GDT: Hurricanes at Lightning | Dec. 21, 7:00 PM | Fox Sports

[Blueline Bomber]

It's getting a little long to be a hot streak, though longer ones aren't unheard of.

I guess it depends on what level we want to take expectations. Peters has already surpassed the "Hey, that's damn good for a 3rd stringer" phase and is probably past the "Damn good for a backup" phase as well. As stated last night, how much longer does he need to keep it up before he becomes "legit" and how much longer after that do we feel comfortable making it HIS team and all that comes with it?

The first question he can handle on his own. If he keeps this play up through an especially important January (our easiest segment of the schedule by far), he'd be well into the "legit" category. The second question depends on his play and Ward's play. If both keep going the paths they're going, it'll be Peters team with no safety nets behind him. If Ward bounces back, we'll have a 1A/1B type situation, which would be ideal.

 

[Identity404]

It's getting a little long to be a hot streak, though longer ones aren't unheard of.

I guess it depends on what level we want to take expectations. Peters has already surpassed the "Hey, that's damn good for a 3rd stringer" phase and is probably past the "Damn good for a backup" phase as well. As stated last night, how much longer does he need to keep it up before he becomes "legit" and how much longer after that do we feel comfortable making it HIS team and all that comes with it?

The first question he can handle on his own. If he keeps this play up through an especially important January (our easiest segment of the schedule by far), he'd be well into the "legit" category. The second question depends on his play and Ward's play. If both keep going the paths they're going, it'll be Peters team with no safety nets behind him. If Ward bounces back, we'll have a 1A/1B type situation, which would be ideal.

Not trying to take away from Peters, but I don't think it's too long to be considered a hot streak. Goalies are notorious for getting into the zone and playing like that for extended periods. Look at Quick, Anderson and Miller for recent examples. I think the question is what is Peters baseline level of play when he isn't in the zone? In the past it wasn't very good. Has he truly evolved as a player? I hope so, but i'm just hesitant to believe it based on the past.

I don't think a 1A/1B situation is ideal for either players. History has shown that they are both the types of goaltenders that need to see the net a lot to be at the top of their game. Though 1A/1B may be the best alternative because I think both Ward and Peters are terrible as backups.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Before this season started, there was hope that the acquisition of Anton made it so that Ward/Khudobin would turn into a 1A/1B type situation. Having one challenging the other.

Now the best result might be Peters/Ward as the 1A/1B. Weird season.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

I definitely see a difference in style when having Peters in net vs. Ward, but I've also seen the longer Peters continues to shine, the players are more willing to abandon the "collapse five" mentality. It really does remind me of how Boston played in front of Tim Thomas. I recall one game in particular against the Canes; I hadn't seen much of Thomas, and I was stunned at the enormity of the rebounds he kicked out, consistently. But, the defensemen were obviously cognizant of this, and their first reaction when an opposing player was winding up for a shot was to face Thomas and make sure they got to the rebound first. It's the same thing I've seen with the Canes and Peters. Whether they think Ward won't give up similar rebounds, I don't know. But it just looks different.

And re. the OT goal last night...an opposing player being given all the time in the world on a 2-on-1 and unleashes a slap shot that finds its way inside the post. That's not soft. That's not one "he should have had." The ref should have called the board. And where the flying **** was the rest of the team besides the lone d-man back?

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

That's where we'll disagree. The notion started based off the team clearly changing its game after they lost the first 5 games Peters started after Ward went down. As Identity stated above, this was confirmed by Muller and the players.

It was then believed that this change in the game plan was limiting the offense (to the point where some on the board were claiming Muller was telling players not to score...) because the team couldn't score for **** and/or generate shots in the games after.

What's ignored is that those same stretch of games came at the same time as Skinner's injury, who obviously has a much bigger effect on generating offense than whoever's in net.

It's a matter of assuming correlation (Peters starting, the gameplan changing, and the team not scoring) proves causation while ignoring the more obvious factor (The only guy able to generate offense by himself being injured).

As for Peters himself, who's denying that he's come into his own? IIRC, wasn't a debate during last night's GDT about how much longer he needs to keep this kind of play up before he's considered "legit"? If it was believed to be the system, such a debate wouldn't come up, no?

Telling the team to be defensibly responsible isn't changing the game style, it was telling them to play the game as it should be played but weren't; don't leave your goalie twisting in the wind, and clean up in front of the net. Anyone suggesting that this in turn meant telling the team not to score is clearly out of their minds….you can only win games by scoring, you don't sacrifice it. People took that crumb of telling all players to be defensively responsible, i.e. to do their job (because too many were not no matter who was in net) and turned it into this half-baked myth we have today.

The supposed scorers on this team haven't been able to score all season, and here we are almost halfway through it. As you say, our only legit scorer is Skinner, everyone else is pretty much garbage…Oh, and when I say scoring I mean scoring goals, not collecting assist points. You can't have one without the other….

Captain Please Understand I'm A Slow Starter is right at a LaRose goal-scoring pace; 9 goals, 6 at ES in 36 games. He's also a -10. He's also taken more stupid, offensive zone penalties this season than Char did in his entire career, leading the team with 38 PIM so far. His bro is right with him in scoring..36 games, 8 goals, 7 at ES. He's actually a +1 however and mathematically more than 3 times smarter with only 12 PIM. Then there's Semin; 24 games, 3 goals, 1 (yes ONE) at ES and a -7. He's on pace for 10 goals this season. Ten. One zero. 10. Ruutu, 31 games, 4 goals, 3 ES. How do you say "overpriced suck-age" in Finnish?

Those kind of lameaass numbers already existed before Peters stepped-in. These are the same players who have been at the core of our inept PP for a lot longer than the Peters era of the last couple months, and it would be pretty difficult to say Peters is at the heart of the PP problem. Yet there they are at 27th in the League just as they are 27th in Goals For. Take away their League-leading 7 SH goals and the only team scoring fewer ES and PP goals is Buffalo.

Now IF those myth-makers could point at Peters numbers and say he's faced an inordinately low number of shots vs. Ward, or low-quality shots, etc etc thereby supporting the notion that they changed their game, OR if Peters was anywhere near the bottom of the League in Save %, they might have a bit of a point. But they can't…Peters has faced more shots and more shots per minutes-on-ice than Ward, and has been hung out to dry in terms of SOG in more games and to a higher degree yet is 6th in the League Save %. So much for the difference in what happens on the ice vs some tidbit of spoken interview about being defensively responsible. The reality is, they haven't been.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I definitely see a difference in style when having Peters in net vs. Ward, but I've also seen the longer Peters continues to shine, the players are more willing to abandon the "collapse five" mentality.

I agree, and the stats even kind of show that.

Peter's first 10 starts while Ward was out of the line-up
Record: 4-5-1
Goals For /Game: 1.6
Goals Against/Game: 2.4
Save %: .922

Peter's 7 starts since Ward came back:
Record: 3-2-2
Goals For / Game: 2.6
Goals Against/Game: 2.0
Save %: .941

Cam's numbers in his 9 starts since he's been back:
Record: 3-4-2
Goals For / Game: 2.9
Goals Against / Game: 3.2
Save %: .892

EDIT: but as I stated before, that first stretch of games for Peters was mainly without Skinner also, and we know how this team struggles to generate offense without him.

 

[bleedgreen]

After all the hard work skinner has done this season, it's tough to watch him throw his stick in the air and lie on the ice staring at the ref while TB turns a two on one that he should be up defending. 5 seconds of petulant skinner and it's in our net. Hopefully he got an earful about that, and will be right back on track next game.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

I agree, and the stats even kind of show that.

Peter's first 10 starts while Ward was out of the line-up
Record: 4-5-1
Goals For /Game: 1.6
Goals Against/Game: 2.4
Save %: .922

Peter's 7 starts since Ward came back:
Record: 3-2-2
Goals For / Game: 2.6
Goals Against/Game: 2.0
Save %: .941

Cam's numbers in his 9 starts since he's been back:
Record: 3-4-2
Goals For / Game: 2.9
Goals Against / Game: 3.2
Save %: .892

EDIT: but as I stated before, that first stretch of games for Peters was mainly without Skinner also, and we know how this team struggles to generate offense without him.

I notice that in all your stats you conveniently exclude SOG against, which is the most obvious indicator as to whether the D is collapsing in front of Peters, let alone to the point it actually hamstrings offense vs how they play in front of Ward. The primary purpose of collapsing is to clog the shooting lanes and block shots….to prevent SOGs. And yet…


Peters 7 starts since Ward came back: 239 SOG 34.1 per game
Peters 10 starts prior to that: 308 SOG 30.8 per game

Ward's 10 starts since he's been back: 268 SOG 26.8 per game.

34.1 and 30.8 are both > 26.8

Hmm. So apparently, this supposed big style of play change to collapsing D in front of Peters that some of you are "clearly" and "obviously" seeing results in…….more SOGs vs Peters. And just to be clear in my own head, this is (clearly) in addition to them not being able to clear the zone because of it, or if they do, not gain the opponent's zone because of it (obviously) or, if they do, not being able to cycle the puck or maintain pressure because of it (seemingly), and even if they do whiffing because of it, or even if they don't, missing the net entirely because of it, or even if they don't they hit the goalie in the logo instead of the net because of it, and if they do that's why they aren't there with a crease presence to collect some garbage because of it, thus leading to fewer Goals For because they virtually can't do anything because of it. Wow, that's a big cascading mountain of things the team is incapable of doing just because they try not to let opponents waltz in and own the area in front of Peter's crease with impunity. But as we see, for some odd reason this same Big Change policy allows more SOG vs Peters than Ward faces.

But hey, keep ignoring SOG allowed, but keep including "Goals For" as a stat to suggest D-style in one's own zone has changed dramatically because that offensive number that happens 190' away doesn't have about a million variables linking it to one's own goalie or anything.

 

[Clark Gillies]

After all the hard work skinner has done this season, it's tough to watch him throw his stick in the air and lie on the ice staring at the ref while TB turns a two on one that he should be up defending. 5 seconds of petulant skinner and it's in our net. Hopefully he got an earful about that, and will be right back on track next game.

I really think you completely missed the mark on the Skinner play.

It appears he was really shaken up on that play, to the point of I'm thinking Oh crap another concussion. There was no way he or pretty much anyone else was getting up and making any defense on that play.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

After all the hard work skinner has done this season, it's tough to watch him throw his stick in the air and lie on the ice staring at the ref while TB turns a two on one that he should be up defending. 5 seconds of petulant skinner and it's in our net. Hopefully he got an earful about that, and will be right back on track next game.

he got railed from near-behind into the boards at the end of a shift and is damn lucky he didn't come away with another major injury. i dont know how you can really hold that against him

 

[bleedgreen]

he dove like a fish out of water.

just my opinion.

i watched tampa's feed, and they had an angle where he clearly looks up over at the ref while he's laying there - just like he does every other time he's taken a fall over the last few years.

not to mention the skating away to the bench instead of joining the play, at least make an effort.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

There was no "fall", in my opinion it was a massive hit, and probably should have been called boarding. In regulation it probably would have, which drives me nuts but that's a different story for a different day.

Seems like you (bleedgreen) are looking for something that's not there.

 

[Novacane]

That hit was boarding any time, any day. Except when St. Pierre is one of the officials who of course followed you from one city to the next.

 

[bleedgreen]

I'm not looking for anything. Skinner looks like he played it up like he frequently does. The refs didn't buy the hit, and they didn't buy him being hurt, which played itself out as he got up and skated to the bench. If he was hurt he should've stayed down, and if he wasn't he shouldn't lay there waiting for them to blow it down.

 

[Clark Gillies]

I'm not looking for anything. Skinner looks like he played it up like he frequently does. The refs didn't buy the hit, and they didn't buy him being hurt, which played itself out as he got up and skated to the bench. If he was hurt he should've stayed down, and if he wasn't he shouldn't lay there waiting for them to blow it down.

We get the Skinner hate -- Leave it alone already, your the only one who is going to try and make something out of what is not there.

 

[bleedgreen]

What?

I love skinner. Why do I hate him? I'm rooting for him as much if not more than anyone. I'm the one who argued against trading him all summer. I want him to grow up and not act like a baby. I just watched it on both feeds again. There is no "monster" hit. There's a right arm shove from gudas, skinner throwing his stick (not knocked out of his hands), there's skinner laying on the ice looking at the ref as the play goes by then skating over to the bench. He's not even hurt enough to get off the ice, he's asking the bench for another stick. You guys need to watch that one again, I'm surprised I'm the only one saying this.

When did I become the "skinner hate" guy? Who are you?

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Having a different opinion about a play/player =/= hate

Having different opinion about a play/player, refusing to look at opposing viewpoints, and refusing to let go of that opinion through multiple topics = hate

 

[bleedgreen]

You guys don't think skinner dives? Did I miss something?

I haven't called him out once this season for it until this game. That's why I started with complimenting him in the first post.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

He used to. I haven't seen him do it recently. And I'm having trouble understanding why he would do it there of all times.

I believe it was just a matter if Skinner being a small player getting knocked over by a large player.

Not everything is a penalty nor is everything an attempt to draw a penalty.

 

[bleedgreen]

He used to. I haven't seen him do it recently. And I'm having trouble understanding why he would do it there of all times.

I believe it was just a matter if Skinner being a small player getting knocked over by a large player.

Not everything is a penalty nor is everything an attempt to draw a penalty.

I don't understand why he would do it there either, thus the frustration. All I said is he's worked hard to get past all this, so I hope he gets back to work next game. That's my original post.

If he's a small player getting knocked over by a larger player then the stick flying was unneeded.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I notice that in all your stats you conveniently exclude SOG against, which is the most obvious indicator as to whether the D is collapsing in front of Peters, let alone to the point it actually hamstrings offense vs how they play in front of Ward. The primary purpose of collapsing is to clog the shooting lanes and block shots….to prevent SOGs. And yet…

Fair point, but playing a conservative defense also can be to limit QUALITY shots and ensure rebounds (which Peter's has a history of giving up) are cleared away quickly. When you are playing that style, you many times will give up more shots, not less. Also, you know as well as I that if the skaters are playing well and have strong puck possession, it limits SOG so that metric alone isn't indicative of the style of play (as evidence by last night). But for argument sake, let's stick with your line of thinking and focus on blocks:

Peters first stretch of 10 games:
Canes blocked an average of 14.6 shots / game.
- High of 23 blocked shots in 1 game (18 in another, 17 in another)
- An outlier of only 6 shots blocked against Anahiem. Without that game, the average was 15.6.

Peter's last 7 games since Ward has been back?
Canes blocked an average of 12.4 shots / game with a high game of only 14.

So, the Canes were blocking more shots early on in Peter's string of games than they are now.

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make to know if I even agree or disagree with it, but here's my position:

1) I do feel the Canes played a much more conservative game early on in Peter's string of games, but I don't see an issue with that. That's just sound defensive hockey.

2) I don't think Peter's success is just because of how the team is playing in front of him. He is playing with confidence and making a lot of quality stops.

3) I don't for a minute buy that Ward's poor showings are because the team is playing less conservative and hanging him out to dry. Since he's been back, no statistic validates that:

SOG: Nope
Blocks: Nope (Canes are averaging almost 15/Game with Ward in net, with 3 games over 20).
Goals For: Nope, only slightly higher than for Peters.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

When Ward is in, and on his game, he is excellent at either freezing the puck or corralling the rebound to the side or to the slot if there are no enemy jersey's present.

As a result, the wingers (who, in our system are charged with defending the points) typically stay near their man, both for defense and to expedite the break out. They are confident that the center or one of the defensemen will get the puck because Ward has such excellent rebound control (or did).

Peters doesn't. He's playing well, but the puck will go anywhere when it rebounds off of him. Sens1Canes2 put it well: Peters doesn't save the shot; he gets hit by the puck. Where it goes next, no one knows.

When Peters is in net, the wingers don't play strictly the point; they crash the slot as soon as Peters is in trouble, because that rebound is probably going to a place it shouldn't if the other team gets a shot off. Not only does that stymie the breakout, it also allows defensemen to get better passing lanes and point shots.

You can see this in Hedman's goal last night: Semin was in the slot, waiting for the rebound while his man crept up. He was waiting for Filpulla's shot, which got inadvertently blocked, and had turned to face Peters. Hedman saw this, and sprung forward, and...goal.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

I will say that Peters has been a lot better lately with rebound control...but of course this is comparing it to himself early in the season when he was the human rebound machine.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

bleed I didn't get the impression that you hate Skinner or that you were shutting out other viewpoints.

Seems like an ad hom to me.

 

[Ole Gil]

Just look at the league leaders in GAA to get an idea of how flukey short term results can be in net.

Martin Jones is probably the best. Okay numbers in the AHL, now he's 8-0 in the NHL with 3 shutouts. I don't dare to go to the Kings forum to see how many trade Quick threads posts there are.