Hurricanes sale formally closed, Tom Dundon now majority owner

[Mightygoose]

For what it’s worth, back in the summer when all of this first came up I projected that we should hear actual progress by Christmas. I’m not saying I’m an expert or insider, far from it, but I think 6 months is a reasonable timeframe for something like this.

I concur with this timeline and felt this way when this story broke as well.

Should be no sense of panic right now but hopefully they'll be movement in a couple months.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

By that rationale, Connecticut should never have had an NHL team in the first place.

NHL players from CT prior to 1988:

Moe Roberts, G, 1930s - 10 games played
Frank Beisler, D, 1930s - 2 games played
Richard Bittner, G, 1950 - 1 game played

Sad!

The list for any state wouldn't look much better prior to expansion. Frank Brimsek and Tom Williams would have been the only notable American players and both were from Minnesota.

 

[SunDancer]

By that rationale, Connecticut should never have had an NHL team in the first place.

NHL players from CT prior to 1988:

Moe Roberts, G, 1930s - 10 games played
Frank Beisler, D, 1930s - 2 games played
Richard Bittner, G, 1950 - 1 game played

Sad!

Sorry, but exactly what rationale are we talking about? Is it the one that assumes the presence or absence of an NHL team is directly related to the health of the local hockey community?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Sorry, but exactly what rationale are we talking about?

Clearly not a very coherent one.

 

[aqib]

Who cares about who players hockey right now? Did Greenberg buy the team or not is what I want to know.

I'm sure when the deal closes someone will post it without anyone having to ask. Its not going to go unmentioned. Until then, like all threads, this one is going to have tangents. Otherwise the thread will look like this:

Day 1:
First post - did the deal close yet
Second post - No
Day 2:
First Post - did the deal close yet
Second post - No
Day 3:
First Post - did the deal close yet
Second post - No
Day 4:
First Post - did the deal close yet
Second post - No

And so on. As you can see that would get boring.

 

[aqib]

I mean... those are real world tasks that have to be done. We’re talking about securing $500M worth of financing from a group of investors, to purchase a business which is tied up with a government entity... it’s a bit more involved than selling your car on Craigslist.

Almost every sports is tied up with a government, the Rockets are tied up with a government. Clearly, Greenberg either doesn't have, or isn't willing to put up the entire purchase price. Lets not act as though the reason the deal isn't done is attorneys quibbling over wording on contracts.

 

[SunDancer]

Clearly not a very coherent one.

Sorry, I should have used the sarcasm font. My point was that a city doesn't need an NHL team to have a good hockey scene and vice versa ... the presence of an NHL team doesn't necessarily mean it's a good hockey town. The game is not restricted to the NHL and has a life of its own.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Almost every sports is tied up with a government, the Rockets are tied up with a government. Clearly, Greenberg either doesn't have, or isn't willing to put up the entire purchase price. Lets not act as though the reason the deal isn't done is attorneys quibbling over wording on contracts.

We know that Greenberg doesn't have the entire purchase price in his personal fortune. Hence assembling a group of investors. This has been openly known since the summer.

Also, while plenty of teams take government money for their arenas, the Hurricanes are bound to contracts with the Centennial Authority which acts on behalf of the State of North Carolina, Wake County, and NC State University. Any major change in their arrangements are going to be subject to scrutiny by the Authority which acts on the interests of those three public entities. Furthermore, it's not as though Greenberg is just buying the Carolina Hurricanes. He's also negotiating with a private entity (Karmanos) for the sale of both the NHL franchise AND Gale Force Holdings, which has operating rights to PNC Arena -- and that is a complicated transaction in its own right.

Again, this is not as simple as selling a frozen banana. There is an arduous process involved in this kind of transaction, even if there is no objection or bargaining taking place on either side. Neither side is just going to pop out into the media and say "yeah we're good to go" until the deal is greenlit. There is too much liability involved and too many levels of due diligence to just assume that it's all going to be fine.

So, again -- we're talking about an individual assembling $500M worth of finances from an investment group, then striking a deal for a large and complex private entity which is contractually bound to an assembly of public entities. It's going to take time, and nobody involved has anything to gain from blabbing about it in the press.

The only difference between this and the theoretical sale of the Oilers or Sabres or Rangers or Leafs, is the Hurricanes don't have a bunch of local reporters throwing chum in the water to create clickbait during the waiting process. We're actually going to have to hold tight and see what happens when there's something real to report.

Sorry, I should have used the sarcasm font. My point was that a city doesn't need an NHL team to have a good hockey scene and vice versa ... the presence of an NHL team doesn't necessarily mean it's a good hockey town. The game is not restricted to the NHL and has a life of its own.

I completely agree, and would add that in regions where college/junior hockey isn't established, you could have 100,000 local players and zero NHL players to show for it. The lack of a reasonable pipeline to higher leagues is an issue for most of the United States.

 

[aqib]

We know that Greenberg doesn't have the entire purchase price in his personal fortune. Hence assembling a group of investors. This has been openly known since the summer.

Also, while plenty of teams take government money for their arenas, the Hurricanes are bound to contracts with the Centennial Authority which acts on behalf of the State of North Carolina, Wake County, and NC State University. Any major change in their arrangements are going to be subject to scrutiny by the Authority which acts on the interests of those three public entities. Furthermore, it's not as though Greenberg is just buying the Carolina Hurricanes. He's also negotiating with a private entity (Karmanos) for the sale of both the NHL franchise AND Gale Force Holdings, which has operating rights to PNC Arena -- and that is a complicated transaction in its own right.

Again, this is not as simple as selling a frozen banana. There is an arduous process involved in this kind of transaction, even if there is no objection or bargaining taking place on either side. Neither side is just going to pop out into the media and say "yeah we're good to go" until the deal is greenlit. There is too much liability involved and too many levels of due diligence to just assume that it's all going to be fine.

So, again -- we're talking about an individual assembling $500M worth of finances from an investment group, then striking a deal for a large and complex private entity which is contractually bound to an assembly of public entities. It's going to take time, and nobody involved has anything to gain from blabbing about it in the press.

The only difference between this and the theoretical sale of the Oilers or Sabres or Rangers or Leafs, is the Hurricanes don't have a bunch of local reporters throwing chum in the water to create clickbait during the waiting process. We're actually going to have to hold tight and see what happens when there's something real to report.

I think you are exaggerating how complicated this is. Over the last 10-15 years we've been averaging 1 franchise sale a year in the NHL same in the NBA and MLB. NFL you are averaging 1 every 2 years. Every team has multiple operating entities involved. Heck we've seen deals involving multiple franchises get done faster. MLSE had Leafs, Raptors, Marlies, Toronto FC, Raptors 905, and leases with two city owned venues. Not to mention that it was being sold by a government regulated pension fund to 3 owners, two of which were large media corporations. Yes its not selling a car. That takes 1 day. But its not like you're renegotiating NAFTA here.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think you are exaggerating how complicated this is. Over the last 10-15 years we've been averaging 1 franchise sale a year in the NHL same in the NBA and MLB. NFL you are averaging 1 every 2 years. Every team has multiple operating entities involved. Heck we've seen deals involving multiple franchises get done faster. MLSE had Leafs, Raptors, Marlies, Toronto FC, Raptors 905, and leases with two city owned venues. Not to mention that it was being sold by a government regulated pension fund to 3 owners, two of which were large media corporations. Yes its not selling a car. That takes 1 day. But its not like you're renegotiating NAFTA here.

Announcement of Leafs sale process:
https://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2011/12/9/2623223/toronto-maple-leafs-sale-raptors-bell-canada-rogers
Dec 9, 2011

Government approval:
https://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2012/8/16/3247380/toronto-maple-leafs-sale-bell-rogers
August 16, 2012

Closure of deal:
http://business.financialpost.com/n...mpletes-1-32-billion-mlse-sale-to-rogers-bell
August 22, 2012

# of days from start to finish: 257

Announcement of Hurricanes sale process:
https://sports.yahoo.com/chuck-greenberg-buying-hurricanes-500m-staying-carolina-182107363.html
July 13, 2017

# of days since then: 103

 

[Mightygoose]

In fairness, the government approval with MLSE and the timeline involved was about who was able to buy the team, not if they were able to.

The CTRC ruling was if Bell and Rogers buying would create sort of a duopoly being the two largest media firms. Had nothing to do with the various leases. If was only Bell or Rogers (or none) it would have been done much faster.

 

[aqib]

Announcement of Leafs sale process:
https://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2011/12/9/2623223/toronto-maple-leafs-sale-raptors-bell-canada-rogers
Dec 9, 2011

Government approval:
https://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2012/8/16/3247380/toronto-maple-leafs-sale-bell-rogers
August 16, 2012

Closure of deal:
http://business.financialpost.com/n...mpletes-1-32-billion-mlse-sale-to-rogers-bell
August 22, 2012

# of days from start to finish: 257

Announcement of Hurricanes sale process:
https://sports.yahoo.com/chuck-greenberg-buying-hurricanes-500m-staying-carolina-182107363.html
July 13, 2017

# of days since then: 103

That was an anti-trust review. You don't have that here. Secondly, there isn't even an announcement of a real agreement so far. From the first article you posted: "The current majority owner, the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan, had said as recently as two weeks ago that they would not be selling their 79.53 percent share in the company, but a recent offer from the two cable giants apparently changed their tune." So it took less than two weeks to put the deal and approvals took a few months. Here you are at 103 days and don't even have an agreement.

 

[tarheelhockey]

That was an anti-trust review. You don't have that here. Secondly, there isn't even an announcement of a real agreement so far. From the first article you posted: "The current majority owner, the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan, had said as recently as two weeks ago that they would not be selling their 79.53 percent share in the company, but a recent offer from the two cable giants apparently changed their tune." So it took less than two weeks to put the deal and approvals took a few months. Here you are at 103 days and don't even have an agreement.

So what you just did here is say: "There's always government red tape involved, and it gets done faster than this"... followed an hour later by, "Yeah, that one took a lot longer, but it had government red tape involved!"

 

[tarheelhockey]

In fairness, the government approval with MLSE and the timeline involved was about who was able to buy the team, not if they were able to.

The CTRC ruling was if Bell and Rogers buying would create sort of a duopoly being the two largest media firms. Had nothing to do with the various leases. If was only Bell or Rogers (or none) it would have been done much faster.

And this one would also be done much faster if it were a single massive entity with an unlimited budget to make whatever offer it wanted... not someone putting together an investment group to begin a negotiation process.

If the situation were completely different, it would be completely different.

 

[aqib]

So what you just did here is say: "There's always government red tape involved, and it gets done faster than this"... followed an hour later by, "Yeah, that one took a lot longer, but it had government red tape involved!"

But I'm not talking about CLOSING the deal. I am talking about having a deal FINALIZED. If you had a deal agreed to and it was taking time to close, the parallel would make sense. The article you posted it showed it took less than 2 weeks to hammer out the agreement. Also, the red tape involved in the MLSE deal was an anti-trust review that isn't present in this (or any other) sports deal.

 

[tarheelhockey]

But I'm not talking about CLOSING the deal. I am talking about having a deal FINALIZED. If you had a deal agreed to and it was taking time to close, the parallel would make sense. The article you posted it showed it took less than 2 weeks to hammer out the agreement. Also, the red tape involved in the MLSE deal was an anti-trust review that isn't present in this (or any other) sports deal.

Again -- of course it played out differently, considering it was a completely different situation.

If some individual had said "I will assemble a group of private investors to pool their money and buy the Toronto Maple Leafs", do you think that would have happened in 2 weeks?

And I don't think you're going to get off the hook on the red tape thing here. This situation could very easily end up creating some sort of grievance by a government entity (which is basically what an anti-trust review is) if not properly planned and properly approved ahead of the sale. The whole purpose of doing due diligence is to NOT have something like that happen. The Leafs sale was actually a really good example to bring up in terms of explaining why a bunch of lawyers do a bunch of work before people start handing out keys to NHL franchises.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

Business experts, I have always wondered if it eas the right move that Raleigh was the chosen location for the Whalers and not the bigger city Charlotte.

 

[Oldracer]

^ Just curious, how much time have you spent in either of these cities? Or North Carolina.o

 

[HisIceness]

Business experts, I have always wondered if it eas the right move that Raleigh was the chosen location for the Whalers and not the bigger city Charlotte.

Dear God where do people come up with this nonsense? Charlotte had no arena in 1997, and they don't have one now. The Spectrum Center is nowhere near NHL-viable. Plus, there is/was no way in hell the city can support an NHL/NBA team at the same time, not big enough and not enough sports dollars and interest to go around.

Raleigh is a much better market for the NHL. By far. Even in the 90's when it was still a sleepy 9-5 town.

 

[aqib]

Again -- of course it played out differently, considering it was a completely different situation.

If some individual had said "I will assemble a group of private investors to pool their money and buy the Toronto Maple Leafs", do you think that would have happened in 2 weeks?

And I don't think you're going to get off the hook on the red tape thing here. This situation could very easily end up creating some sort of grievance by a government entity (which is basically what an anti-trust review is) if not properly planned and properly approved ahead of the sale. The whole purpose of doing due diligence is to NOT have something like that happen. The Leafs sale was actually a really good example to bring up in terms of explaining why a bunch of lawyers do a bunch of work before people start handing out keys to NHL franchises.

I think if people had the opportunity to buy pieces of the Leafs you'd have a pretty big line. Let's be real. The holdup in this deal isn't the paperwork its lack of investor interest.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think if people had the opportunity to buy pieces of the Leafs you'd have a pretty big line. Let's be real. The holdup in this deal isn't the paperwork its lack of investor interest.

“Being real” and “making up stories” aren’t the same thing.

 

[Acesolid]

“Being real” and “making up stories” aren’t the same thing.

Well, to be honest, nobody was making up stories a few months ago when a "deal" was agreed. Almost everyone was declaring the Hurricanes "saved".

The reason they are making up stories now is to try to explain why in the world this "deal" isn't closed yet.

I cant say I know why. But if it's not closed by Christmas, I'll probably join the chorus of speculators, because right now it's slowly getting weird. And if in a few more months it's still not closed; it's not normal.

I mean, I remember very well the "parade" of saviors for the Coyotes during the post-bankruptcy era.

The only thing missing is someone on the Hurricanes telling us the deal will be finalized in two weeks... every two weeks, for months / years.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The only thing missing is someone on the Hurricanes telling us the deal will be finalized in two weeks... every two weeks, for months / years.

And that’s exactly the point. We’re not seeing the wild, pointless speculation. Thank god for that, btw.

People who have been paying attention to this are unanimous that it should all be happening behind closed doors, and that it should be taking a long time by the nature of the process, and that October is an unrealistic timeframe to hear REAL news.

People who haven’t been paying attention are free to drive-thru with baseless commentary, if that’s where they really want to stake their opinion.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

Dear God where do people come up with this nonsense? Charlotte had no arena in 1997, and they don't have one now. The Spectrum Center is nowhere near NHL-viable. Plus, there is/was no way in hell the city can support an NHL/NBA team at the same time, not big enough and not enough sports dollars and interest to go around.

Raleigh is a much better market for the NHL. By far. Even in the 90's when it was still a sleepy 9-5 town.

Gee, why so hostile lol. Thanks for the info I guess.

 

[HisIceness]

Gee, why so hostile lol. Thanks for the info I guess.

Sorry for coming off as a douche. Just doing a little venting after watching another lousy game