Hypothetical: If Ovechkin reaches 950 or 1000 goals, is he top ten all-time?

[qcal1427]

I guess it's a longevity thing vs a prime thing. He had a great prime. And it's cool he's padding goals but I don't think anyone has considered him a top player in the league the last 6-7 years. Were his 10 elite years top 10 in the nhl all time? Was he the best goal scorer ever or just the one who played the longest?

His elite years were that good.

For example, A healthy lemieux probably smashes the goal scoring record. Bossy?

And if Troy Brouwer or Curtis Glenncross or Dan Winnik don't choke away empty nets Ovi probably has at least one more Cup. You an always play the "if" game. Only one guy has actually done it.

 

[Booker T]

I don't see a reasonable argument for leaving Ovechkin out of the top 10 as of today. Maybe if we're including goalies, but that's really difficult to do, which is why they're usually left out.

 

[Video Nasty]

Gretzky
Howe
Orr
Lemieux
Hasek
Roy
Jagr
Crosby
McDavid
Hull
Beliveau
Bourque
Lidstrom
Harvey

Not saying all these guys are ranked higher but at least eight of them are for me. It’s not a slam dunk and some really good players will be left out of the top 10.

I understand many posters here are too young to give a crap about some of these names. But this topic involves looking at historical players and not just recent ones.

Exactly. Normally I don’t like dogging on “younger” fans because we were all there at one point, and there’s always going to be older and younger fans than as individuals, and there’s only more younger fans as we continue to age, and like it or not, most people don’t give a shit about anything that happened before their birth year or even when they gained consciousness.

That said, I see a similar attitude in basketball discussions. So many younger fans just can’t fathom that these leagues have a long history and at a certain point, it’s inevitable that an unbelievable all-timer is going to spill over outside the top 10. It’s not a slight—it’s just that there have been a lot of seasons for these leagues, particularly the NHL in this comparison.

Taking your list, we could literally make an arbitrary start point of 1979-1980 through present day, less than half of the league’s history, and we could still see Ovechkin making an appearance at just #10.

That’s leaving out Orr and Howe entirely, who basically cannot be dislodged from any top 4-5 for the foreseeable future.

 

[qcal1427]

He is but as a whole player id take Crosby, McDavid, arguably Peak Malkin over him and that's just players currently in the league and not projecting (for example) Makar as a truly all-time great defenceman.

Ovechkin had more Hart wins by the time he was 26 than Makar has Norris trophies. You're not taking peak Malkin over peak Ovi either. McDavid is not the same generation as Ovi/Crosby.

So let's say he is 3rd amongst active forwards when all is said and done and that's just one generation out of 15 or so. Far from a good argument in my opinion. Even if you limit it to somewhat "modern" players it's atleast 5-6 generations.

Ovechkin has played for 20 years, or almost 1/3rd of the post original 6 league or 1/4th of the post-WW2 league.

 

[qcal1427]

Exactly. Normally I don’t like dogging on “younger” fans because we were all there at one point, and there’s always going to be older and younger fans than as individuals, and there’s only more younger fans as we continue to age, and like it or not, most people don’t give a shit about anything that happened before their birth year or even when they gained consciousness.

That said, I see a similar attitude in basketball discussions. So many younger fans just can’t fathom that these leagues have a long history and at a certain point, it’s inevitable that an unbelievable all-timer is going to spill over outside the top 10. It’s not a slight—it’s just that there have been a lot of seasons for these leagues, particularly the NHL in this comparison.

Taking your list, we could literally make an arbitrary start point of 1979-1980 through present day, less than half of the league’s history, and we could still see Ovechkin making an appearance at just #10.

That’s leaving out Orr and Howe entirely, who basically cannot be dislodged from any top 4-5 for the foreseeable future.

Older fans love pointing to guys like Harvey who won a bunch of Norris' back when he was literally competing against like 30 other guys for the award and can't understand the concept of things being harder to win in the modern era

 

[Video Nasty]

Older fans love pointing to guys like Harvey who won a bunch of Norris' back when he was literally competing against like 30 other guys for the award and can't understand the concept of things being harder to win in the modern era

There’s truth to that too. Both old and young fans alike often have flawed thinking when it comes to sports, and well, life itself really. Once someone gets a little older, they’re simply less willing to consider that maybe their childhood wasn’t actually the greatest thing ever. On the flip side, a younger fan can often dismiss something from before their time without an ounce of research.

 

[GMR]

Older fans love pointing to guys like Harvey who won a bunch of Norris' back when he was literally competing against like 30 other guys for the award and can't understand the concept of things being harder to win in the modern era

There’s more defensemen nowadays but how many are legit Norris contenders? There’s probably three or four good candidates each year. You could say the same about the watered down league Orr played in with expansion.

 

[psycat]

Ovechkin had more Hart wins by the time he was 26 than Makar has Norris trophies. You're not taking peak Malkin over peak Ovi either. McDavid is not the same generation as Ovi/Crosby.

Ovechkin has played for 20 years, or almost 1/3rd of the post original 6 league or 1/4th of the post-WW2 league.

Even then let's say McDavid will clear Ovi once all is said and done, think all indications point to that. Crosby is debatable I guess, then you have Jagr which is also detabatable(but I would really argue that he is just a tier above). So say he clears one of them then we have McDavid and Jagr/Crosby ahead and im being more than generous here.

So that leaves 8 spots, the big 4 are obvious and not detabatable, leaves it at 4 spots. Is Ovechkins career/peak really that much better than say Crosby/Jagr, Hasek, Lidström, Bourque and Bobby Hull? I guess you could place him at the top of that bunch but could also make a case that Hasek as most dominant goalie ever got a secure spot over him and that Lidström+Bourque with their just as impressive long careers are in the same echelon.

And that's without getting into players like Beliveau, Richard and LaFleur, Eddie Shore etc. Frankly I don't know enough about them to make an informed valuation. Some would probably argue Harvey, Makarov, Roy etc aswell but those I don't personally agree with.

I would say top 10 forwards is a pretty realistic preposition for Ovechkin but maybe he is somewhat of a clear top 10 if you believe all of them, sans Orr, are indeed forwards.

As I said no real problem with people having Ovechkin in their top 10s but to pretend it's some kind of undisputed truth I don't agree with.

 

[The Shadow]

Matthews on pace to score 400 goals in less games than Ovi

Let’s see how fast his next 500 goals go

Alex Ovechkin becomes sixth fastest player to score 400 goals

Alex Ovechkin scored his 400th career goal on Friday, and became the sixth-fastest player to reach that milestone in NHL history. Player Games to 400 Wayne Gretzky 436 Mike Bossy 506 Mario Lemieux 508 Brett Hull 520 Jari Kurri 608 Alex Ovechkin 634 The feat is even more notable...

www.thescore.com

 

[Demandedace]

Matthews on pace to score 400 goals in less games than Ovi

Let’s see how fast his next 500 goals go

Alex Ovechkin becomes sixth fastest player to score 400 goals

Alex Ovechkin scored his 400th career goal on Friday, and became the sixth-fastest player to reach that milestone in NHL history. Player Games to 400 Wayne Gretzky 436 Mike Bossy 506 Mario Lemieux 508 Brett Hull 520 Jari Kurri 608 Alex Ovechkin 634 The feat is even more notable...

www.thescore.com

View attachment 1007326

In a much higher scoring era? Ya don't say

 

[Demandedace]

If he wins a cup this year and is a prominent reason then he’ll go in my top ten. Right now he’s just outside of it but honestly after the big 5 (with Crosby) everyone between 6-15 has an argument to be there.

Lol who is your top 10 if he is still not inside of it? This logic is a joke

 

[TheSmokingMan]

Ovi could get to 1000 goals if he wanted to. It's his decision if he plays that long.

I don't really like ranking the all-time greats in any order. It's too difficult to compare players from different eras. I prefer to look at the all-time greats in the context of their peers.

Scoring goals is the hardest thing in hockey to do, and he's the best to ever do it. Not having him on the Mount Rushmore of all-time greats would be criminal. No other player has broken as many goal scoring records as he has. He's incomparable, and we may never see another player like him.

Ovechkin's uniqueness makes me believe that he's also the player that will be remembered the most from this generation. Fans will be talking about him for decades and players will be chasing his records. The legend of Alex the Great will continue to grow far into the future.

 

[shello]

1. Matthews - 397
2. Draisaitl - 378
3. Ovechkin - 369
4. Pastrnak - 360
5. McDavid. - 345

Can’t see Matthews doing it for as long as Ovi though

 

[User9992]

 

[Luigi Habs]

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
4. Crosby
5. Ovechkin

Looks top 5 to me

 

[Lou Sassole]

How are we defining top 10 of all time? If it’s relative to their peers, not a single player will ever be better than Gretzky. It was different circumstances in that era.

If it’s absolute skill - who is better - Gretzky wouldn’t even touch top 10. I mean Patty Kane is a better hockey player than Wayne. He’s just in an era where the talent pool is significantly better, and where top line players simply can’t score at the rates we used to see. McDavid clears everyone by a country mile and is he greatest player to ever lace up skates. Maybe not compared to his peers, but that’s why I ask what the heck people are asking when making these lists.

I know we are talking about Ovechkin here, and not Wayne. But it makes a difference in where we place them compared to old generation players.

If you think McDavid clears Lemieux by a country mile, I want some of what you're smoking.

 

[Signupnow]

Matthews on pace to score 400 goals in less games than Ovi

Let’s see how fast his next 500 goals go

Alex Ovechkin becomes sixth fastest player to score 400 goals

Alex Ovechkin scored his 400th career goal on Friday, and became the sixth-fastest player to reach that milestone in NHL history. Player Games to 400 Wayne Gretzky 436 Mike Bossy 506 Mario Lemieux 508 Brett Hull 520 Jari Kurri 608 Alex Ovechkin 634 The feat is even more notable...

www.thescore.com

View attachment 1007326

You know when you get older how peoples noses tend to get bigger. Now The piglet already have an impressive set of nostrals that is not exactly aerodynamic which may very well slow his pace to this day but moving forward as they might get bigger i do not think he will be able to keep up with the pace. There is a reason the F-22 Raptor does not look similar to his face

 

[The Shadow]

In a much higher scoring era? Ya don't say

Only 1 50 goal scorer this year? No that’s not true at all

 

[Troubadour]

Not for me.

No forty assist a year for the majority of their career guy has any business being in my top ten of all time, sorry. I understand why some people value goals more than assists, but the greatest of them all could/can do both.

 

[zappa4ever]

Not for me.

No forty assist a year for the majority of their career guy has any business being in my top ten of all time, sorry. I understand why some people value goals more than assists, but the greatest of them all could/can do both.

otherwise known as the "Ignore that OV is a Wing while nearly all the Assist leaders are Centers" argument
despite that OV is Top-50 in Assists by Fwd and around Top-10 in Assists by Winger

 

[CactusCap]

Not for me.

No forty assist a year for the majority of their career guy has any business being in my top ten of all time, sorry. I understand why some people value goals more than assists, but the greatest of them all could/can do both.

Who should the greatest goal scorer of all time pass it to in order for his team to have the best chance of scoring goals?

 

[slapKing]

Not for me.

No forty assist a year for the majority of their career guy has any business being in my top ten of all time, sorry. I understand why some people value goals more than assists, but the greatest of them all could/can do both.

If you don't think Ovi is top 10, that's fine, but I hope you keep that same energy for Richard and Hull as well since they weren't known for their assists totals

 

[Troubadour]

otherwise known as the "Ignore that OV is a Wing while nearly all the Assist leaders are Centers" argument
despite that OV is Top-50 in Assists by Fwd and around Top-10 in Assists by Winger

His yearly average beats the one of Kovalchuk's by two.

In total games played, he sits at 27. In assists, he sits at 56 or something.

I uderstand people are WOWed by 894 goals, but Ovi, for the most part, was an 80-90 point a year type of scorer.

Also, 65 of those goals are empty netters. Just a bit of trivia for those who claim that "goals are the hardest part of the game". In Ovi's case, about 65 times they were not.

 

[gtrower]

His yearly average beats the one of Kovalchuk's by two.

In total games played, he sits at 27. In assists, he sits at 56 or something.

I uderstand people are WOWed by 894 goals, but Ovi, for the most part, was an 80-90 point a year type of scorer.

Also, 65 of those goals are empty netters. Just a bit of trivia for those who claim that "goals are the hardest part of the game". In Ovi's case, about 65 times they were not.

All time non-ENGs
1. Gretzky - 838
2. Ovechkin - 829

At least put some thought behind the assertion. If you take away Ovi’s ENGs you have to take away everybody’s else’s too. Ovechkin is an equal opportunity scorer regardless of game state.

All time Goals
1. Ovechkin - 894
1. Gretzky - 894

All time ENGs
1. Ovechkin - 65
2. Gretzky - 56

All time PPGs
1. Ovechkin - 324
2. Andreychuck - 274

All time ESGs
1. Gretzky - 617
2. Howe - 566
3. Ovechkin - 565

All time GWGs
1. Ovechkin - 136
2. Jagr - 135

All time OTGs
1. Ovechkin - 27
2. Crosby - 24

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Massively overrated.

Top 10?

At stats?

Sure.

At winning?

I can think of 25 players that would better help you win a must win game 7.

He’s no more a top 10 guy than Brett Hull was.

Fun to watch. Greatest scorer.

But what actually matters is not pure stats, but a player’s net effect on the ice.

And there is this whole other part of the game called defense where he’s arguably the worst floater of the modern era.

Hockey isn’t just stats.

This is a take. A bad one, but it’s a take.,