Euros. Who was better than Gretzky in the 1993 playoffs? Who was better than Lemieux in 1993 overall? No one. And Auston Matthews is hardly a guy I would say poses any sort of threat to competing with Gretzky in today's game.

Sure, not saying Gretzky isn't awesome, or couldn't hang whatver. Those guys are great and all. So let's take '82, Gretzkty wins the Art Ross by 65 points over Mike Bossy. Lemieux's not in NHL yet, Yzerman not in NHL yet. Bossy, Statstny, Maruk, Trottier, Savard, Dionne, Smith, Ciccarelli, Taylor. That's your 2-9. It's not like these guys are as good as McDavid. As a collective, they probably weren't even as good the Soviets who weren't in the NHL at that time.

My point is more so that McDavid CAN hang, definitely. Like I'm not saying every guy from the early 80s is trash but Gretzky beating Dale Hawerchuk or whatever by 1,000 points doesn't mean he's doing the same with McDavid, who is the best offensive player since Lemieux and around that level while showing a lot better ability to play a full season than Mario ever could.

 

[gretzkyoilers]

Just rhyming off some names here: Bossy, Trottier, Dionne, Hawerchuk, Savard, Stastny, Yzerman, Messier, Kurri. We can agree that's some serious talent. Well, Gretzky would often have 70 points more than whoever was the next best out of these guys. The fact that one of them didn't come from Sweden but from Saskatchewan (Trottier) or Montreal (Bossy) is not relevant. Case in point a much older and battered Gretzky led the NHL in points by 10 in 1994. This was a league that had already had the European invasion and yet a Gretzky we all agree is in some cases a shadow of his former self still led the NHL in points and assists. Mario didn't change from 1989 to 1993 to 1996. Not much anyway. Yet he had 2.3 PPG in 1996 to the next best 1.8. These guys still dominated in some heavy, heavy seasons in NHL history. One thing stayed the same and that was it didn't matter who was playing in the NHL or where they came from, they still dominated. Gretzky took a step down because of age and the Suter injury, not because all of the sudden there were more Euros. Who was better than Gretzky in the 1993 playoffs? Who was better than Lemieux in 1993 overall? No one. And Auston Matthews is hardly a guy I would say poses any sort of threat to competing with Gretzky in today's game.



I'm okay with that, in fact I see it much of the same way. A post-Oiler Gretzky is similar to McDavid today. Gretzky had his final season in 1991 where he lapped the field more or less. Mario was injured most of the year so factor that in, but Mario as always is the exception. There hasn't been another one like him since. The point is Gretzky almost had as many assists in 1991 as the next best player had points. Then Suter happened and things weren't quite the same for him. I think current McDavid is better than, say, a 1991-'94 Gretzky. It isn't by a country mile, but he's better. Likewise, I think Gretzky from 1988-'91 is better than McDavid. Again, not by a country mile and certainly there are similarities, but I take Gretzky slightly. That being said, it is almost unfair to compare anyone to Gretzky from his Oiler days.

I can get behind this. When Wayne won his 1994 Art Ross with 130 points, this was post-Suter hit so I consider this at the tail end of his prime, but then again maybe not prime. Also that year a kid named Jagr got 99 points. Pre-Suter hit, only 4 years prior Wayne got 168 points. Considering how how dominant Jagr became and was still an excellent player until his 40's, I think we should reconsider how good Gretzky was and comparisons to players like Marner is belittling to Wayne...