How will Erik Karlsson be remembered?

[K Fleur]

Mike Green having a better offensive peak than Karlsson is the kinda take you get when you evaluate players only by reading the back of hockey cards.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Always annoyed me that he didn't receive more attention for the Hart during his Ottawa years. Ottawa was EK and EK was Ottawa - they went where he went. One of the few, perhaps only, defensemen post-lockout that I could've seen be a finalist there.

 

[quietbruinfan]

That answer depends on the person's age. For me, I only caught the latter part of his prime. I'm sure he was likely a better skater in Montreal than during his final Norris years in Chicago.

He was an outstanding skater. He was strong, fast, agile and good on his edges.

 

[NyQuil]

Part of the allure of Karlsson is the swashbuckling style that got people out of their seats.

It’s similar to how you can’t just evaluate Pavel Bure on his numbers alone.

He was a gambler, but prior to his injuries, he could get away with it much like Alphonso Davies does, getting back even when cheating offensively.

At his peak form, it was like having two players on the ice, because he could join the rush and still get back if the puck was turned over.

As his agility suffered, his defensive lapses went from an occasional lack of interest in his defensive responsibilities to systematically being beaten by faster players.

As a result, the moments of sublime play become rarer as he’s adjusted to his new physical reality.

For Sens fans, it was a treat to watch every game because you never knew what he might pull off.

 

[Moridin]

Like Lindros.

A flashy hall of famer that you wish would have been luckier with injuries.

 

[The Macho Man]

Part of the allure of Karlsson is the swashbuckling style that got people out of their seats.

It’s similar to how you can’t just evaluate Pavel Bure on his numbers alone.

People say this.

My response: "Why not?" At the end of the day pretty goals count just as much as ugly goals.

Someone said a Rich Man's Housley. While that may be a *bit* unfair, it's not off by much. I think an odd thing around here that's happened is the Sens have a very vocal fanbase on HF, which makes every discussion kind of devolve when they're critical of Karlsson's play without the puck.

BTW - this is the issue I have with all of the pure puck-movers, including the Makar's and Fox's of the world. Even the best offensive players nowadays spend at least 40-45% of the time without the puck in the defensive zone. Acting like that edge of 3-5% over other players make up for their shortcomings in "traditional defense" for lack of better word really bothers me.

 

[kaiser matias]

One thing missing when looking strictly at a PPG comparison, is that his 2015-16 points was 5th overall in the league, which was something like the highest a defenceman had placed since Coffey or something. He regularly was up there in terms of overall scoring, so while league-wide scoring (and defenceman in particular) has grown the past few years, it's still quite the achievement (Josi is of course making a run for that this year).

 

[NyQuil]

People say this.

My response: "Why not?" At the end of the day pretty goals count just as much as ugly goals.

Someone said a Rich Man's Housley. While that may be a *bit* unfair, it's not off by much. I think an odd thing around here that's happened is the Sens have a very vocal fanbase on HF, which makes every discussion kind of devolve when they're critical of Karlsson's play without the puck.

BTW - this is the issue I have with all of the pure puck-movers, including the Makar's and Fox's of the world. Even the best offensive players nowadays spend at least 40-45% of the time without the puck in the defensive zone. Acting like that edge of 3-5% over other players make up for their shortcomings in "traditional defense" for lack of better word really bothers me.

Well, sports are supposed to be about entertainment.

You are spending your limited time (it's the only resource in the world that is essentially limited) on it, so hopefully you are getting value from it.

Results can be entertaining, but the play on the ice can also be entertaining.

I've seen Ottawa play a trap system and be very successful with it during the Jacques Martin years (including a President's Trophy berth and a deep ECF run), but I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed the actual play as much as the post-lockout 2006-2007 season.

In any event, a lot of Karlsson's "traditional defence" gets forgotten about because of his play with the puck. Back in 2017, he was close to the league lead in blocked shots, which is a "traditional skill."

).

And then someone says, "Well, that just means he doesn't have the puck." The guy can't win.

Calling Karlsson a "Phil Housley" is decidedly unfair by a sizeable degree. You're taking a player who was known for his complete lack of defensive acumen during an era where offense was king and defensive responsibilities were optional.

Basically it's the kind of thing people say to try and get a rise out of Senators fans.

As someone who watched virtually every game he ever played for the Senators, he was extremely effective defensively when his skating was up for it because he could keep the puck out of the zone, both in terms of zone exits and in terms of maintaining offensive zone time.

How he does it, well, it's fairly well-articulated statistically for you by Travis Yost during his first round match-up against the Perfection Line and the Bruins in 2017.

Karlsson is dominating the Bruins - TSN.ca

The ice is tilting toward Ottawa every time the Senators captain comes over the boards in the first-round series, Travis Yost writes.

www.tsn.ca

At this point, hockey people both in management and in the media were seriously calling him the best skater in the league because of his tremendous on-ice impact for a mediocre team.

Attempts to undercut his legacy because of his unremarkable stint in San Jose doesn't change the past.

 

[The Macho Man]

Well, sports are supposed to be about entertainment.

You are spending your limited time (it's the only resource in the world that is essentially limited) on it, so hopefully you are getting value from it.

Results can be entertaining, but the play on the ice can also be entertaining.

I've seen Ottawa play a trap system and be very successful with it during the Jacques Martin years (including a President's Trophy berth and a deep ECF run), but I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed the actual play as much as the post-lockout 2006-2007 season.

In any event, a lot of Karlsson's "traditional defence" gets forgotten about because of his play with the puck. Back in 2017, he was close to the league lead in blocked shots, which is a "traditional skill."

).

And then someone says, "Well, that just means he doesn't have the puck." The guy can't win.

Calling Karlsson a "Phil Housley" is decidedly unfair by a sizeable degree. You're taking a player who was known for his complete lack of defensive acumen during an era where offense was king and defensive responsibilities were optional.

Basically it's the kind of thing people say to try and get a rise out of Senators fans.

As someone who watched virtually every game he ever played for the Senators, he was extremely effective defensively when his skating was up for it because he could keep the puck out of the zone, both in terms of zone exits and in terms of maintaining offensive zone time.

How he does it, well, it's fairly well-articulated statistically for you by Travis Yost during his first round match-up against the Perfection Line and the Bruins in 2017.

Karlsson is dominating the Bruins - TSN.ca

The ice is tilting toward Ottawa every time the Senators captain comes over the boards in the first-round series, Travis Yost writes.

www.tsn.ca

At this point, hockey people both in management and in the media were seriously calling him the best skater in the league because of his tremendous on-ice impact for a mediocre team.

Attempts to undercut his legacy because of his unremarkable stint in San Jose doesn't change the past.

Someone said a Rich Man's Housley. While that may be a *bit* unfair, it's not off by much. I think an odd thing around here that's happened is the Sens have a very vocal fanbase on HF, which makes every discussion kind of devolve when they're critical of Karlsson's play without the puck.

It's like I'm psychic or something.

 

[NyQuil]

It's like I'm psychic or something.

How has the discussion devolved when I'm just presenting a counter argument?

That would be like me saying "Tampa Bay is one of the worst teams ever to win back to back Cups, thanks to COVID-19, but Tampa fans are always critical when this perspective is raised."

And then, when someone takes issue with it:

"See, I was right!"

It's not being psychic when you are creating the conditions for a dispute yourself. But thank you for not responding to anything of substance in my post.

 

[The Macho Man]

How has the discussion devolved when I'm just presenting a counter argument?

That would be like me saying "Tampa Bay is one of the worst back-to-back teams ever to win the Cup, but Tampa fans are always critical when this perspective is raised."

And then, when someone takes issue with it:

"See, I was right!"

It's not being psychic when you are creating the conditions for a dispute.

You know what? Fair - I was being snarky and I shouldn't have been, especially since your points weren't the typical.

I'll respond substantively. Once again - I don't care how you score. Yeah it's an entertainment business, but that shows itself in jersey sales and contracts. In player evaluation, I couldn't give two shits and I think it's a distraction.

I know about EK's few seasons as a "shot blocker". It's not a stat I put much weight on as there's a whole bunch of funkiness on how it's counted. Also it's at most a partial stat. EK's issue is always going to be how he deals with size and players down low. That's a weakness of his that's always going to be there. To the extent EK had a positive skill in the defensive zone, he had a great stick. But I think he was a) prone to "whoospies" - where an aggressive decision leads to an A+ chance against*, and b) prone to being outmuscled and positionally exploited. I don't think either of those takes is "hot".

Re: 2017 run. He gets a ton of credit for that. And fair. But one 19 game sample where they trapped their way to a CF (something that Boucher had done before) doesn't really wipe away his resume before and after. And for all the "Matt Cooke ruined Erik Karlsson" talk, that happened 4 years before that run? I never really got the "Cooke ruined Karlsson" comments when he still had multiple seasons like that afterward. EK kind of followed the normal aging curve for offensive defensemen.

EK was a flawed player, and interestingly I think his team situation boosts his profile. His defensive lapses get washed away with "well someone had to score". But I also think that gaudy point totals are distracting generally, after seeing the kind of fluffing Josi, Fox, and Makar get.

IDK - early 2010s were kind of a shallow time for Dmen, and I do think EK was probably the best of that generation, but ultimately quite flawed.

*"Whoopsies" are not adequately captured in the advanced stats era. I use the term because for awhile Andrej Sustr, Tampa Dman had "decent" analytics but was on the ice for a goal against a game. But there is a class of mistake that - barring a god-like save or massive whiff on a shot - are basically guaranteed goals. Think 2 on 0s as an extreme example of one.

 

[K Fleur]

Karlsson was the man on a team that was one 2OT goal away from the finals

Housely was never anything close to that.

 

[MS]

People will probably disagree with this but to me he's the 3rd best offensive defender in NHL history after only Orr and Coffey in terms of peak level.

The guy scored 82 points on a team where the leading forward had 61 points. If he would have had the opportunity to play in Pittsburgh or Washington in his best years he probably would have pushed 110+ points.

(And I'm not an Ottawa fan, for the record)

 

[sansabri]

best offensive d of his generation

 

[wetcoast]

Always annoyed me that he didn't receive more attention for the Hart during his Ottawa years. Ottawa was EK and EK was Ottawa - they went where he went. One of the few, perhaps only, defensemen post-lockout that I could've seen be a finalist there.

I think voters recognized that his lofty stats were because of this relationship and most of his backers said just watch till he goes to a better team then we saw him play in Burns shadow for the most part.

Awesome skater and offensive guy but also a guy some pumped to ridiculous lengths and upon a closer look maybe not quite as good as the counting stats suggested.

Ironically even though his underlying numbers later in his career suggested good defense he was often a highlight for bad defensive plays and was a high event player goals were scored when he was on the ice....by both teams.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He's Brian Leetch with an even shorter prime.

The list of post-WW2 defenseman who finished top 10 in NHL scoring twice is probably in single digits. Phil Housley couldn't do it once. And Housley played with more talented forwards than Karlsson.

The number of defensemen who ever finished top 5 in NHL scoring? Very low.

Future stats junkies will notice these things. I used to have a thread on here on the number of top 5 and 10 finishes by defensemen that was ruined by the server migration, but I do remember them being very rare feats.

Karlsson's 2015-16 was ridiculous:

NHL top 5 scorers:

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1.[/TD]
[TD]Patrick Kane • CHI[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2.[/TD]
[TD]Jamie Benn • DAL[/TD]
[TD]89[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3.[/TD]
[TD]Sidney Crosby • PIT[/TD]
[TD]85[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4.[/TD]
[TD]Erik Karlsson • OTT[/TD]
[TD]82[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Joe Thornton • SJS[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Ottawa top 5 scorers:


�
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH][/TH]

[TH]Scoring[/TH]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH]Goals[/TH]
[TH]Assists[/TH]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH]Ice Time[/TH]
[TH]Point Shares[/TH]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rk[/TH]
[TH]Player[/TH]
[TH]Age[/TH]
[TH]Pos[/TH]
[TH]GP[/TH]
[TH]G[/TH]
[TH]A[/TH]
[TH]PTS[/TH]
[TH]+/-[/TH]
[TH]PIM[/TH]
[TH]EV[/TH]
[TH]PP[/TH]
[TH]SH[/TH]
[TH]GW[/TH]
[TH]EV[/TH]
[TH]PP[/TH]
[TH]SH[/TH]
[TH]S[/TH]
[TH]S%[/TH]
[TH]TOI[/TH]
[TH]ATOI[/TH]
[TH]OPS[/TH]
[TH]DPS[/TH]
[TH]PS[/TH]
[TH]BLK[/TH]
[TH]HIT[/TH]
[TH]FOW[/TH]
[TH]FOL[/TH]
[TH]FO%[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]1[/TH]
[TD]Erik Karlsson[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]82[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]66[/TD]
[TD]82[/TD]
[TD]-2[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]41[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]248[/TD]
[TD]6.5[/TD]
[TD]2375[/TD]
[TD]28:58[/TD]
[TD]8.4[/TD]
[TD]3.2[/TD]
[TD]11.7[/TD]
[TD]175[/TD]
[TD]84[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]2[/TH]
[TD]Mark Stone[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]RW[/TD]
[TD]75[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]61[/TD]
[TD]-4[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]151[/TD]
[TD]15.2[/TD]
[TD]1508[/TD]
[TD]20:06[/TD]
[TD]5.6[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]6.7[/TD]
[TD]54[/TD]
[TD]55[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]42.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]3[/TH]
[TD]Mike Hoffman[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]
[TD]78[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]59[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]242[/TD]
[TD]12.0[/TD]
[TD]1368[/TD]
[TD]17:33[/TD]
[TD]6.4[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD]7.6[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]44.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]4[/TH]
[TD]Bobby Ryan[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]RW[/TD]
[TD]81[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]34[/TD]
[TD]56[/TD]
[TD]-9[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]183[/TD]
[TD]12.0[/TD]
[TD]1391[/TD]
[TD]17:10[/TD]
[TD]5.2[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD]6.0[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]27.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]5[/TH]
[TD]Mika Zibanejad[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]81[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]-2[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]184[/TD]
[TD]11.4[/TD]
[TD]1439[/TD]
[TD]17:46[/TD]
[TD]4.4[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]5.5[/TD]
[TD]43[/TD]
[TD]111[/TD]
[TD]659[/TD]
[TD]647[/TD]
[TD]50.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Eek, what a terrible copy and paste from hockey reference. Maybe I'll bother learning how to use yet another software format just to post on a hockey forum. Can we look forward to the site changing the software ever few years now?

But anyway, anyone looking at these stats can see that Karlsson had the best offensive season by a defenseman since Paul Coffey

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Always annoyed me that he didn't receive more attention for the Hart during his Ottawa years. Ottawa was EK and EK was Ottawa - they went where he went. One of the few, perhaps only, defensemen post-lockout that I could've seen be a finalist there.

He should have competed with Kane for the 2015-16 Hart, but alas Hart voters hate to vote for defensemen.

 

[Voight]

Always annoyed me that he didn't receive more attention for the Hart during his Ottawa years. Ottawa was EK and EK was Ottawa - they went where he went. One of the few, perhaps only, defensemen post-lockout that I could've seen be a finalist there.

One dimensional play.

 

[The Macho Man]

Eh but Niedermayer's trophy case only exists late in his career. It's a weird thing - late peaks (often) end up elevating the entire career in hindsight, while being a middling player late in the career has the effect of dropping the consideration.

For instance - I'd probably put money that if you had a Niedermayer v. Chelios poll on the polls section, Nieds would win. Because our memories of Chelios are a 48 year old who could barely skate and was well past his best by date.

Edit: Was curious so I actually posted that poll.

For those interested - poll results were about 68-32 in favor of Chelios. So closer than it should be, but it looks like I was wrong.

 

[Michael Farkas]

One dimensional play.

Pretending that was true at his absolute peak and that he didn't play defense...is that particularly noteworthy on the Hart Trophy list:
McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, Hall, Kane, mid-career Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Perry, Sedin...

Looking at that list, there's a really easy case that he's the most multi-dimensional in this group or is right there with Crosby. But during the regular season at that time, Crosby wasn't exactly noteworthy defensively either...

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Pretending that was true at his absolute peak and that he didn't play defense...is that particularly noteworthy on the Hart Trophy list:
McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, Hall, Kane, mid-career Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Perry, Sedin...

Looking at that list, there's a really easy case that he's the most multi-dimensional in this group or is right there with Crosby. But during the regular season at that time, Crosby wasn't exactly noteworthy defensively either...

well when only 1 in the conversation is a defenseman, then yeah it kinda matters

Karlsson racking up points was a function of "someone's gotta score the goals on a bad team" as much as it was about his skill level. Karlsson went to SJ and his elite production disappeared.

 

[Michael Farkas]

A defenseman who is a 3 or 4 out of 10 at defense (unlike now where he's a 1) and a 10 out of 10 at offense compares less favorably to a winger who is a 0 out of 10 at defense and a 9 or 10 out of 10 at offense? That's a tough one to reconcile.

And the idea that a defenseman is a "bad team scorer" is really a weak argument. These are the ones that I don't get it...this isn't Reed Larson where some of us would have to go back and try to remember what was happening 40 years ago. Erik Karlsson just took over the entire league like 20, 30 minutes ago on the hockey clock haha - why would anyone think they can get away with this?

Karlsson got 25 goals out of fourth liner Zack Smith - it's more than a quarter of the goals he'd score in his 10 year career. He didn't get to that many goals in junior...

He led the league in assists. He was 4th in the entire NHL in scoring (against Kane, Crosby, Thornton, etc.),. As a d-man, on a team with one first line caliber forward, 2.5 or 3 second liners, zero top-4 d-men besides himself, a goalie who is the model of inconsistency and no other NHL caliber goalies on the roster. With a coach who was in his first and last full season as an NHL head coach.

I don't think folks are realizing what a bad situation he was in...the fact that he made a historical amount of chicken salad out of what could be charitably described as chicken feathers is incredible...

Maybe you were looking for the Norm Maciver thread...?

 

[bobbyking]

watched the last couple sharks games.. Karlsson is still super sharp with the puck in the o zone.. he can absolutely challenge for the Norris again if he puts it back together

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, he's been resurgent this year. I don't think he ends up adding anything to his resume the rest of the way...and San Jose seems intent on not being relevant for the foreseeable future, which doesn't help...

 

[The Macho Man]

A defenseman who is a 3 or 4 out of 10 at defense (unlike now where he's a 1) and a 10 out of 10 at offense compares less favorably to a winger who is a 0 out of 10 at defense and a 9 or 10 out of 10 at offense? That's a tough one to reconcile.

And the idea that a defenseman is a "bad team scorer" is really a weak argument. These are the ones that I don't get it...this isn't Reed Larson where some of us would have to go back and try to remember what was happening 40 years ago. Erik Karlsson just took over the entire league like 20, 30 minutes ago on the hockey clock haha - why would anyone think they can get away with this?

Karlsson got 25 goals out of fourth liner Zack Smith - it's more than a quarter of the goals he'd score in his 10 year career. He didn't get to that many goals in junior...

He led the league in assists. He was 4th in the entire NHL in scoring (against Kane, Crosby, Thornton, etc.),. As a d-man, on a team with one first line caliber forward, 2.5 or 3 second liners, zero top-4 d-men besides himself, a goalie who is the model of inconsistency and no other NHL caliber goalies on the roster. With a coach who was in his first and last full season as an NHL head coach.

I don't think folks are realizing what a bad situation he was in...the fact that he made a historical amount of chicken salad out of what could be charitably described as chicken feathers is incredible...

Maybe you were looking for the Norm Maciver thread...?

I think this is overstating it a bit. Methot was a legit good Dman and a great partner chemistry-wise with EK.