OT: Hurricanes Lounge XXXIX, Yeah, I get that.

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Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
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I don't think most anyone in their senses would suggest that.

But, the usual accusation against the non-MSM by the MSM is that it's all agenda-driven narrative up to being downright fake news, with the implication and quite often the explication that MSM, on the other hand, is the shining beacon of honest and truthful reporting.

When the MSM fails to be that, they don't look any better than the non-MSM, and their hypocrisy only manages to promote the "pick your own facts" approach of the media-consuming audience.
I agree with most of that, but I'd say that some of the non-MSM stuff to come around lately has taken things to a whole new level.

My experience is that people don't like agenda-driven narratives from news sources, unless it is an agenda-driven narrative that aligns with their own views, then it's just fine. Thus you have the people that ONLY watch CNN or ONLY watch Fox News, etc...
 

Unsustainable

Seth Jarvis has Big Kahunas
Apr 14, 2012
39,102
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I agree with most of that, but I'd say that some of the non-MSM stuff to come around lately has taken things to a whole new level.

My experience is that people don't like agenda-driven narratives from news sources, unless it is an agenda-driven narrative that aligns with their own views, then it's just fine. Thus you have the people that ONLY watch CNN or ONLY watch Fox News, etc...
I can’t watch any of them. The best I can find is Breaking Points, Saagar and Krystal, one left and one right point of view that work together. I also watch Tim Pool clips.
 
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Negan4Coach

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Aug 31, 2017
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The video certainly requires that parties offer *some* explanation in a way that the Saki strike did not, but the fact is that nothing in the video is at all conclusive. The fact that the parties "agree" on what happened is completely orthogonal to what actually happened, whatever that was.

Is it possible that it was a truck bomb, as everyone says? Yes. I'm not an expert, and there are experts who say it's possible, or even likely.

Is it possible that it was a missile strike? Yes. I'm not an expert, and there are experts who say it's possible, or even likely.

Of the explanations I've seen, two argue in detail against the truck bomb theory and seem plausible to me.

First: An analysis thread from Zahed Amanullah, a former structural engineer who became an executive at a UK think tank, who strongly believes that an explosion on the road deck itself would simply have dispersed and caused localized damage rather than structural damage (note that he does not offer an alternate theory, merely evidence that the explosion happened from below rather than above, thus making the truck theory implausible):



Second: An analysis from Chuck Pfarrer, screenwriter / former Seal leader / trained underwater demolitions expert. He notes that the piece of evidence he finds most compelling for a missile strike was the hole punched in the deck of the fallen bridge segment:



These are not wackos. They are experts in their respective fields. They could, of course, be wrong.

It's also important to note that there are also confounding factors for *all* proposed explanations.

For the truck bomb theory to be true, Ukrainian forces would have had to assemble such a bomb on Russian territory, because the truck was driving from Russia to Crimea. That seems implausible -- but it also allows for all kinds of fun propaganda-friendly explanations. It allows Ukrainians to claim that either (a) they've got operatives in Russia capable of such work, or (b) that the Russians themselves were responsible, as Zelensky advisor Mykhailo Podolyak has already suggested. For obvious reasons, Ukrainians would love to "represent these hands", as poker players say. (It's also the explanation that the Russians like because it allows them to paint Ukrainians as truck-bombing "terrorists" rather than as a powerful military that is starting to outgun them.)

For the sapper theory to be true, Ukrainian forces would have had to deploy a team with an absolute shitton of explosives to place a shaped charge -- but having such an opportunity, it seems extremely likely that they would have put those charges on the railroad bridges directly rather than hitting one of the road bridges instead. That makes the sapper theory seem unlikely to me.

For the boat theory to be true, Ukrainian forces would have had to get such a vessel with those kinds of explosives into the Sea of Azov and into the vicinity of the bridge unnoticed, which, given the surveillance of that bridge by Russians, seems again possible but unlikely.

For the missile theory to be true, Ukrainian forces would have to have a missile that could be strong enough to hit and destroy the target from a very long distance. We already *know* this to be true, because it's what they did in Saki, and Ukrainians have already confirmed it. But it may not have been an ATACMS, because (a) the ATACMS is supposed to be more accurate, and thus would also have hit the rail bridge, and (b) the ATACMS, according to most analysts, is not big enough to create the alleged hole in the bridge.

Which points to the possibility of the homegrown Ukrainian Hrim-2 missile: a short-range ballistic missile. Fast enough to avoid countermeasures, with enough distance to get to the bridge, and enough weight and power to blow through it, but also would not have the accuracy of the ATACMS, and so might not have hit the intended target, the rail bridge, but instead hit the road bridge. Of course, we don't know if the Hrim-2 is actually operational, or how many they have, but if they do have a few, what better use for one than to hit the Kerch bridge, one of Putin's proudest achievements, on Putin's birthday?

Again, this is *all* speculation, and of the available evidence, there's nothing to make the truck theory any more viable from my perspective than the missile theory -- although there's lots to make the truck theory more attractive than the missile theory, for all sides.

OK, I'm done. :)

(Oh, one more thing: when Zelensky talked about the explosion, he noted that it was "sunny in Ukraine but cloudy in Crimea." According to the Financial Times, one of their sources said "check for cloudy weather — thunder, rain?" The word "hrim" in Ukrainian means "thunder".)


So, I wasn't a formally trained demolitions guy (the engineers on the team were those dudes), but I have set off a shit load of high explosives over my 27 year career. Even received demolitions bonus pay for a while. Plus worked for the Joint IED Defeat Organization for a while as a contractor. I know a thing or two about stuff that goes boom, and have some observations:

First- the truck theory. One thing people should realize is that a large amount of high explosives is very heavy. You can spot a truck crammed with them because they ride very low on their suspensions, as we learned first hand in Iraq. A real dead giveaway. While images of the blast look certainly like there was a detonation from above- as pointed out a bomb on top of a bridge disperses the blast. That is why we have special munitions for bridges, and in WWII they had to invent all kinds of crazy crap to do it, because aerial bombardment doesn't damage stoutly built bridges. And that is also why they train Special Forces guys to blow up bridges by hand.

Speaking of that- the idea that UKR sent Frogmen to plant explosives on that bridge is outrageous. This aint the movies- as inept as the Russians are, there is no way those divers come up there dragging shitloads of C-4 on rafts, climb all the way up and successfully rig it at night- it is just too far out there. We have been working with their SOF for years but they are not at that level, nor would I trust the SEALs to handle that either.

I've read the underwater drone theory- that to me sounds somewhat plausible. One of the ways we had of breaching large steel doors in Iraq was a "Water Impulse Charge", where we'd wrap det-cord (and not a lot of it) around a medical IV bag, tape it to a broomstick, and set it against the door. The explosives turn the water into a battering ram that absolutely shreds the locking mechanism and launches it like a cannonball into the house. I'm thinking a large shaped charge detonated under the water would bring down a bridge pretty well. I'm going to ask some of my demo buddies what they think about that.

But then there is the flaming train above it too. Maybe it was a gigantic Explosive Formed Projectile- the type of killer IED we had to deal with in Iraq (brought in by the IRGC). That uses something called the Misznay-Schardin Effect to take a concave copper disk and basically convert it into a molten slug of copper traveling at Mach 6. Those things used to penetrate the frontal armor of M1 tanks. If you made a big one and fired it from the sea, it would blast through the bridge and the train above.

Still- the most likely is a precision guided munition like an ATACMS with some kind of highly capable warhead (thermobaric, perhaps), unless DARPA provided UKR with some really high speed experimental explosives you can just put in a truck.
 

Navin R Slavin

Fifth line center
Jan 1, 2011
16,369
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Durrm NC
So, I wasn't a formally trained demolitions guy (the engineers on the team were those dudes), but I have set off a shit load of high explosives over my 27 year career. Even received demolitions bonus pay for a while. Plus worked for the Joint IED Defeat Organization for a while as a contractor. I know a thing or two about stuff that goes boom, and have some observations:

First- the truck theory. One thing people should realize is that a large amount of high explosives is very heavy. You can spot a truck crammed with them because they ride very low on their suspensions, as we learned first hand in Iraq. A real dead giveaway. While images of the blast look certainly like there was a detonation from above- as pointed out a bomb on top of a bridge disperses the blast. That is why we have special munitions for bridges, and in WWII they had to invent all kinds of crazy crap to do it, because aerial bombardment doesn't damage stoutly built bridges. And that is also why they train Special Forces guys to blow up bridges by hand.

Speaking of that- the idea that UKR sent Frogmen to plant explosives on that bridge is outrageous. This aint the movies- as inept as the Russians are, there is no way those divers come up there dragging shitloads of C-4 on rafts, climb all the way up and successfully rig it at night- it is just too far out there. We have been working with their SOF for years but they are not at that level, nor would I trust the SEALs to handle that either.

I've read the underwater drone theory- that to me sounds somewhat plausible. One of the ways we had of breaching large steel doors in Iraq was a "Water Impulse Charge", where we'd wrap det-cord (and not a lot of it) around a medical IV bag, tape it to a broomstick, and set it against the door. The explosives turn the water into a battering ram that absolutely shreds the locking mechanism and launches it like a cannonball into the house. I'm thinking a large shaped charge detonated under the water would bring down a bridge pretty well. I'm going to ask some of my demo buddies what they think about that.

But then there is the flaming train above it too. Maybe it was a gigantic Explosive Formed Projectile- the type of killer IED we had to deal with in Iraq (brought in by the IRGC). That uses something called the Misznay-Schardin Effect to take a concave copper disk and basically convert it into a molten slug of copper traveling at Mach 6. Those things used to penetrate the frontal armor of M1 tanks. If you made a big one and fired it from the sea, it would blast through the bridge and the train above.

Still- the most likely is a precision guided munition like an ATACMS with some kind of highly capable warhead (thermobaric, perhaps), unless DARPA provided UKR with some really high speed experimental explosives you can just put in a truck.

This all makes sense, and is awesome.

My big question is precision. The clearest military goal would have been to hit the rail bridges, preferably both of them, to disable rail traffic entirely; instead, they hit the road bridge, which also destroyed one of the rail bridges because of the fuel train parked on it that burned for hours, and damaged the other rail span. Using the parked fuel train was clearly part of the plan, but the miss meant it was only partly successful.

It seems to me like they closer they were, the more likely it would be that they would have hit their intended target, and the fact that they seem to have missed their primary target would indicate some sort of projectile with less than perfect targeting (and the Hrim-2 story seems to fit that better than ATACMS, but may be fiction.) Thoughts on any of that?
 
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Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
5,181
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A si
So, I wasn't a formally trained demolitions guy (the engineers on the team were those dudes), but I have set off a shit load of high explosives over my 27 year career. Even received demolitions bonus pay for a while. Plus worked for the Joint IED Defeat Organization for a while as a contractor. I know a thing or two about stuff that goes boom, and have some observations:

First- the truck theory. One thing people should realize is that a large amount of high explosives is very heavy. You can spot a truck crammed with them because they ride very low on their suspensions, as we learned first hand in Iraq. A real dead giveaway. While images of the blast look certainly like there was a detonation from above- as pointed out a bomb on top of a bridge disperses the blast. That is why we have special munitions for bridges, and in WWII they had to invent all kinds of crazy crap to do it, because aerial bombardment doesn't damage stoutly built bridges. And that is also why they train Special Forces guys to blow up bridges by hand.

Speaking of that- the idea that UKR sent Frogmen to plant explosives on that bridge is outrageous. This aint the movies- as inept as the Russians are, there is no way those divers come up there dragging shitloads of C-4 on rafts, climb all the way up and successfully rig it at night- it is just too far out there. We have been working with their SOF for years but they are not at that level, nor would I trust the SEALs to handle that either.

I've read the underwater drone theory- that to me sounds somewhat plausible. One of the ways we had of breaching large steel doors in Iraq was a "Water Impulse Charge", where we'd wrap det-cord (and not a lot of it) around a medical IV bag, tape it to a broomstick, and set it against the door. The explosives turn the water into a battering ram that absolutely shreds the locking mechanism and launches it like a cannonball into the house. I'm thinking a large shaped charge detonated under the water would bring down a bridge pretty well. I'm going to ask some of my demo buddies what they think about that.

But then there is the flaming train above it too. Maybe it was a gigantic Explosive Formed Projectile- the type of killer IED we had to deal with in Iraq (brought in by the IRGC). That uses something called the Misznay-Schardin Effect to take a concave copper disk and basically convert it into a molten slug of copper traveling at Mach 6. Those things used to penetrate the frontal armor of M1 tanks. If you made a big one and fired it from the sea, it would blast through the bridge and the train above.

Still- the most likely is a precision guided munition like an ATACMS with some kind of highly capable warhead (thermobaric, perhaps), unless DARPA provided UKR with some really high speed experimental explosives you can just put in a truck.
My money is on an underwater UAV / Drone something.

Everyone is like SOF SOF... No, not SOF. But I do think something like a remote mini suicide sub could do it. Or the russian guards were paid off on the russian side of the bridge and it was in the truck.

I fail to believe that the train was just "luck".
 

Negan4Coach

Fantastic and Stochastic
Aug 31, 2017
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This all makes sense, and is awesome.

My big question is precision. The clearest military goal would have been to hit the rail bridges, preferably both of them, to disable rail traffic entirely; instead, they hit the road bridge, which also destroyed one of the rail bridges because of the fuel train parked on it that burned for hours, and damaged the other rail span. Using the parked fuel train was clearly part of the plan, but the miss meant it was only partly successful.

It seems to me like they closer they were, the more likely it would be that they would have hit their intended target, and the fact that they seem to have missed their primary target would indicate some sort of projectile with less than perfect targeting (and the Hrim-2 story seems to fit that better than ATACMS, but may be fiction.) Thoughts on any of that?

I mean I certainly think that it was no accident that a fuel train just happened to be there at the time, and agree that the train tracks should be the primary target. But given the offset between the two, you'd think an undersea attack would have gone off under the rail bridge.

I remember when they used an SS-21 Scarab ballistic missile to blow up an ammunition ship, and thinking "damn that is real nice accuracy for a 1970s era Soviet SSM". So they clearly feel comfortable targeting specific stuff with those types of things. IDK, it was maybe a near miss from something exotic, or who knows maybe the truck was meant merely to ignite the train, and they figured the burning fuel would take care of it a'la 9/11, and they got lucky and the road bridge was built shitty and got stove in.

Its just unusual for a truck bomb to do that kind of damage to the surface. If it were that easy, then they wouldn't need to have dudes make all kinds of math calculations to place charges properly to demo one, they'd just truck bomb it all the time.
 
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Lempo

Recovering Future Considerations Truther
Feb 23, 2014
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... aaand the Finnish mainstream media makes an alarmist report about the new government guidelines that the MINISTRY OF SOCIAL AND HEALTH AFFAIRS RECOMMENDS POPULACE TO GET IODINE PILLS, instantly causing an apotechary run.
 

Unhinged Finn

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May 1, 2022
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... aaand the Finnish mainstream media makes an alarmist report about the new government guidelines that the MINISTRY OF SOCIAL AND HEALTH AFFAIRS RECOMMENDS POPULACE TO GET IODINE PILLS, instantly causing an apotechary run.
Even though free buckets are not involved.
 
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Negan4Coach

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... aaand the Finnish mainstream media makes an alarmist report about the new government guidelines that the MINISTRY OF SOCIAL AND HEALTH AFFAIRS RECOMMENDS POPULACE TO GET IODINE PILLS, instantly causing an apotechary run.

Really dumb, since all that stuff does is protect against the radioactive iodine fallout, which comprises only a small amount of what would get put out. Won’t help with all the Strontium-90.

But sure looks like the “No Blood For Oil” crowd of yesteryear sure is psyching themselves up for a nuclear war.
 

Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
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The thing that actually bothers me at this point, as I think that slope headed untermensch might acutally be willing to risk a strike to be victorious in UKR
 

Negan4Coach

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The thing that actually bothers me at this point, as I think that slope headed untermensch might acutally be willing to risk a strike to be victorious in UKR

I don't think he's the only one who feels that way, that's what I'm afraid of. And if he really is dying...what is to stop him, other than a random benevolent Russian general like we had to rely on those other two times to prevent Armageddon in '83 and '61.
 
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Unhinged Finn

Skunk is my spirit animal
May 1, 2022
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Really dumb, since all that stuff does is protect against the radioactive iodine fallout, which comprises only a small amount of what would get put out. Won’t help with all the Strontium-90.

But sure looks like the “No Blood For Oil” crowd of yesteryear sure is psyching themselves up for a nuclear war.
Hey, couple of years ago people were hoarding shitpaper. There is no point trying to use common sense when the headlines are SOMEONE ON NEWSPAPER CAUSES PANIC - PEOPLE RUN TO STORES. "We spent all of our money on this [insert current item], because we thought it would run out" -Karen & Steve Dimwit, 52.

In Finland a free plastic bucket will cause havoc. True story.
 
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raynman

Registered User
Jan 20, 2013
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Hey, couple of years ago people were hoarding shitpaper. There is no point trying to use common sense when the headlines are SOMEONE ON NEWSPAPER CAUSES PANIC - PEOPLE RUN TO STORES. "We spent all of our money on this [insert current item], because we thought it would run out" -Karen & Steve Dimwit, 52.

In Finland a free plastic bucket will cause havoc. True story.

Some years back, our local library gave you a free bucket if you loaned a bucketful of books.

The promotion was on April 1st, but I happened to be there and actually saw the buckets with my own eyes.
So Finns would probably like the guitarist Buckethead?
 

Navin R Slavin

Fifth line center
Jan 1, 2011
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I don't think he's the only one who feels that way, that's what I'm afraid of. And if he really is dying...what is to stop him, other than a random benevolent Russian general like we had to rely on those other two times to prevent Armageddon in '83 and '61.
Here's the thing: authoritarian expansionists won't stop until they are stopped. They will threaten everything, and they only understand force.

Our current allies who are former Warsaw Pact members understand this exceptionally clearly, because unlike Americans who talk endlessly about losing our precious freedoms, they have all experienced the actual loss of their precious freedoms, and are responding accordingly.

But in the end, the nuclear saber rattling is just a poker game that we've forgotten how to play. So long as countries have nuclear weapons, there is nuclear risk. The question now is, which risk is worse: rewarding nuclear brinkmanship by backing down and encouraging future nuclear proliferation and aggression, or continuing to move forward with measured deterrence?

It's not like Russia is going to send a missile to Washington right off the bat. They're not idiots. If there's a nuclear strike, it will first be a demonstration of intent, and NATO will almost surely respond with overwhelming conventional force in theater, and Russia's remaining "allies" will turn completely against them. Russia gains nothing by using nuclear force, and they only gain from the threat of nuclear force if their opponents signal a willingness to back down.

The Russian theory here has been "escalate to de-escalate". But there is no de-escalation option for Ukrainians. They will continue to fight to the last man, because the consequences of losing are intolerable to them.

At some point, Russia will lose this war. But they won't lose their country. Moscow will still be Moscow, St. Petersburg will still be St. Petersburg. So long as NATO makes it clear that actual Russian territory will not be breached, Russia's actual escalation possibilities are self-limiting, insane nationalist blowhards playing to the crowd notwithstanding.

Putin's challenge, or the challenge for his successors, is now to find the path to honorable defeat. That's not a military problem; it's a messaging problem.
 

MinJaBen

Canes Sharks Boy
Sponsor
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So long as NATO makes it clear that actual Russian territory will not be breached, Russia's actual escalation possibilities are self-limiting, insane nationalist blowhards playing to the crowd notwithstanding.
Easier said than done when what they feel is their territory is not what the rest of the world legally thinks is their territory.

We just need to use the same simple process we used in figuring out the rightful owners of Jerusalem and Kurdistan and Kashmir and Native American lands and...
 

HisIceness

This is Hurricanes Hockey
Sep 16, 2010
41,770
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Charlotte
Probably not gonna post here anymore. Not that anyone will miss anything or that this is some big thing. Going through a painful divorce of my own doing. I was an idiot just like I am on here sometimes. I appreciate all the likes and support over the years. Goodbye my dudes!

Noo!

I'm sorry to hear about your situation but maybe just take a week off from here or something? Don't go away forever.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
86,650
144,091
Bojangles Parking Lot
Probably not gonna post here anymore. Not that anyone will miss anything or that this is some big thing. Going through a painful divorce of my own doing. I was an idiot just like I am on here sometimes. I appreciate all the likes and support over the years. Goodbye my dudes!

Take your time and best of luck.
 

Bub

I like griping
Jul 5, 2006
2,337
6,595
Maine
Probably not gonna post here anymore. Not that anyone will miss anything or that this is some big thing. Going through a painful divorce of my own doing. I was an idiot just like I am on here sometimes. I appreciate all the likes and support over the years. Goodbye my dudes!

Sorry to hear that. Best of luck moving forward, and come back soon.
 

Negan4Coach

Fantastic and Stochastic
Aug 31, 2017
6,030
15,301
Raleigh, NC
Here's the thing: authoritarian expansionists won't stop until they are stopped. They will threaten everything, and they only understand force.

Our current allies who are former Warsaw Pact members understand this exceptionally clearly, because unlike Americans who talk endlessly about losing our precious freedoms, they have all experienced the actual loss of their precious freedoms, and are responding accordingly.

But in the end, the nuclear saber rattling is just a poker game that we've forgotten how to play. So long as countries have nuclear weapons, there is nuclear risk. The question now is, which risk is worse: rewarding nuclear brinkmanship by backing down and encouraging future nuclear proliferation and aggression, or continuing to move forward with measured deterrence?

It's not like Russia is going to send a missile to Washington right off the bat. They're not idiots. If there's a nuclear strike, it will first be a demonstration of intent, and NATO will almost surely respond with overwhelming conventional force in theater, and Russia's remaining "allies" will turn completely against them. Russia gains nothing by using nuclear force, and they only gain from the threat of nuclear force if their opponents signal a willingness to back down.

The Russian theory here has been "escalate to de-escalate". But there is no de-escalation option for Ukrainians. They will continue to fight to the last man, because the consequences of losing are intolerable to them.

At some point, Russia will lose this war. But they won't lose their country. Moscow will still be Moscow, St. Petersburg will still be St. Petersburg. So long as NATO makes it clear that actual Russian territory will not be breached, Russia's actual escalation possibilities are self-limiting, insane nationalist blowhards playing to the crowd notwithstanding.

Putin's challenge, or the challenge for his successors, is now to find the path to honorable defeat. That's not a military problem; it's a messaging problem.



I agree with some of that, but I think there is a great chance Russia stops being Russia if/when they lose this. All the former stans are already fighting each other, that Chechen puppet is making noises and it is conceivable the core Federation itself disintegrates into chaos and civil war at some point following the utter collapse of the Army.

People mention the Cuban Missile Crisis, but since I wasn't around for that I remember August of 1991 when the Soviet Union disintegrated and the generals arrested Gorbachev and surrounded the Duma with tanks, and it took future drunken reprobate Yeltsin giving speeches on top of a tank to stop what could have very easily spiraled into a nuclear exchange with NATO.

No- they certainly wouldn't nuke DC right off the bat. That would come about 1-3 hours later after a chain of miscalculations led to a regional exchange followed by the main ones.

I'm not down with playing nuclear brinksmanship for other people's freedoms. This is a Slavic beef, and it's been going on for centuries. UKR has always been a vassal state of Russia, this independence thing is realively new- and regardless- their struggle is not our struggle. And while we shouldn't provoke more aggression from Russia by stopping anything we are doing now when he threatens nukes- what we should be doing is using a whole of government effort to try to bring this to a swift, negotiated end before nukes enter the equation. Full stop. We have the means and influence over regional players to make that happen, and should.

It really blows my mind how blasé some of you folks are about nuclear brinksmanship. Especially considering how militant y'all were about Covid protocols.
 
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Canes

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
25,204
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Noo!

I'm sorry to hear about your situation but maybe just take a week off from here or something? Don't go away forever.
Take your time and best of luck.
Sorry to hear that. Best of luck moving forward, and come back soon.
Thanks guys. But I f***ed up. Maybe a bit dramatic. But I f***ed up hard, it hurts a lot. I don't know if anyone here has been in a similar situation but I feel for you regardless of the side you were on. I will be fine but I am probably checking out for a bit. My beautiful daughter, f*** I want to cry... See you guys soon, I'll be back who am I kidding.
 
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