Speculation: If Bowman is Fired, who replaces him?

[Blackhawkswincup]

You need the right GM at the right time. Bowman was that, at that time. No, he didnt bring in the core, but was a part of it, but he did bring in the proper supporting cast that I'm not sure Dale could have done.

Such a dumb argument going on. Yzerman is just as responsible for the Lightning as Bowman was for the Hawks.

2010 Team

Toews = Drafted by Tallon
Kane = Drafted by Tallon
Hossa = Signed by Bowman
Sharp = Acquired by Tallon
Ladd = Acquired by Tallon
Byfuglien = Drafted by Smith
Versteeg = Acquired by Tallon
Brouwer = Drafted by Pulford
Bolland = Drafted by Pulford
Madden = Signed by Bowman
Fraser = Acquired by Pulford
Eager = Acquired by Tallon
Kopecky = Signed by Bowman
Bickell = Drafted by Pulford
Burish = Drafted by Smith

Keith = Drafted by Smith
Seabrook = Drafted by Smith
Hjalmarsson = Drafted by Tallon
Campbell = Signed by Tallon
Sopel = Acquired by Tallon
Hendry = Signed by Tallon
Boynton = Acquired by Bowman

Niemi = Signed by Tallon
Huet = Signed by Tallon

Most of the supporting cast was acquired by others

Smith , Tallon and Pulford deserve credit for building that team with Bowman getting small share of credit

Hell his father deserves more credit for his role bringing in Hossa/Kopecky

 

[hockeydoug]

Forget Yzerman? The Lightning are his team.

I still think Yzerman gets way too much credit. That is Vinik's team. I think the 2010 team was McDonough's team (hate to admit it) for example. 13 was Bowman's. I think Rutherford isn't a good fit for a large market but there was no mistake who was in charge where he was at.

Put any gm in that spot with that ownership willing to give a gm that much spending power on staff and players and they're going to succeed. Yzerman had some gigantic screwups ownership let him take a Mulligan on. He caught more breaks in a few years than most gms get in a decade. Geez guy walked into Detroit with a dozen or more top 100 picks, a completed tear-down, plenty of assets ,no real cap issues, great ownership, and no timeline or pressure. How many gms don't do really well in those circumstances?

That's the only reason Tallon gets so much unearned credit, he had a deck stacked for him across the board and he still almost botched it. Most gms would have done better than Tallon and I think most gms could do as well as Yzerman by Fall of 2018 (when he said was transitioning out of the way).

 

[Pez68]

the basic argument that is being made is that tampa is yzerman's team because he acquired the majority of their core pieces...brisebois was just there right place right time to take over a team ready to win now...the same exact situation played out for bowman, yeah bowman had to retool a bit but he had an elite core that was mostly the work of other gms

Yzerman didn't build that entire core, either. He inherited Hedman, Stamkos, and Killorn. Three pretty huge f***ing pieces, wouldn't you say? This is a stupid argument. All you're attempting to do is diminish what Bowman has contributed to the Blackhawks' cup wins because people criticized your Doug Wilson pick. The truth is, no Stanley Cup winning team is built by ONE MAN.

How is Bowman more comparable to Brisebois than Yzerman? Brisebois has not made a single change to the team he inherited, and has been a GM for ...a year.

Also, lol @ "retool a bit". He had to completely overhaul the team between 2010 and 2013. His trade deadline acquisitions in 2015 were a big reason they won that cup, too. He pushed the right buttons to push his team over the top. Something Wilson FAILED TO DO REPEATEDLY, despite having a great core to build around in San Jose.

One could also argue that the moves you make to surround your core with the right complimentary pieces, and navigating the salary cap, are JUST as important as finding those core pieces to begin with... Because that's ultimately how you accomplish the ultimate goal. Winning the Stanley Cup.

 

[hockeydoug]

The 2010 team was definitely Dale's team.

The 2013 and 2015 teams were Bowman's.

The 2011-12 teams were bad enough to prove that.

No the 2010 team was McDonough's. They took the keys from Tallon in summer of 2009 starting with dumping Lang.

Tallon would have extended Savard and Havlat and signed another flurry of terribly designed extensions. Keith's extension, Kane and Toews' extensions were key to allowing the team to play to win and that had more to do with McDonough than any other party.

 

[Pez68]

Also being missed in this discussion. When two GMs are equally successful when it comes to long term regular season success... the next logical measuring stick is....playoff success. Is it not?

 

[RayP]

Hell, even Sakic hasn’t made it past the 2nd round yet and look at how great of a job he’s done building that roster. It’s tough to do and it makes the Hawks 3 in 6 even more impressive and special.

Landeskog should be the one they move on from but you can’t help but think it’s going to end up being MacKinnon or Makar somehow given their situation. It’ll be interesting to see what the do, but they should just say thanks to Landeskog for what he’s done but see ya.

 

[Pez68]

No the 2010 team was McDonough's. They took the keys from Tallon in summer of 2009 starting with dumping Lang.

Tallon would have extended Savard and Havlat and signed another flurry of terribly designed extensions. Keith's extension, Kane and Toews' extensions were key to allowing the team to play to win and that had more to do with McDonough than any other party.

Havlat over Hossa likely would have cost them three cups. To believe otherwise is to not understand the impact Marian Hossa had on this team. It's not a coincidence that his retirement was the beginning of the end of Chicago's run. He was that important.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

It's also possible that Bowman keeps his job.

I said in the thread that I talked to people in HR and they think the Hawks did what any company would do from an upper management standpoint. Aldrich was fired, and according to the HR folks it's not the Hawks responsibility to go to the police.

Is it unfortunate that Aldrich went on to be a predator elsewhere? Yes. Are some things that are alleged to happen to John Doe 1 shitty? Yes. I don't think they really have much legal liability here though.

 

[hockeydoug]

Not a Doug Wilson fan. He hit on a couple of big moves (to his credit) and then did nothing except "win now"...but he didn't win. The lockout and geography put the franchise in a position to dominate the division for a very long time too.

Give me Gorton or keep Bowman.

 

[Drumman44]

Not a Doug Wilson fan. He hit on a couple of big moves (to his credit) and then did nothing except "win now"...but he didn't win. The lockout and geography put the franchise in a position to dominate the division for a very long time too.

Give me Gorton or keep Bowman.

If they had snagged Tavares a couple summers back, they could have done some damage. Instead they traded away a huge amount of futures for EK65 just a few months later.

 

[RayP]

If they had snagged Tavares a couple summers back, they could have done some damage. Instead they traded away a huge amount of futures for EK65 just a few months later.

Was Taveras even an option for them? I thought he was only going to sign in Toronto.


EK contract makes the Seabrook contract look like nothing.

 

[hockeydoug]

he also got ladd and drafted kruger...to say he was a pretty awful gm during his time during chicago is just false...and this isn't a bring back dale tallon pitch, he had his mistakes and they were problematic, but much of the core pieces from 2010/13/15 teams were not bowman, thats the point being made

Tallon didn't understand the CBA. He was really bad and if there was a hockey media present during his time, he would have been hammered for most of his smaller and larger decisions.

 

[Pez68]

Not a Doug Wilson fan. He hit on a couple of big moves (to his credit) and then did nothing except "win now"...but he didn't win. The lockout and geography put the franchise in a position to dominate the division for a very long time too.

Give me Gorton or keep Bowman.

The Karlsson trade and signing absolutely sinks him. He gambled the future, and lost. He also failed repeatedly to make the right TDL acquisitions to get that team over the hump.

Their future looks way better right now with Stutzle and Norris instead of Karlsson. They have an absurd number of bad contracts on the books, that will handicap them going forward.

Couture is 32, and signed for SIX more seasons at $8M per.

Evander Kane is 29 and has four more seasons at $7M per.

Karlsson 31, SIX more seasons at $11.5M.

Burns is 32, four more seasons at $8M per.

Vlasic 34, FIVE more seasons at $7M per.

 

[Hawkaholic]

2010 Team

Toews = Drafted by Tallon
Kane = Drafted by Tallon
Hossa = Signed by Bowman
Sharp = Acquired by Tallon
Ladd = Acquired by Tallon
Byfuglien = Drafted by Smith
Versteeg = Acquired by Tallon
Brouwer = Drafted by Pulford
Bolland = Drafted by Pulford
Madden = Signed by Bowman
Fraser = Acquired by Pulford
Eager = Acquired by Tallon
Kopecky = Signed by Bowman
Bickell = Drafted by Pulford
Burish = Drafted by Smith

Keith = Drafted by Smith
Seabrook = Drafted by Smith
Hjalmarsson = Drafted by Tallon
Campbell = Signed by Tallon
Sopel = Acquired by Tallon
Hendry = Signed by Tallon
Boynton = Acquired by Bowman

Niemi = Signed by Tallon
Huet = Signed by Tallon

Most of the supporting cast was acquired by others

Smith , Tallon and Pulford deserve credit for building that team with Bowman getting small share of credit

Hell his father deserves more credit for his role bringing in Hossa/Kopecky

I was talking about the 13/15 Cups.

 

[Drumman44]

Was Taveras even an option for them? I thought he was only going to sign in Toronto.

EK contract makes the Seabrook contract look like nothing.

My pre baby and pre covid recollection is that the Sharks were one of the three teams JT91 had a sit down meeting with:

Sharks fall short in John Tavares sweepstakes, what’s next?

I swear I had not read this before making my comments, but it seems pretty spot on.

John Tavares Choosing Toronto Led to Sharks’ Downfall

Looks like Doug Wilson offered him McDavid money. 7 years x 12.5 million

 

[Rick C137]

People really under value the difficulty of acquiring the right support players to compliment your core while staying under the cap. I honestly think that’s the harder part. You can luck in to drafting a pretty high end core by being bad and drafting bpa. You can’t luck into turning a good core into a champion.

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

2010 Team

Toews = Drafted by Tallon
Kane = Drafted by Tallon
Hossa = Signed by Bowman
Sharp = Acquired by Tallon
Ladd = Acquired by Tallon
Byfuglien = Drafted by Smith
Versteeg = Acquired by Tallon
Brouwer = Drafted by Pulford
Bolland = Drafted by Pulford
Madden = Signed by Bowman
Fraser = Acquired by Pulford
Eager = Acquired by Tallon
Kopecky = Signed by Bowman
Bickell = Drafted by Pulford
Burish = Drafted by Smith

Keith = Drafted by Smith
Seabrook = Drafted by Smith
Hjalmarsson = Drafted by Tallon
Campbell = Signed by Tallon
Sopel = Acquired by Tallon
Hendry = Signed by Tallon
Boynton = Acquired by Bowman

Niemi = Signed by Tallon
Huet = Signed by Tallon

Most of the supporting cast was acquired by others

Smith , Tallon and Pulford deserve credit for building that team with Bowman getting small share of credit

Hell his father deserves more credit for his role bringing in Hossa/Kopecky

Now do the 13 and 15 teams....

 

[Kevin Musto]

 

[Drumman44]

Don't you put that evil on me, Ricky Bobby

 

[JaegerDice]

Gorton seems like the obvious pick.

 

[Pez68]

People really under value the difficulty of acquiring the right support players to compliment your core while staying under the cap. I honestly think that’s the harder part. You can luck in to drafting a pretty high end core by being bad and drafting bpa. You can’t luck into turning a good core into a champion.

Plenty of teams put together a pretty good core that never does shit. I really do think filling in the missing pieces and navigating the cap is the hardest part.

 

[Giovi]

2010 Team

Toews = Drafted by Tallon
Kane = Drafted by Tallon
Hossa = Signed by Bowman
Sharp = Acquired by Tallon
Ladd = Acquired by Tallon
Byfuglien = Drafted by Smith
Versteeg = Acquired by Tallon
Brouwer = Drafted by Pulford
Bolland = Drafted by Pulford
Madden = Signed by Bowman
Fraser = Acquired by Pulford
Eager = Acquired by Tallon
Kopecky = Signed by Bowman
Bickell = Drafted by Pulford
Burish = Drafted by Smith

Keith = Drafted by Smith
Seabrook = Drafted by Smith
Hjalmarsson = Drafted by Tallon
Campbell = Signed by Tallon
Sopel = Acquired by Tallon
Hendry = Signed by Tallon
Boynton = Acquired by Bowman

Niemi = Signed by Tallon
Huet = Signed by Tallon

Most of the supporting cast was acquired by others

Smith , Tallon and Pulford deserve credit for building that team with Bowman getting small share of credit

Hell his father deserves more credit for his role bringing in Hossa/Kopecky

That's some pretty good cherry picking right there, just doing the 2010 team. Try the other 2 cup winners.

 

[JaegerDice]

Plenty of teams put together a pretty good core that never does shit. I really do think filling in the missing pieces and navigating the cap is the hardest part.

Stan Bowman rebuilt the Blackhawks in 2 seasons. From bare-bones cap purge to one of the best teams of the cap era.

It took the Penguins, with 2 of the top 3 players of this generation, 7 years to rebuild around their core and win another cup.

It may well be past time for Bowman to go, but people who hand-wave his success away as a by-product of the GMs before him are out to lunch.

 

[ClydeLee]

What's the vendiagram look like of people who think Bowman doesn't even deserve major credit for 13/15 cups and thought in 2011-2012 Kane should of been traded for Miller or something.

 

[Toews2Bickell]