Hurricanes sale formally closed, Tom Dundon now majority owner

[HisIceness]

Shocked at the lack of sympathy for hartford's hockey fans. But you would be among the first to tell people to respect Carolina.


And CT is the richest state in the union.

Hold on a second here sir.

I'm not sure where or why you get the impression that I "lack sympathy" for Hartford. For the record I do feel bad for the die-hards of that team and as a Charlotte Hornets fan I've been through relocation before, it sucks.

But I would like to reiterate here, a lot of these folks who are clamoring that the Canes need to return to Hartford are not Whalers fans nor were ever Whaler fans. More than 50% of them were probably at best in diapers in 1997. We've been putting up with their (all the traditionalists) crap for years now and have been constantly told everything the Whalers/Nordiques did was gold and everything the 'Canes do is ****.

I know some former Whalers-turned Hurricanes fans. I tailgate with them. They think it is funny that so many people are suddenly wanting a Whalers return when very few people gave a damn about them before 1997 (their words not mine). They've told me numerous times that the building was always full of opposing fans when the Rangers and Bruins and sometimes the Islanders in their dynasty years came to town. They've told me about how CT's governor and Hartfords mayor had no interest in a new Whalers arena and instead wanted to lure the Patriots out of Foxborough, which more or less pressed Karmanos' hand in relocating the team.

I think it is ridiculous that people are so ingrained with nostalgia that they can't see why Hartford is not suitable for an NHL team. There's no arena, the city is losing population, it's close to bankruptcy, it's already in-between two metros with a combined 4 NHL teams. How does this make sense?

It doesn't. The ship has sailed.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Agree with you on Karmanos but he is not responsible for the phenomenon of Twitter being populated by idiots. Many of these people, as I said, weren't even alive (or were small children) when the Whalers moved, and many more were never even Whaler fans and just have an axe to grind against any place south of the Mason-Dixon with a hockey team.

I do not have to make anything clear that wasn't directly related to my original post. This wouldn't even be an issue if you hadn't tried to put words in my mouth.

I digress.

Hold on a second here sir.

I'm not sure where or why you get the impression that I "lack sympathy" for Hartford. For the record I do feel bad for the die-hards of that team and as a Charlotte Hornets fan I've been through relocation before, it sucks.

But I would like to reiterate here, a lot of these folks who are clamoring that the Canes need to return to Hartford are not Whalers fans nor were ever Whaler fans. More than 50% of them were probably at best in diapers in 1997. We've been putting up with their (all the traditionalists) crap for years now and have been constantly told everything the Whalers/Nordiques did was gold and everything the 'Canes do is ****.

I know some former Whalers-turned Hurricanes fans. I tailgate with them. They think it is funny that so many people are suddenly wanting a Whalers return when very few people gave a damn about them before 1997 (their words not mine). They've told me numerous times that the building was always full of opposing fans when the Rangers and Bruins and sometimes the Islanders in their dynasty years came to town. They've told me about how CT's governor and Hartfords mayor had no interest in a new Whalers arena and instead wanted to lure the Patriots out of Foxborough, which more or less pressed Karmanos' hand in relocating the team.

I think it is ridiculous that people are so ingrained with nostalgia that they can't see why Hartford is not suitable for an NHL team. There's no arena, the city is losing population, it's close to bankruptcy, it's already in-between two metros with a combined 4 NHL teams. How does this make sense?

It doesn't. The ship has sailed.

Fair enough.

You do realize that the city of Hartford is close to being bankrupt....

Hartford proper is going bankrupt. Not the suburbs.

 

[Roboturner913]

you mentioned a fanbase that hasn't had a hockey team in 20 years.

Ahem, the first person to mention the word "Whalers" in this thread did it in taking an obvious swipe at Hurricanes fans, as people have been doing now for the past 20 years with no apparent end in sight. So don't be surprised when there's a reaction.

If you want to get on somebody's case about 'disrespect' in this little tangent, get on his. Post #32, on this thread.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm so glad to be almost done with this as a recurring argument.

 

[Gnashville]

Great news! Now the vultures can go circle somewhere else.

 

[HisIceness]

Great news! Now the vultures can go circle somewhere else.

Personally I'm hoping the Isles/Panthers/Coyotes get their **** fixed so the vultures can go extinct

I'm so glad to be almost done with this as a recurring argument.

No kidding, now the Montreal beat-writers will have to find something else to write about when they come to Raleigh. Maybe we should take them out for BBQ

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Well goodbye panthers. Unless the league does a weird alignment and Arizona goes to Quebec or something

Panthers are not going anywhere. People just gotta accept Quebec is owed nothing.

 

[Syckle78]

I can't believe people are so quick to eat this up and accept this as the end of the story. Some guy just pops up and offers a ridiculous price for an nhl team in a questionable market. Why? Out of the goodness of his heart to cane fans? Because he's in the business of losing money for fun? Nobody is even going to question why this guy is paying 500m for a team where he will never make his money back at best and will probably lose quite a bit more on top of it? It's as if nobody has had any exposure to the ownership goings on in small markets for nhl teams.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I can't believe people are so quick to eat this up and accept this as the end of the story. Some guy just pops up and offers a ridiculous price for an nhl team in a questionable market. Why? Out of the goodness of his heart to cane fans? Because he's in the business of losing money for fun? Nobody is even going to question why this guy is paying 500m for a team where he will never make his money back at best and will probably lose quite a bit more on top of it? It's as if nobody has had any exposure to the ownership goings on in small markets for nhl teams.

It's almost as if you're wildly speculating that there must be something wrong here because, in principle, there just HAS to be.

 

[Syckle78]

It's almost as if you're wildly speculating that there must be something wrong here because, in principle, there just HAS to be.

No it's almost as if I'm asking questions. I didn't speculate anything. I'm asking how this makes sense. It's almost as if you're so quick to accept him as the savior of the franchise in Raleigh you're not even bothering to question anything.

 

[tarheelhockey]

No it's almost as if I'm asking questions. I didn't speculate anything. I'm asking how this makes sense. It's almost as if you're so quick to accept him as the savior of the franchise in Raleigh you're not even bothering to question anything.

"Just asking questions" is so 2016. Just own up to the subtext behind the questions. It's more honest.

 

[Syckle78]

"Just asking questions" is so 2016. Just own up to the subtext behind the questions. It's more honest.

I didn't realize I was dealing with a mind reader. Clearly that's my bad. I don't have an agenda here. I'm not rooting for any city to lose their team and I've never posted in a way to give anyone that idea. I'm absolutely cynical of any owner that pops up in this situations that appear too good to be true. The history of tge nhl perspective owners has given me every reason to be so. If you're to emotionally involved to discuss the issue with a skeptical eye without getting personal than I invite to merely skip past my posts. I have every right to question this transaction.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

You have every right to question the transaction. Just don't be surprised when others with a better grip on the situation find your questioning to be ridiculous.

 

[Roboturner913]

I can't believe people are so quick to eat this up and accept this as the end of the story. Some guy just pops up and offers a ridiculous price for an nhl team in a questionable market. Why?

Market isn't nearly as "questionable" as you think it is. Team is on the verge of being competitive for a long time and there are lots of people in the area with lots of disposable income. Nobody ever said the market was "questionable" when the team was winning.

Also, from Forbes magazine:

The population of the Raleigh, N.C., metropolitan statistical area has expanded a remarkable 47.8% since 2000, tops among the nation’s 52 metro areas with over 1 million residents. That is more than three times the overall 12.7% growth of those 52 metro areas.

I mean, basic tenet of Business 101: the more people there are in your area, the more potential customers there are in your area.

Out of the goodness of his heart to cane fans? Because he's in the business of losing money for fun?

Obviously you haven't been paying attention or read anything at all about this guy, because it seems like he is addicted to owning sports teams. Anyway, I doubt there are a whole lot of people who get into owning a sports team because they think they're going to turn profit. They're likely far more motivated by the prestige or a love of sports. And keep in mind, we're talking about billionaires here. The kind of people who can afford to lose 15-20 million, shrug and write it off on their taxes.

Nobody is even going to question why this guy is paying 500m for a team where he will never make his money back at best and will probably lose quite a bit more on top of it? It's as if nobody has had any exposure to the ownership goings on in small markets for nhl teams.

Again, it's somewhat reasonable to assume that the announced price is being jacked up because the NHL probably doesn't want it out there that it cost significantly less than their fancy new franchise in Las Vegas. There are all kinds of ways to manipulate that number, and many questions unanswered. For instance, is he buying the holding company too? That would include a lot of subsidaries, as well as the ECHL's Everblades, for instance.

And again, who is to say that he will "never make his money back?" How the hell do you know that? He could mitigate his expenditures by selling pieces to minority owners, for instance. And if the team is competitive for an 8-10 year stretch as they appear set up to do, the revenue stream starts looking a whole lot different that it does right now.

 

[VoodooChile]

I didn't realize I was dealing with a mind reader. Clearly that's my bad. I don't have an agenda here. I'm not rooting for any city to lose their team and I've never posted in a way to give anyone that idea. I'm absolutely cynical of any owner that pops up in this situations that appear too good to be true. The history of tge nhl perspective owners has given me every reason to be so. If you're to emotionally involved to discuss the issue with a skeptical eye without getting personal than I invite to merely skip past my posts. I have every right to question this transaction.

So when Karmanos and Balsillie showed up on their respective scenes, were they too good to be true?

If I remember they were both forecoming via relocation threats (Karmanos) or straight up stating relocation intentions (Balsillie).

 

[tarheelhockey]

I didn't realize I was dealing with a mind reader. Clearly that's my bad. I don't have an agenda here. I'm not rooting for any city to lose their team and I've never posted in a way to give anyone that idea. I'm absolutely cynical of any owner that pops up in this situations that appear too good to be true. The history of tge nhl perspective owners has given me every reason to be so. If you're to emotionally involved to discuss the issue with a skeptical eye without getting personal than I invite to merely skip past my posts. I have every right to question this transaction.

Among the assumptions you've already made in your handful of posts, probably the biggest is that the mega-wealthy buy sports teams in order to make money off them.

If you're going to question something in a combative tone, start with that assumption.

 

[Roboturner913]

Explain to me what part is ridiculous. If this deal had been proposed by someone yesterday everyone would say they're nuts. Yea,I'm totally ridiculous for questioning a 500m valuation of a team in Raleigh.

I think your confirmation bias is blinding you to possibilities that may not have occurred to you, ie. Raleigh is not the black hole you seem to imply it is.

There is an incredible opportunity here for success in the same way there was with the Mavericks before Cuban bought them. Karmanos was never savvy enough (or maybe just didn't care enough) to work all the angles in terms of PR and selling the team to an increasingly affluent community.

 

[Syckle78]

Among the assumptions you've already made in your handful of posts, probably the biggest is that the mega-wealthy buy sports teams in order to make money off them.

If you're going to question something in a combative tone, start with that assumption.

The mega wealthy aren't in the habit of plopping down half a billion for a team in a market that has a history of struggling. Your guys answer is well the team is on the verge of being good. That's great but I don't think that a highly successful businessman is basing such a huge purchase on the proposition of a team being good for a few years where fan interest will be have an uptick before going down again when the team declines.

 

[Syckle78]

So when Karmanos and Balsillie showed up on their respective scenes, were they too good to be true?

If I remember they were both forecoming via relocation threats (Karmanos) or straight up stating relocation intentions (Balsillie).

Balsillie the guy thst wanted to buy a team and move it? That's a great example of why I'm skeptical, thank you. Karmanos was a billionaire business man that had an actual interest in hockey. He wanted a team in grand rapids but that wasn't feasible so took a team where he could. Does this guy have a history with hockey? Idk,seems like a baseball guy to me.

 

[Roboturner913]

The mega wealthy aren't in the habit of plopping down half a billion for a team in a market that has a history of struggling.

Mark Cuban bought the Dallas Mavericks in 2000 for $285 million. Adjusted for inflation, that's $404 million. And they had zero history of any kind of success, unlike the Hurricanes. But like Raleigh, they did have a booming metro area, and lots of people with money to burn.

The Mavericks are now the 9th most valuable franchise in the NBA at an estimated worth of $1.4 billion.

Guess who Greenburg is good buddies with, btw.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The mega wealthy aren't in the habit of plopping down half a billion for a team in a market that has a history of struggling. Your guys answer is well the team is on the verge of being good. That's great but I don't think that a highly successful businessman is basing such a huge purchase on the proposition of a team being good for a few years where fan interest will be have an uptick before going down again when the team declines.

Today at work I dealt with a man who said, and I quote directly, "I needs somewhere to put fifty million dollars before I die."

People have all sorts of motivations for what they do with their money. Just because you aren't privy to (or simply don't understand) those motivations doesn't mean they're works of fiction.

 

[Svechhammer]

Mark Cuban bought the Dallas Mavericks in 2000 for $285 million. Adjusted for inflation, that's $404 million. And they had zero history of any kind of success, unlike the Hurricanes.

The Mavericks are now the 9th most valuable franchise in the NBA at an estimated worth of $1.4 billion.

MOD

Raleigh is a good market that hasn't been tapped into properly. This new guy looks to be changing that in a big way.

And it's also interesting that as bad a market as some would accuse Raleigh to be, it's neck deep in securing another major professional Franchise in what is going on with MLS right now.

 

[Syckle78]

I think your confirmation bias is blinding you to possibilities that may not have occurred to you, ie. Raleigh is not the black hole you seem to imply it is.

There is an incredible opportunity here for success in the same way there was with the Mavericks before Cuban bought them. Karmanos was never savvy enough (or maybe just didn't care enough) to work all the angles in terms of PR and selling the team to an increasingly affluent community.

I never said Raleigh is a black hole. I never said a team couldn't succeed there. I'm saying it's not a half billion dollar market. But hey perhaps the guy just wants a new toy and cares nothing about the business side of it. I suppose owning a pro sports team is the ultimate billionaire trophy.

 

[FreshSeabass]

Balsillie the guy thst wanted to buy a team and move it? That's a great example of why I'm skeptical, thank you. Karmanos was a billionaire business man that had an actual interest in hockey. He wanted a team in grand rapids but that wasn't feasible so took a team where he could. Does this guy have a history with hockey? Idk,seems like a baseball guy to me.

There is this cool thing called google which you should have used to at least look the guy up before saying this.

 

[Roboturner913]

I'm saying it's not a half billion dollar market.

Again, I point you to the Dallas Mavericks. Very similar demographics and dynamics at work here. They were purchased for $400+ million (adjusted for inflation) nearly 20 years ago and have since tripled the franchise value. And they were pretty much the doldrums - one of the least successful major league franchises in any sport.

But hey perhaps the guy just wants a new toy and cares nothing about the business side of it. I suppose owning a pro sports team is the ultimate billionaire trophy.

And I think you are correct. When a person has that much money, you can only buy so many cars and houses. You have to put it somewhere. Short of building a giant vault and diving into coins Scrooge McDuck style, or having your military R&D guy come up with a bunch of advanced tech and tactical gear so you can play Batman, a sports franchise seems like the popular choice.