How skilled was Paul Kariya?

[Troubadour]

...Which is another way of saying that while Teemu was still adjusting to his new environment, Paul was running the show. Kariya clearly outscored Selänne from Feb. 6th onward. It wasn't until 1996-97 that Teemu regained his prime Winnipeg form and the two became the telepathic duo we remember. Plus Teemu too had some difficult seasons prior to that trade. His goalscoring in particular hadn't come near his rookie year until he was traded: he was pacing for less than half a goal per game for the third season in a row until he was paired with Kariya. In the long run, both players benefited from that trade.

Or -- that Kariya was the main benefactor.

At least once we base our theories on what we know rather than assume (because it actually happened):

Selanne posted good/great/phenomenal numbers before, with, and after Kariya, depending on his health, while Kariya without Selanne was Palffy on the Isles, at his actual best.

Also, they hit it off pretty much from the get-go and they already were one of the big stories in spring 96. Kariya scoring fifty was a big deal. No-one expected that (before the trade).

 

[Sampe from the 2000s]

Or -- that Kariya was the main benefactor.

At least once we base our theories on what we know rather than assume (because it actually happened):

Selanne posted good/great/phenomenal numbers before, with, and after Kariya, depending on his health, while Kariya without Selanne was Palffy on the Isles, at his actual best.

Also, they hit it off pretty much from the get-go and they already were one of the big stories in spring 96. Kariya scoring fifty was a big deal. No-one expected that (before the trade).

I do remember the hype (the claims of what happened), but the data (what actually happened) does not support it. Based on the data (the facts) it was Kariya who initially drove the play, and it was Teemu who played a facilitating role. Teemu did benefit from Paul's passes though, which is why his goalscoring at ES instantly improved. But Kariya had twice as many ES assists, more ES point, more primary assists, more primary points, and six game winners to Teemu's one. No doubt Paul was invigorated from the trade, but he also helped others score the most that spring.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Love the revisionist history on the Kariya / Selanne thing.

Like I always say in these threads, Kariya was better and still improving before the injuries started piling up. It sounds a bit crazy to say in comparison to Selanne, but Kariya was a more dynamic and rounded offensive player. As it turned out, Selanne had a better career and now people think he was better.

 

[authentic]

Love the revisionist history on the Kariya / Selanne thing.

Like I always say in these threads, Kariya was better and still improving before the injuries started piling up. It sounds a bit crazy to say in comparison to Selanne, but Kariya was a more dynamic and rounded offensive player. As it turned out, Selanne had a better career and now people think he was better.

I don’t disagree with this entirely but I just am not sure it’s a fact he was better than Selanne though. Selanne ultimately had a higher offensive peak before and during his time playing with Kariya, was better internationally, then had a better post-lockout career and peak after all their injuries despite being older.

 

[gary69]

Love the revisionist history on the Kariya / Selanne thing.

Like I always say in these threads, Kariya was better and still improving before the injuries started piling up. It sounds a bit crazy to say in comparison to Selanne, but Kariya was a more dynamic and rounded offensive player. As it turned out, Selanne had a better career and now people think he was better.

I remember reading some Selanne interviews from the Finnish press in the late 90s where he said that Kariya was a better player than him. Also remember seeing stories of him likewise admitting after Nagano that Bure was better than him as well at that time.

Of course injuries happened afterwards and Selanne finished his career much better than those two, to have a greater overall career.

 

[The Panther]

I would rate them about even at their respective bests, but of course Selanne had more top-level seasons and a longer career.

Anyway, in 1995-96, it can be seen that Kariya -- who was in only his first full NHL season -- was already reaching a 100-point scoring pace before Selanne was acquired. And we know what Selanne did in 1992-93. There is no doubt that both could be elite without the other.

Nashville Kariya deserves more love. Oh, and Kariya should have been on the 2006 Olympic team.

 

[Troubadour]

Love the revisionist history on the Kariya / Selanne thing.

Like I always say in these threads, Kariya was better and still improving before the injuries started piling up. It sounds a bit crazy to say in comparison to Selanne, but Kariya was a more dynamic and rounded offensive player. As it turned out, Selanne had a better career and now people think he was better.

I thought Selanne was better even then, for the most part. Of course there were stretches where Kariya played better, even long ones. I too thought he was gonna be better by 97, but in reality, his talent was overblown and expectations inflated due to Selanne.

I don’t disagree with this entirely but I just am not sure it’s a fact he was better than Selanne though. Selanne ultimately had a higher offensive peak before and during his time playing with Kariya, was better internationally, then had a better post-lockout career and peak after all their injuries despite being older.

He wasn't. Subjectively, anyone could prefer either of them, but objectively, nothing separated Kariya from Selanne to the extent that justifies kicking the door open and proclaiming Kariya better and anyone who disagrees a revisionist.

I do remember the hype (the claims of what happened), but the data (what actually happened) does not support it. Based on the data (the facts) it was Kariya who initially drove the play, and it was Teemu who played a facilitating role. Teemu did benefit from Paul's passes though, which is why his goalscoring at ES instantly improved. But Kariya had twice as many ES assists, more ES point, more primary assists, more primary points, and six game winners to Teemu's one. No doubt Paul was invigorated from the trade, but he also helped others score the most that spring.

If you look at Kariya's 95/96 season on a game to game basis, you will see that from the game one of the season till about December 6, he scored at a rate that was pretty much identical to the rate at which he scored from December 7 till February 6.

The first stretch was good enough for being the 13th best in the league, the second one was the 23rd best league-wide.

Then, something changed. Must have been the weather, haha.

If you actually go through the scoring logs, you will see that literally the same percentage of the goals scored by Selanne had Kariya with a primary assist as vice versa, the only exception being that Kariya had longer stretches of points that involved Selanne than Selanne had with Kariya involved. You will also note that at one point, Selanne had a primary assist on 5 Kariya's goals in a row.

What we know is that after Selanne trade, Kariya got better. And Selanne slightly worse.

None of which has anything to do with my original point -- that expectations of Kariya were inflated due to Selanne, which does not require Selanne to be the better player at all.

The league was never as devoid of talent as it would have needed to be for a guy like Kariya to be the most talented and the best player, and these are the superlatives he received for a while. Didn't make sense then, and it makes even less now, watching his highlights.

 

[authentic]

I thought Selanne was better even then, for the most part. Of course there were stretches where Kariya played better, even long ones. I too thought he was gonna be better by 97, but in reality, his talent was overblown and expectations inflated due to Selanne.



He wasn't. Subjectively, anyone could prefer either of them, but objectively, nothing separated Kariya from Selanne to the extent that justifies kicking the door open and proclaiming Kariya better and anyone who disagrees a revisionist.



If you look at Kariya's 95/96 season on a game to game basis, you will see that from the game one of the season till about December 6, he scored at a rate that was pretty much identical to the rate at which he scored from December 7 till February 6.

The first stretch was good enough for being the 13th best in the league, the second one was the 23rd best league-wide.

Then, something changed. Must have been the weather, haha.

If you actually go through the scoring logs, you will see that literally the same percentage of the goals scored by Selanne had Kariya with a primary assist as vice versa, the only exception being that Kariya had longer stretches of points that involved Selanne than Selanne had with Kariya involved. You will also note that at one point, Selanne had a primary assist on 5 Kariya's goals in a row.

What we know is that after Selanne trade, Kariya got better. And Selanne slightly worse.

None of which has anything to do with my original point -- that expectations of Kariya were inflated due to Selanne, which does not require Selanne to be the better player at all.

The league was never as devoid of talent as it would have needed to be for a guy like Kariya to be the most talented and the best player, and these are the superlatives he received for a while. Didn't make sense then, and it makes even less now, watching his highlights.

Kariya was the more exciting player. Both were equal at best during most of their time together but really Selanne was the better player if you had to pick one, stats don’t lie and neither brought anything substantial beyond offense.

 

[Gerulaitis]

From what I remember,:
Kariya was more skilled.
Selanne was more efficient

 

[The Panther]

1995-96 through 2005-06:

1.09 PPG -- Kariya
1.04 PPG -- Selanne

Selanne had a marginally higher goals-per-game over this 11-year period, but only by a tiny degree.

(If you stretch the comparative period out to 2007-08, their PPG is exactly identical, at 1.04).

As I said before, the only difference in how productive they were as scorers is Selanne's 1992-93 season, and the fact that he played a lot longer. Kariya's last really great season was 2006-07, and then his final three seasons with St. Louis were largely forgettable. (Speaking of which, did you know Kariya played against Victor Hedman and John Carlson in the NHL? Seems weird to me.)

 

[Johnny Engine]

Correct me if I'm misreading the thread, but one thing that seems like it's gone unmentioned about the before/after February 1996, is that Selanne traded in Keith Tkachuk as a linemate for Paul Kariya, while Kariya got Selanne instead of Todd Krygier. That's a small talent upgrade and a better stylistic fit for Teemu, but a vast improvement for Kariya.

 

[Cruor]

I get that they shake out about even in terms of counting stats but I always felt Selänne was a bit more one dimensional as a player. Kariya I think was destined for great things when Suter ended that.

 

[Sampe from the 2000s]

Correct me if I'm misreading the thread, but one thing that seems like it's gone unmentioned about the before/after February 1996, is that Selanne traded in Keith Tkachuk as a linemate for Paul Kariya, while Kariya got Selanne instead of Todd Krygier. That's a small talent upgrade and a better stylistic fit for Teemu, but a vast improvement for Kariya.

Indeed. Tkachuk even outscored Selänne from Feb. 6th onwards, despite Anaheim getting the best player in the short (and even long) run. But Kariya outscored both, albeit PF Tkachuk was the best of the three at ES:

Kariya 30.22+16+7=45.12+3 (ES 11+12; PP 10+10; sh 1+1; 2 OTG; 6 GWG; 117 SOG)
Tkachuk 29.19+17+5=41.79+7 (ES 12+13; PP 6+9; SH 1+0; 0 OTG; 1 GWG; 126 SOG)
Selänne 28.16+12+8=36.4+2 (ES 13+6; PP 3+14; 0 OTG; 1 GWG; 104 SOG)

So it looks like Kariya was invigorated (got better and remained his team's MVP), Tkachuk was at his best with increased role in Teemu's absence, while Selänne was still adjusting. Then from the fall of 1996 onward Teemu found his groove and matched Paul in offensive efficiency for the next few years. Never in entertainment value though IMHO.

I never really paid much attention to Kariya's defensive game. But for what it's worth, blocks were recorded from '97-98 onward and Kariya seemed to beat Selänne each year: 6+67+37+29 vs. 2+17+19+10 (only counting the 22 games together from '97-98). He also had the better +/- most of the time (they were evenly matched in '98-99). Hits were all over the place: initially Paul was more physical until 1999, then Teemu for the next two seasons. But while Rucchin took care of most of the defensive duties on the first line, Kariya seems to have been a better two-way player than Selänne. This makes sense as I can remember far too many controller disconnected moments from Teemu.

One underrated aspect of Teemu's game was his ability to use his teammates on the ice. Whether it was with Keijo Säilynoja and Otakar Janecky for Jokerit, with Mika Nieminen in the 1991 and 1996 World Champioships, with Phil Housley for Winnipeg, with Jere Lehtinen and Saku Koivu in the 1998 All-Star Game and all best-on-best tournaments thereafter, or with Kariya for Anaheim, Selänne made things work almost every time, both goalscoring and playmaking wise. He may not have been as creative a passer as Kariya, but he found a way to make the right play in the right place at the right time. His defensive engagement was lacking at times, but offensively he was a consistently great team player. This is something where I think he was better than, say, Pavel Bure.

 

[Video Nasty]

Prestigious enough to be in Pond of Dreams.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Indeed. Tkachuk even outscored Selänne from Feb. 6th onwards, despite Anaheim getting the best player in the short (and even long) run. But Kariya outscored both, albeit PF Tkachuk was the best of the three at ES:

Kariya 30.22+16+7=45.12+3 (ES 11+12; PP 10+10; sh 1+1; 2 OTG; 6 GWG; 117 SOG)
Tkachuk 29.19+17+5=41.79+7 (ES 12+13; PP 6+9; SH 1+0; 0 OTG; 1 GWG; 126 SOG)
Selänne 28.16+12+8=36.4+2 (ES 13+6; PP 3+14; 0 OTG; 1 GWG; 104 SOG)

Unfairly leaving Todd Krygier out of this comparison.